S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
Excellent question!
Don’t think you’ll get an answer. It’s a old debate tatic, act like the question was never asked. Then there isn’t a wrong answer given.
- Status
Don’t think you’ll get an answer. It’s a old debate tatic, act like the question was never asked. Then there isn’t a wrong answer given.
A
Antonius_Lupus
Guest
Yes, I did. As A former Calvinist I DID believe in it. However it was, and is, a flawed argument.
Why, because of the way St. Paul uses the Greek word for Faith (Infinitive form: pitis). More on that tommorow, I’ve got Physics class.
I assure you I used to be a devout Calvinist, only until I saw the inaccuracies in Calvin’s work: “Institutio”.
R
Reformed1
Guest
enjoyinggodministries.com/article.asp?id=550
Read through the rather short essay and whether or not you agree with the conclusion, you will at least have the answer you and your friend so strongly desire.
A
apophasis
Guest
Antonius Lupus:
Rom. 3:10-18 is a quote from the Psalms, which is considered as part of the Law, but as we can see God applies its general condemnation to ALL men, both Jews and Gentiles. Every mouth is stopped before Him. Men, especially religious men, keep talking about their own goodness (works), or someone else’s badness - like the Pharisee in Lk. 18. But the moral history of mankind delineated in Romans chapter one; and the stern principles of God’s judgments which considered neither man’s high notion of himself, nor his religious profession, as shown in chapter two; and now in chapter three with the fourteen sweeping statements (vss. 10-14), concerning the WHOLE guilty human race, and with the double conviction of Jews (bound to the Law) as not only sinners but also transgressors of the very Law they gloried in – ALL STOPS MEN’S VAIN MOUTHS! All are brought into the presence of their Judge, and the divine sentence of “guilty” is upon the ALL (Jew and Gentile alike).
Not to have their just penalty executed upon them; but that they may be SILENT while God (their Judge) announces a most astonishing thing – that He has Himself already dealt with the world’s sin upon a sin-offering, Jesus, His Son; Whom He has set forth as at the cross as a righteous meeting-ground between Himself in all His holiness and righteousness; and the sinner (both Jew or Gentile), in all his guilt, through simple FAITH in the shed blood of this righteous REDEEMER!
So now in Romans 3:20 Paul declares what the Law could not do and what it could do. No one can be declared righteous (justified) in God’s sight by “works of the Law,” but rather the divine purpose of it was to make known to men their SIN, and therefore their dire need of salvation - LIFE, which no law could impart.
In fact, Paul goes on to show that salvation/justification is based on a different principle altogether - divine GRACE.Rom. 3:21-24 "But now apart from law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:27-30 “Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. Or is God {the God} of Jews only? Is He not {the God} of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also (who were never under law), since indeed God who will justify the circumcised (Jews) by faith and the uncircumcised (Gentiles) through faith is one.” (emphasis mine)As I pointed out more than once in this thread, in Rom. 4 Paul cites two men, Abraham and David; the former born before the Law existed, and the latter born under it. BOTH justified “apart from works” of any kind, and by faith alone. Abraham represents all the Gentiles who were never under the Law, and David the Jews who were bound to it. BOTH reckoned righteous by their FAITH alone, apart from works. Now certainly works may follow, but divinely, reckoned righteousness, Paul emphatically teaches, is based on faith alone. And this teaching is not new to Scripture, but goes way back to Gen. 15:6 where Abraham is reckoned righteous by God based on his faith in Him. And Scripture calls Abraham the father of all who believe (Rom. 4:16). The Holy Spirit knows what He’s talking about. Unbelieving men, however, never cease in their efforts to distort Him.
The irony being that this glorious teaching on justification through faith alone was originally addressed to the church of Rome for its edification, but it’s the church of Rome that now vehemently refuses to believe it, and anathemize any who do.
No he’s not. You must go back to Roman three for the context. Paul builds his argument for justification through FAITH in Romans two, citing both Gentiles, who had not the Law, and Jews who were “under the Law” and bound to it. And speaking of Jews who had the Law (the expressed will of God in covenant form) he asks, "What then, are we (Jews) better than they (Gentiles)? "Not at all, for we have charged that BOTH Jews and Greeks (Gentiles) are UNDER SIN (i.e., in their natural state; as it is written, “There is NONE righteous, no not one…”)
Rom. 3:10-18 is a quote from the Psalms, which is considered as part of the Law, but as we can see God applies its general condemnation to ALL men, both Jews and Gentiles. Every mouth is stopped before Him. Men, especially religious men, keep talking about their own goodness (works), or someone else’s badness - like the Pharisee in Lk. 18. But the moral history of mankind delineated in Romans chapter one; and the stern principles of God’s judgments which considered neither man’s high notion of himself, nor his religious profession, as shown in chapter two; and now in chapter three with the fourteen sweeping statements (vss. 10-14), concerning the WHOLE guilty human race, and with the double conviction of Jews (bound to the Law) as not only sinners but also transgressors of the very Law they gloried in – ALL STOPS MEN’S VAIN MOUTHS! All are brought into the presence of their Judge, and the divine sentence of “guilty” is upon the ALL (Jew and Gentile alike).
Not to have their just penalty executed upon them; but that they may be SILENT while God (their Judge) announces a most astonishing thing – that He has Himself already dealt with the world’s sin upon a sin-offering, Jesus, His Son; Whom He has set forth as at the cross as a righteous meeting-ground between Himself in all His holiness and righteousness; and the sinner (both Jew or Gentile), in all his guilt, through simple FAITH in the shed blood of this righteous REDEEMER!
So now in Romans 3:20 Paul declares what the Law could not do and what it could do. No one can be declared righteous (justified) in God’s sight by “works of the Law,” but rather the divine purpose of it was to make known to men their SIN, and therefore their dire need of salvation - LIFE, which no law could impart.
In fact, Paul goes on to show that salvation/justification is based on a different principle altogether - divine GRACE.Rom. 3:21-24 "But now apart from law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:27-30 “Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. Or is God {the God} of Jews only? Is He not {the God} of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also (who were never under law), since indeed God who will justify the circumcised (Jews) by faith and the uncircumcised (Gentiles) through faith is one.” (emphasis mine)As I pointed out more than once in this thread, in Rom. 4 Paul cites two men, Abraham and David; the former born before the Law existed, and the latter born under it. BOTH justified “apart from works” of any kind, and by faith alone. Abraham represents all the Gentiles who were never under the Law, and David the Jews who were bound to it. BOTH reckoned righteous by their FAITH alone, apart from works. Now certainly works may follow, but divinely, reckoned righteousness, Paul emphatically teaches, is based on faith alone. And this teaching is not new to Scripture, but goes way back to Gen. 15:6 where Abraham is reckoned righteous by God based on his faith in Him. And Scripture calls Abraham the father of all who believe (Rom. 4:16). The Holy Spirit knows what He’s talking about. Unbelieving men, however, never cease in their efforts to distort Him.
The irony being that this glorious teaching on justification through faith alone was originally addressed to the church of Rome for its edification, but it’s the church of Rome that now vehemently refuses to believe it, and anathemize any who do.
A
apophasis
Guest
Antonius Lupus:
This side of the cross, Antonius, you need to begin where Paul begins: at the cross and divine GRACE.
"…it is the power of God for salvation to every one who BELIEVES, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righeousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “but the righteousn man shall live by faith” (Rom. 1:16-17).
But you are not unlike “former Protestants” who never did grasp the grace of God revealed to us in the Scriptures. And for this reason a “good patristic library,” “a good grasp of Greek,” and being a self-proclaimed “historian of church history” are rendered useless when interpreting them, and therefore “dangerous.”
This side of the cross, Antonius, you need to begin where Paul begins: at the cross and divine GRACE.
"…it is the power of God for salvation to every one who BELIEVES, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righeousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “but the righteousn man shall live by faith” (Rom. 1:16-17).
M
mikeledes
Guest
Tha Bible clearly states that anyone in Christ is a new creation. The branches referred to in John 15 are “In Christ” (i.e. "any branch In ME, “does not abide in me.” You cannot be “in Christ” (i.e. part of the Vine and hence be a branch of the vine), unless you have true justifying faith. Superficial faith can deceive humans, but it cannot deceive God. God does not unite you to Christ and then say, “Oops, your faith is not true faith so I’ll have to take you away from the Vine.” If it wasn’t real justifying faith to begin with, you wouldn’t be a branch of the Vine in the first place.
Secondly, John 15:6 states that the branch is cut off and withers. In order for something to “wither,” it must have had life to begin with. A person who is spiritually dead never had spiritual life to begin with because he was never “In Christ.” The reason why the branch withers was because the branch received life from the Vine. Once the branch is cut off (no longer in Christ), then it withers (spiritually dies) and it is thrown into the fire (eternal damnation).
The expression “thrown into the fire,” is always used in the Bible as a reference to eternal damnation (Matthew 3:10-12, Matt. 13:40-42, 49-50, 18:8-9, Revelation 20:14-15).
Finally, Jesus says that if “any one does not abide in me etc.” or "If anyone does not remain in me. In order to remain in Christ you must have been “In Christ” in the first place. You cannot remain in something that you were never a part of. That’s like me telling you “Remain in my house.” How can you “remain” in my house if you were not in my house in the first place.
The interpretation that the branches were not “true believers” does not hold water because because if they were not true believers they would not have been a branch in the first place and they would not have been in Christ.
2 Corinthians 5;17
“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation…”
Being “in Christ” is always used in the Bible as the equivalent of being truly justified, truly righteous before God. A branch that is in Christ (i.e. "in Me) can only refer to someone who has truly been justified. Humans make mistakes and can be deceived, but God neither makes mistakes and is not deceived. He does not unite us to Christ (i.e “In Christ”, “Branch in Me”, "Remain in Me’) unless you had true justifying faith. Otherwise, you would never have been a “branch in Me.”
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
This is a quote from the essay provided by Reformed1. Most of the arguments it makes I have addressed in my previous post. The argument above is a very interesting way of looking at John 15. Too bad it doesn’t hold water. Let’s read John 15:4-5:
“Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the Vine, neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in Him, bears much fruit; for without me you can do nothing.”
How can the “in Me” refer not to the position of the Branch but the process of “fruit-bearing” when a branch **has to be part of the vine in order to produce fruit? (Read above verses) In other words, the “in Me” refers to the position of the Branch (i.e. part of the Vine), not to its bearing of fruit. It cannot be considered a “branch” unless it is part of a Vine. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be a branch to begin with. Moreover, a branch cannot be taken way (John 15:2) unless it was part of the Vine to begin with. This is just plain common sense and is based on the basic rules of grammar and semantics.
All the other verses this article quotes does not support eternal security. Jesus cannot lose any of us nor can Satan forcefully snatch us away,* if *we continue to abide in Christ. If we chose to not remain in Christ, then we are losing ourselves and willingly giving ouselves to Satan. But if we willingly remain in Christ, He will neither lose us not let Satan snatch us away.
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
Also, Romans 4 and all other similar passages are referring to the first stage of salvation, that is, when we are first made rigteous before God. It is not talking about the final stage of salvation, glorification. Justification is what gives us a birthright to glorification, it qualifies us to inherit eternal life. You, however, are taking what Paul says and overextending its meaning. You are reading into it more than what it is actually saying. We do not become righteous by our works or even our faith and works. Works have nothing to do with becoming righteous before God. I don’t know how many times I have to say that before you get the point. However, how do we remain righteous and thus be glorified? By grace through faith working through love.
God Bless
Michael
God Bless
Michael
M
mrs_abbott
Guest
This is interesting . . . and makes sense too!
:yup:
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
Where do you have the grounds to make such a distinction?
Here is some more context:10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. 11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness. 14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
2 Peter 3
A persons spiritual walk is inseprable from the salvation equation. This passage is all about living Godly lives WHILE there is still time, Peter is warning of the fiery punishment for not living holy and Godly lives.
Im on “dangerous ground”? Look at your position your theology has been so narrowly defined that it rests upon the term “THEN”???..and even then the USAGE of “then” is being narrowly defined.
On top of that out of the 5 translations I checked only one started Gen 15:6 with the word “Then”, the others say “and”, “Abraham”, etc.
Scripture talks about faith ALL THE TIME and doesnt go into such narrow definitions, and as I said earlier by your logic hardly anyone in the Bible was justified.
Ok, present a good case.
(cont)
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
(Cont)
Your job now is to define faith and from there prove Heb 11 doesnt fit the definition.
Here is what Hebrews 11 says about faith:1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for. 3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. … 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Your definition of faith cant include “hoping for what you dont see”, “believing God created the world”, “believing without faith God wont be pleased”, “believing God exists” and “believing God rewards those who obey Him”.
Whats MORE INTERESTING, lets step back to good old Romans 4:3What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Now why “was it credited as righteousness”? Romans 4 GOES ONTO explicitly explain:18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead.20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness."
Now BACK to Hebews 11:11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
This is exactly the same situation Abraham was in in Gen 15: 4 Then the word of the LORD came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir.” 5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
It is the same event as mentioned both in Rom 4 and Heb 11, in both cases it says it was by faith. So yes Hebrews 11 is talking about the salvific faith Abraham had.
Are you sure its only about rewards or no rewards:20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21**"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father** who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
24**“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.** 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
ITs all or nothing here
Its not talking about salvation/justification? Thats a TALL ORDER and I dont think youll be able to fill it, I dont think a single respectable protestant pastor would go that far.
Your job now is to define faith and from there prove Heb 11 doesnt fit the definition.
Here is what Hebrews 11 says about faith:1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for. 3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. … 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Your definition of faith cant include “hoping for what you dont see”, “believing God created the world”, “believing without faith God wont be pleased”, “believing God exists” and “believing God rewards those who obey Him”.
Whats MORE INTERESTING, lets step back to good old Romans 4:3What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Now why “was it credited as righteousness”? Romans 4 GOES ONTO explicitly explain:18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead.20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness."
Now BACK to Hebews 11:11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
This is exactly the same situation Abraham was in in Gen 15: 4 Then the word of the LORD came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir.” 5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
It is the same event as mentioned both in Rom 4 and Heb 11, in both cases it says it was by faith. So yes Hebrews 11 is talking about the salvific faith Abraham had.
Are you sure its only about rewards or no rewards:20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21**"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father** who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
24**“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.** 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
ITs all or nothing here
M
mikeledes
Guest
I think we need to settle this once and for all. Romans 4, and all other related passages, are simply talking about how we first become righteous before God. How do we go from being ungodly to being righteous (i.e. justified)? He makes it very clear. It is by faith, apart from works. However, it is speecifically talking about all works -whether ritual or moral - PRIOR to justification. The point is that no work can make us righteous before God. If it could, then we would have no need of a Savior. However, Paul is not commenting on the role of works in our salvation AFTER we have been justified. This is covered by Romans 2:26-28, 1 Corinthians 7:19, John 15:2,6, Mathew 7:21, James 2:24, and a whole host of Bible passages.
In addition, nowhere does it state in Romans 4, or any other passage that specifically talks about justification, that being justified is an eternal, and hence permanent, state. That is is just an inference drawn from these passages, an inference that is
contradicted by other passages, that is, if these passages are read without strange redefinitions that violate basic rules of grammar and semantics or unreasonably complicated explanations.
God Bless,
Michael
In addition, nowhere does it state in Romans 4, or any other passage that specifically talks about justification, that being justified is an eternal, and hence permanent, state. That is is just an inference drawn from these passages, an inference that is
contradicted by other passages, that is, if these passages are read without strange redefinitions that violate basic rules of grammar and semantics or unreasonably complicated explanations.
God Bless,
Michael
A
apophasis
Guest
You have just negated, nullified, neutralized the cross of Christ and made “fruit bearing” the determining factor of salvation. And you have based your whole soteriology on an allegory. The allegory is about how His disciples could “bear fruit,” not how they could solidify their salvation. You’re missing the point completely of both the allegory and the cross.
M
mikeledes
Guest
And you have nullified the entire message of the Bible based on an extremely narrow interpretation of Romans 4. I did not make fruitbearing the determining factor in salvation. That is clearly stated by Jon 15:2, 6. Indeed, this is an allegory. Jesus is not really a Vine and we are not really branches. But the brances are removed from the vine because they did not bear fruit and did not abide in Christ. Where did they go? Thrown into the fire? Why? Because they did not bear fruit (good works) and abide in the vine. This is a clear example of God judging us by our works (Romans 2;26-28, Revelation 20:13). The problem is that you are so intent on defending Protestant doctrine that you are unwilling to see the whole Gospel of Christ and cannot fathom how a verse can contradict you. Yes, it is an allegory. But this allegory expresses a literal truth, a literal truth you are unwilling to face at any cost. And that truth is that those “in Christ” (i.e. "In Me, Abide In Me) who do not bear fruit (good works and keeping the commandments) will be cut off and thrown into the fire (eternal damnation).
God Bless,
MIchael
P.S. My Soteriology, by the way, I have based on the entire New Testament (Matthew to Revelation). I have backed what I have said with a striaghtforward reading of Scripture and have reconciled passages that, for a Protestant, may appear to contradict, but for a Catholic they perfectly fit into a greater whole, without having to use anything other than a straightforward interpretation of the texts in question. I challenge you to read my posts and show me where I have done otherwise.
A
apophasis
Guest
This is “Catholic” theology imposed upon the Scripture. The text neither says or implies anything about a “first stage” of salvation.
Rom 8:28-32 "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to {His} purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God {is} for us, who {is} against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?Michael, divine salvation is a complete package based on the “redemption which is in Christ Jesus.” Not only are the believer’s sins forgiven, but he is a “new creation,” having a new identity being “in Christ,” “made righeous.” The believer does not float in and out of Christ any more than an unbeliever can float in and out of Adam. This is totally nonsensical and certainly nonbiblical.
No it doesn’t. As shown above it is God Himself who will freely glorify those whom HE freely justified through faith in Christ (see also Phil. 3:20-21; 1 Jn. 3:1-2). It’s belief in Christ that causes one to HAVE eternal life. This is basic salvation 101:John 3:14-18 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.The believer, at the time of belief, “inherits” eternal life through the death of Christ. One does not receive an inheritance at the end of his life, but because of the death of another. The true believer HAS eternal life - NOW (Jn. 5:24). For this reason the future resurrection and glorification of his yet unredeemd body is certain. Through Christ, God saves the whole man: body, soul and spirit.
S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
Again, very ironic statement. Ironic, a nice way to put it.
Your own words are more true for your own misconceived traditions of men.
A
apophasis
Guest
Thank you “mrs_abbott.” If it makes sense to you then it is not flesh and blood that revealed this glorious truth of justification by faith alone to you, but your Father in heaven, to the glory of Christ.This is interesting . . . and makes sense too!
A
Antonius_Lupus
Guest
Dear brother Apophasis,
How’s about we take a closer look at Romans 4:4:
"Now to the one who works (ergo) his wages (opsonion) are not reckoned (logizomai) as a gift, but as his due (opheilemon).
The key to understanding this verse rests on two vital points:
In Romans 2:6-7, look at how St. Paul uses the word “ergo”:
“For he (i.e. God) will render to every man according to his works (ergo), for those who by patience in well-doing (ergon) seek for honor, immortality, and glory, he will give eternal life.”
Clearly, St. Paul is not speaking of the same “works”. If he was the Bible would be in error.
Now, when I was a “Bible Christian” I used to say that in Romans 2:6-7, St. Paul was speaking hypothetically, id est, St. Paul says that if everybody’s perfect, God will reward them. That is the typical Evangelical explanation.
However it is easily refuted (As I found out painfully) when one looks at the verb in Greek for “patience in well-doing”. The verb “ergo” here is in present progressive. Essentially St. Paul says that those who persevere in good-works, will be justified.
Hence, St. Paul is certainly not speaking of good-works in Romans 4:4-6. He therefore must be speaking of another type of works, which he goes on to define:
In Romans 4:4-6 St. Paul states: "his wages (opsonion) are not reckoned (logizomai) as a gift but as his due (opheilemon.)
The Greek word “opsonion” is used in Luke 3:14 to refer to the pay that a soldier recieves in his service. In other words, St. Paul uses this word here to describe what is given in return for “he who works (ergo)”.
Yet the next Greek noun is “opheilemon” which is translated best as “a debt”.
St. Paul is saying that he who works in indebted to that work, and does not recieve the gifts of good wages (opsonion).
So, the question remains, why would St. Paul (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) write that our works (ergo) are reckoned as debt (opheilemon) when he uses the same word for works (ergo) in Romans 2:4-6???
Obviously (to any unbiased reader of course) he is speaking of a system of works (ergon) that make us debtors (opheilemon). What sysem is that: the Mosaic Law (Galatians 3).
That is what we mean as Catholics when we say a “Grace-filled” relationship with Jesus. When we first turn to Christ, we are in a system of debt (opheilemon), yet through the work of the Holy Spirit in the new-birth wrought by Baptism (John 3:5, Romans 6:24, Colossians 2:13-14, 1 Peter 3:21, Heb. 10:22); we are put into a “grace-filled” relationship with God, because we are participating in a mystical way, in Jesus’ Once-and-for-all sacrifice at Calvary.
This baptismal regeneration is wrought by the Triune God; it is solely an act of unconditional love it cannot be earned by works (Titus 3:5)! That is why St. Paul says:
8: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God –
9: not because of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-10).
Yet now we have been freed from the endless cycle of debt, and hence, death by the Law of Moses. Now we are in a system of Grace (charis) that **only **(I stress this) come from the finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross.
In this state of Love and Grace, we are in a position to work out our salvation by fear and trembling, not by ourselves alone, but by the santifying power of God the Holy Spirit within us (Philippians 2:12-13).
Peace brother
How’s about we take a closer look at Romans 4:4:
"Now to the one who works (ergo) his wages (opsonion) are not reckoned (logizomai) as a gift, but as his due (opheilemon).
The key to understanding this verse rests on two vital points:
- The context of the verse apropos Romans 4:4-6
- St. Paul’s use of the Koine Greek dialect.
In Romans 2:6-7, look at how St. Paul uses the word “ergo”:
“For he (i.e. God) will render to every man according to his works (ergo), for those who by patience in well-doing (ergon) seek for honor, immortality, and glory, he will give eternal life.”
Clearly, St. Paul is not speaking of the same “works”. If he was the Bible would be in error.
Now, when I was a “Bible Christian” I used to say that in Romans 2:6-7, St. Paul was speaking hypothetically, id est, St. Paul says that if everybody’s perfect, God will reward them. That is the typical Evangelical explanation.
However it is easily refuted (As I found out painfully) when one looks at the verb in Greek for “patience in well-doing”. The verb “ergo” here is in present progressive. Essentially St. Paul says that those who persevere in good-works, will be justified.
Hence, St. Paul is certainly not speaking of good-works in Romans 4:4-6. He therefore must be speaking of another type of works, which he goes on to define:
In Romans 4:4-6 St. Paul states: "his wages (opsonion) are not reckoned (logizomai) as a gift but as his due (opheilemon.)
The Greek word “opsonion” is used in Luke 3:14 to refer to the pay that a soldier recieves in his service. In other words, St. Paul uses this word here to describe what is given in return for “he who works (ergo)”.
Yet the next Greek noun is “opheilemon” which is translated best as “a debt”.
St. Paul is saying that he who works in indebted to that work, and does not recieve the gifts of good wages (opsonion).
So, the question remains, why would St. Paul (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) write that our works (ergo) are reckoned as debt (opheilemon) when he uses the same word for works (ergo) in Romans 2:4-6???
Obviously (to any unbiased reader of course) he is speaking of a system of works (ergon) that make us debtors (opheilemon). What sysem is that: the Mosaic Law (Galatians 3).
That is what we mean as Catholics when we say a “Grace-filled” relationship with Jesus. When we first turn to Christ, we are in a system of debt (opheilemon), yet through the work of the Holy Spirit in the new-birth wrought by Baptism (John 3:5, Romans 6:24, Colossians 2:13-14, 1 Peter 3:21, Heb. 10:22); we are put into a “grace-filled” relationship with God, because we are participating in a mystical way, in Jesus’ Once-and-for-all sacrifice at Calvary.
This baptismal regeneration is wrought by the Triune God; it is solely an act of unconditional love it cannot be earned by works (Titus 3:5)! That is why St. Paul says:
8: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God –
9: not because of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-10).
Yet now we have been freed from the endless cycle of debt, and hence, death by the Law of Moses. Now we are in a system of Grace (charis) that **only **(I stress this) come from the finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross.
In this state of Love and Grace, we are in a position to work out our salvation by fear and trembling, not by ourselves alone, but by the santifying power of God the Holy Spirit within us (Philippians 2:12-13).
Peace brother
A
Antonius_Lupus
Guest
Believe it or not, Brother, nothing of what you said contradicts the teachings of the Catholic Church.
A
Antonius_Lupus
Guest
Mrs. Abbot, with all due respect, many things may appear sensible, but are in all veracity: unbiblical.This is interesting . . . and makes sense too!
Peace my sister
- Status