S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
Exactly were in the bible is the phase “at the time of belief” in describing salvation? If it’s not in the bible, why is it part of your tradition?
Will you be judged?
- Status
Will you be judged?
A
Antonius_Lupus
Guest
Ah, yes here comes the infamous “Oh’ you were never “saved” to start with.” line from Evangelicals.
Yet, what do you know of my experience as a Protestant???
You just write me off as a naive seventeen year-old (ignoring of course 1 Timothy 4:12).
You claim I was never really “saved”, and hence I was open prey for clever, devious papists who easily reeled me in by means of Babylonish guile, because I had indeed never “had been saved by grace” and was “not truly a Protestant to begin with.” Boy, where to begin with such inanities!
“To be deep in history is to cease being a Protestant.”
-John Henry Newman
Shalom Brother
M
mikeledes
Guest
When you provide an adequate interpretation of the literal truths -expressed in figurative langguage - stated in John 15, then maybe I can see how what you believe on salvation makes sense. The article provided by Reformed1 explaining this allegory does not hold water. The fact that it is rife with words like “perhaps,” “may,” exposes the flimsy foundations of any other interpretation besides the straightforward one. If the author is not even sure of what he believes and provides too many interpretations, that is a very bad sign. If what this allegory says its true, then your teachings on salvation completely collapse. Please provide a complete and adequate interpretation.
God Bless,
Michael
M
mrs_abbott
Guest
Well, I figure if you have faith and truly follow Christ, you’re bound to have good works and be a good person and get to Heaven.Thank you “mrs_abbott.” If it makes sense to you then it is not flesh and blood that revealed this glorious truth of justification by faith alone to you, but your Father in heaven, to the glory of Christ.
M
mrs_abbott
Guest
Obtaining salvation through faith is not unbiblical.Mrs. Abbot, with all due respect, many things may appear sensible, but are in all veracity: unbiblical.
Peace my sister
A
Antonius_Lupus
Guest
Of course it’s not. But what Apophasis is pushing is un-biblical.
Peace to you my sister
A
Antonius_Lupus
Guest
My brother, you are confusing the difference between Good Works and Faith.
James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.” James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or **any works **which oblige God to give us payment. Here is more proof:
Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 - Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent (“hrvt ysm”) meaning “deeds of the law,” or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.” He uses “ergois agathois.” Therefore, Paul’s “works of the law” and James’ “works” are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.
Rom. 11:6,11 - justification is no longer based on “works” of the law, but on the grace of Christ. Why? Because salvation is also for the Gentiles.
Rom. 15:9-12 - Paul explains that Christ also saves the Gentiles. Therefore, “works of law” are no longer required.
Acts 13:39 - Luke also confirms this by providing that we have been “freed from the law of Moses.” This is the “works of the law” from which we have been freed.
Rom. 11:6 – Paul says that if justification is now based on grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.
Rom. 11:35 - it is impossible to obligate God for payment, and sinful to think we can. We cannot do “works of the law” to obligate God. We are not in a debtor/creditor relationship with God. He owes us nothing. Instead, we are in a Father/child covenant relationship with Him, and He will reward us for being faithful.
Gal. 6:8-9 - the earnings referred to here are from God’s grace. It is a free gift, not an obligation. This underscores that our relationship with God is Father/son and daughter, not employer/employee.
Rom. 8:14-17; Heb. 12:5-11 - these texts further emphasize our father/son relationship with God. Our relationship is familial, not legal.
Rom. 7:6 - we are now discharged from the “law,” that is “works of the law.” We now serve God in faith working in love.
Rom. 10:4 - Christ is the end of the “law.” We are now justified by faith in Christ, not faith in the law.
Rom. 13:8,10 - loving one another is fulfilling the new law of Christ. This is internal and personal, not external and impersonal.
Gal. 2:16 - again, man is not justified by “works of the law.” Again, Paul is referring to the Mosaic law and anything which views God as a debtor to us.
Gal. 2:19,21 - justification “through the law” means justification through the Mosaic law or a legal system that makes God a debtor to us.
Gal. 3:10 – shows that “works of the law” refers to the “book of the law” which was the strict and impersonal Mosaic law of the Old Testament.
Gal. 3:17 - this “law” came 430 years after Abraham. So “works of law” here clearly refer to the Mosaic law, not “good works.”
Gal. 3:13; 4:4-5 - in fact, the “works of the law” (not good works in God’s grace) is a curse from which Christ freed us.
Gal. 3:19 - these “works of law” were only good for showing us our sinfulness, but not teaching us how to live.
Gal. 5:4,14; 6:2 - the “law” is of no use. The new law is the law of Christ, which is faith working through love.
Eph. 2:8-9 - we have been saved by grace through faith, not because of “works,” lest anyone boast. You’ve quoted this verse many times but it refers to the “works” of the Mosaic law or any works performed in a legalistic sense, where we view God as a debtor to us, and not as our heavenly Father. Paul is teaching us that, with the coming of Christ, we are now saved by grace through faith, not by Mosaic or **legal **works.
James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.” James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or **any works **which oblige God to give us payment. Here is more proof:
Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 - Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent (“hrvt ysm”) meaning “deeds of the law,” or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.” He uses “ergois agathois.” Therefore, Paul’s “works of the law” and James’ “works” are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.
Rom. 11:6,11 - justification is no longer based on “works” of the law, but on the grace of Christ. Why? Because salvation is also for the Gentiles.
Rom. 15:9-12 - Paul explains that Christ also saves the Gentiles. Therefore, “works of law” are no longer required.
Acts 13:39 - Luke also confirms this by providing that we have been “freed from the law of Moses.” This is the “works of the law” from which we have been freed.
Rom. 11:6 – Paul says that if justification is now based on grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.
Rom. 11:35 - it is impossible to obligate God for payment, and sinful to think we can. We cannot do “works of the law” to obligate God. We are not in a debtor/creditor relationship with God. He owes us nothing. Instead, we are in a Father/child covenant relationship with Him, and He will reward us for being faithful.
Gal. 6:8-9 - the earnings referred to here are from God’s grace. It is a free gift, not an obligation. This underscores that our relationship with God is Father/son and daughter, not employer/employee.
Rom. 8:14-17; Heb. 12:5-11 - these texts further emphasize our father/son relationship with God. Our relationship is familial, not legal.
Rom. 7:6 - we are now discharged from the “law,” that is “works of the law.” We now serve God in faith working in love.
Rom. 10:4 - Christ is the end of the “law.” We are now justified by faith in Christ, not faith in the law.
Rom. 13:8,10 - loving one another is fulfilling the new law of Christ. This is internal and personal, not external and impersonal.
Gal. 2:16 - again, man is not justified by “works of the law.” Again, Paul is referring to the Mosaic law and anything which views God as a debtor to us.
Gal. 2:19,21 - justification “through the law” means justification through the Mosaic law or a legal system that makes God a debtor to us.
Gal. 3:10 – shows that “works of the law” refers to the “book of the law” which was the strict and impersonal Mosaic law of the Old Testament.
Gal. 3:17 - this “law” came 430 years after Abraham. So “works of law” here clearly refer to the Mosaic law, not “good works.”
Gal. 3:13; 4:4-5 - in fact, the “works of the law” (not good works in God’s grace) is a curse from which Christ freed us.
Gal. 3:19 - these “works of law” were only good for showing us our sinfulness, but not teaching us how to live.
Gal. 5:4,14; 6:2 - the “law” is of no use. The new law is the law of Christ, which is faith working through love.
Eph. 2:8-9 - we have been saved by grace through faith, not because of “works,” lest anyone boast. You’ve quoted this verse many times but it refers to the “works” of the Mosaic law or any works performed in a legalistic sense, where we view God as a debtor to us, and not as our heavenly Father. Paul is teaching us that, with the coming of Christ, we are now saved by grace through faith, not by Mosaic or **legal **works.
M
mikeledes
Guest
Apophasis,
Romans 8:28-32 is not a strict and automatic sequence of events, but a general overview of God’s plan of salvation. If it were, all those who are called would be justified. And yet, Matthew 22:14 states:
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Moreover, Paul in Romans conditions glorification on suffering with Christ and doing good.
Romans 8:17
“And if children, then heirs - heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with him, that we also may [future tense] also be glorified together with Him.”
Romans 2:10
“Glory, Honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good.”
To be continued…
Romans 8:28-32 is not a strict and automatic sequence of events, but a general overview of God’s plan of salvation. If it were, all those who are called would be justified. And yet, Matthew 22:14 states:
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Moreover, Paul in Romans conditions glorification on suffering with Christ and doing good.
Romans 8:17
“And if children, then heirs - heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with him, that we also may [future tense] also be glorified together with Him.”
Romans 2:10
“Glory, Honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good.”
To be continued…
A
Antonius_Lupus
Guest
Note 2 Corinthians 11:12-14:Thank you “mrs_abbott.” If it makes sense to you then it is not flesh and blood that revealed this glorious truth of justification by faith alone to you, but your Father in heaven, to the glory of Christ.
12: And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do.
13: For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
14: And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
St. Ignatius of Antioch puts it quite eloquently:
“Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains *. **Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” *(Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).
A
Antonius_Lupus
Guest
Brother Mikledes,
You’ve got to realize that Evangelicals read into the Scripture what they want them to mean.
When they come across a verse like John 20:23 they just explain it into the realms of the three Solas.
I know this, Because I used to do it when I was an anti-Catholic.
Domine Iesu Christe, Filli Dei, Miserereme peccatoris!
You’ve got to realize that Evangelicals read into the Scripture what they want them to mean.
When they come across a verse like John 20:23 they just explain it into the realms of the three Solas.
I know this, Because I used to do it when I was an anti-Catholic.
Domine Iesu Christe, Filli Dei, Miserereme peccatoris!
S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
Salvation is obtained thru God’s grace.
A
Antonius_Lupus
Guest
Also brother Apophasis, you have yet to elucidate this question:
If your Sola Fide interpretation of Romans is, in fact, correct; why then do the Early Christians disagree with you???
"Wherefore also the Lord promised to send the Comforter, who should join us to God. For as a compacted lump of dough cannot be formed of dry wheat without fluid matter, nor can a loaf possess unity, so, in like manner, neither could we, being many, be made one in Christ Jesus without the water from heaven. And as dry earth does not bring forth unless it receive moisture, in like manner we also, being originally a dry tree, could never have brought forth fruit unto life without the voluntary rain from above. For our bodies have received unity among themselves by means of that layer which leads to incorruption; but our souls, by means of the Spirit. Wherefore both are necessary, since both contribute towards the life of God.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:17 (A.D. 180).
“For God, never giving His sanction to the reprobation of good deeds, inasmuch as they are His own (of which, being the author, He must necessarily be the defender too), is in like manner the acceptor of them, and if the acceptor, likewise the rewarder. Let, then, the ingratitude of men see to it, if it attaches repentance even to good works; let their gratitude see to it too, if the desire of earning it be the incentive to well-doing: earthly and mortal are they each. For how small is your gain if you do good to a grateful man! or your loss if to an ungrateful!” Tertullian, On Repentance, 2 (A.D. 204).
“A corrupt tree will never yield good fruit, unless the better nature be grafted into it; nor will a good tree produce evil fruit, except by the same process of cultivation. Stones also will become children of Abraham, if educated in Abraham’s faith; and a generation of vipers will bring forth the fruits of penitence, if they reject the poison of their malignant nature. This will be the power of the grace of God, more potent indeed than nature, exercising its sway over the faculty that underlies itself within us–even the freedom of our will.” Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 21 (A.D. 208).
“We add, also, and say, ‘Thy will be done, as in heaven so in earth;’ not that God should do what He wills, but that we may be able to do what God wills. For who resists God, that l He may not do what He wills? But since we are hindered by the devil from obeying with our thought and deed God’s will in all things, we pray and ask that God’s will may be done in us; and that it may be done in us we have need of God’s good will, that is, of His help and protection, since no one is strong in his own strength, but he is safe by the grace and mercy of God.” Cyprian, On the Lord’s Prayer, 14 (A.D. 252).
“He from the essence of the Father, nor is the Son again Son according to essence, but in consequence of virtue, as we who are called sons by grace.” Athanasius, Defense of the Nicene Creed, 22 (A.D.351).
“For when you hear, Not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy, I counsel you to think the same. For since there are some who are so proud of their successes that they attribute all to themselves and nothing to Him that made them and gave them wisdom and supplied them with good; such are taught by this word that even to wish well needs help from God; or rather that even to choose what is right is divine and a gift of the mercy of God. For it is necessary both that we should be our own masters and also that our salvation should be of God. This is why He saith not of him that willeth; that is, not of him that willeth only, nor of him that runneth only, but also of God. That sheweth mercy. Next; since to will also is from God, he has attributed the whole to God with reason. However much you may run, however much you may wrestle, yet you need one to give the crown.” Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration 37:13 (A.D. 383).
“You see indeed, then, how the strength of the Lord is cooperative in human endeavors, so that no one can build without the Lord, no one can preserve without the Lord, no one can build without the Lord, no one can preserve without the Lord, no one can undertake anything without the Lord.” Ambrose, Commentary on Luke, 2:84 (A.D. 389).
If your Sola Fide interpretation of Romans is, in fact, correct; why then do the Early Christians disagree with you???
"Wherefore also the Lord promised to send the Comforter, who should join us to God. For as a compacted lump of dough cannot be formed of dry wheat without fluid matter, nor can a loaf possess unity, so, in like manner, neither could we, being many, be made one in Christ Jesus without the water from heaven. And as dry earth does not bring forth unless it receive moisture, in like manner we also, being originally a dry tree, could never have brought forth fruit unto life without the voluntary rain from above. For our bodies have received unity among themselves by means of that layer which leads to incorruption; but our souls, by means of the Spirit. Wherefore both are necessary, since both contribute towards the life of God.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:17 (A.D. 180).
“For God, never giving His sanction to the reprobation of good deeds, inasmuch as they are His own (of which, being the author, He must necessarily be the defender too), is in like manner the acceptor of them, and if the acceptor, likewise the rewarder. Let, then, the ingratitude of men see to it, if it attaches repentance even to good works; let their gratitude see to it too, if the desire of earning it be the incentive to well-doing: earthly and mortal are they each. For how small is your gain if you do good to a grateful man! or your loss if to an ungrateful!” Tertullian, On Repentance, 2 (A.D. 204).
“A corrupt tree will never yield good fruit, unless the better nature be grafted into it; nor will a good tree produce evil fruit, except by the same process of cultivation. Stones also will become children of Abraham, if educated in Abraham’s faith; and a generation of vipers will bring forth the fruits of penitence, if they reject the poison of their malignant nature. This will be the power of the grace of God, more potent indeed than nature, exercising its sway over the faculty that underlies itself within us–even the freedom of our will.” Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 21 (A.D. 208).
“We add, also, and say, ‘Thy will be done, as in heaven so in earth;’ not that God should do what He wills, but that we may be able to do what God wills. For who resists God, that l He may not do what He wills? But since we are hindered by the devil from obeying with our thought and deed God’s will in all things, we pray and ask that God’s will may be done in us; and that it may be done in us we have need of God’s good will, that is, of His help and protection, since no one is strong in his own strength, but he is safe by the grace and mercy of God.” Cyprian, On the Lord’s Prayer, 14 (A.D. 252).
“He from the essence of the Father, nor is the Son again Son according to essence, but in consequence of virtue, as we who are called sons by grace.” Athanasius, Defense of the Nicene Creed, 22 (A.D.351).
“For when you hear, Not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy, I counsel you to think the same. For since there are some who are so proud of their successes that they attribute all to themselves and nothing to Him that made them and gave them wisdom and supplied them with good; such are taught by this word that even to wish well needs help from God; or rather that even to choose what is right is divine and a gift of the mercy of God. For it is necessary both that we should be our own masters and also that our salvation should be of God. This is why He saith not of him that willeth; that is, not of him that willeth only, nor of him that runneth only, but also of God. That sheweth mercy. Next; since to will also is from God, he has attributed the whole to God with reason. However much you may run, however much you may wrestle, yet you need one to give the crown.” Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration 37:13 (A.D. 383).
“You see indeed, then, how the strength of the Lord is cooperative in human endeavors, so that no one can build without the Lord, no one can preserve without the Lord, no one can build without the Lord, no one can preserve without the Lord, no one can undertake anything without the Lord.” Ambrose, Commentary on Luke, 2:84 (A.D. 389).
M
mrs_abbott
Guest
Eph. 2:8-9 – Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification, and that faith excludes “works of law.” But Paul does not teach that faith excludes other kinds of works. It indicates that faith comes first. This, of course, must be true, because those who do works outside of faith are in a system of debt, not of grace.
A
Antonius_Lupus
Guest
Brother Apophasis two points:
- No matter how you interpret this passage in John, it still does say what it says.
- Catholics base their soteriolgy on the **entire **Bible, unlike Evangelicals, who when shown that works are neccessary for the perfection of salvation, they run to St. Paul and his Epistle in Romans; as if St. Paul was some sort of Proto-Luther.
M
mrs_abbott
Guest
M
mikeledes
Guest
All this talk about “if” and “repaying according to works,” does not fit a Soteriology that claims that works play absolutely no role in our glorification. First of all, the works that the justified do are done “in Christ” and cannot be done apart from Christ in a manner pleasing to God (“For without me you can do nothing.”). So even the good works we do in Christ are ultimately derived from the work of Christ on the Cross, so we cannot glory in them.
Secondly, if works have nothing to do with inheriting Eternal Life, then why even bother to bring then up (Romans 2:6-10, 1 Timothy 6:18-19, Matthew 25;33-46 [Please read these verses carefully], John 15:2,6). Why does the Bible say we are judged according to our works and not simply according to our faith.
Thirdly, if salvation does not have past, present, and future dimensions, why do we find verses like:
1 Timothy 4:16
“Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this in you will save yourself and those who hear.”
I thought Timothy was already saved? Why does it say he “will save(Future tense) yourself?” Moreover, why is Paul connecting salvation with actually doing something, if nothing we do besides faith affects our salvation? Finally, why urge Timothy to continue?
Won’t that happen automatically with justification, since it is an eternal state?
Why does the Bible say that those “who endure to the end will be saved?” Why be saved at the end if they are already and forever saved? Why urge to endure if our efforts after being justified have nothing to do with our salvation?
Why does Romans 13:11 say:
“… for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.”
if we already have salvation in its fullest sense?
Why does Jesus several times states that in order to inherit eternal life you need to keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28)? I thought that was done by faith alone?
Why does he tell us to keep the commandments in order to remain in Him (John 15:10, 1 John 3:24)? I thought once we were justified by faith alone, we would always remain in Christ and nothing we do - even keeping the commandments - can affect that?
Why does John 15 contradict everything you are saying but fits perfectly with the above verses?
When you read Romans 4 in context of the entire New Testament, both the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles, you see a very different Gospel from the one you are preaching.
God Bless,
Michael
A
Antonius_Lupus
Guest
A
Antonius_Lupus
Guest
Brother Michael,
Please understand, when I was an Evangelical this was drilled into my brain on a quotidian basis:
Solus Christus (Christ alone)
Soli Deo Gloria (God alone be the glory)
Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone)
Sola Fide (Faith alone)
Sola Gratia (Grace alone)
Evangelical Christians see themselves (whether they’ll admit it or not) as the keepers of “Bible Christianity”.
As if somehow trusting in the Bible alone automatically means you follow the Bible.
Peace be with you Brother Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
I just want to add and clarify:
God Bless,
Michael
God bless,
Michael
- Without the Cross of Christ, we could never be justified.
- Without the Cross of Christ we would never be able to do the good works pleasing to God for they would be only filthy rags.
- Without the Cross of Christ, we would not be able to meet the righteous requirements of God’s commandments.
- Without the Cross of Christ we would never be
glorified, no matter what righteous acts we did.
God Bless,
Michael
God bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
Justification qualifies us to inherit eternal life:
Colossians 1:12
“Giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints.”
We will receive “Eternal life” in its fullest sense, actually posses it, in the end:
Luke 18:30
"Who shalt not receive mant times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life (Compare with Mark 10:29-30).
Romans 2:6-7
“Who will render to each one according TO HIS DEEDS. ETERNAL LIFE to those WHO BY PATIENT CONTINUANCE in DOING GOOD.”
Matthew 19:17
“But if you want to ENTER INTO LIFE, keep the commandments.”
Matthew 7:21 (Compare with verse immediately above.)
“Not everyone who says to Me “Lord, Lord” shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but HE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER.”
To be continued…
- Status