HELP! Does Romans 4 preach sola fide?

[mikeledes]

Moreover, you have not addressed james 2:24. It clearly sates that man is JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, and not by faith alone. It does not say Abraham was already justified by faith and the works were evidence of that. The key words are “by works.” If works have no role in our justification, then why does James talk about being justified by works. Why does he even bother to bring up works in the first place. I thought it was by FAITH ALONE. Also, he says that Rahab was justified by her works. Explain that one, please. Can you point in the Bible where it says her faith was credited unto her as rigteousness? The point of bringing up the example of the sacrifice of Isaac was to demonstrate the point he makes in James 2:24, that we are not justified by faith alone. That’s why the verse opens with “You see then.”

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Also, if the justification James talks about in reference to the sacrifice of Isaac is not an actual justification, then why use the word JUSTIFIED. Or use a phrase like justified by works. Or say he has “justified… when” he offered his son on the altar? If he was justified when he believed several chapters earlier, then why talk about being justified when he offered up his son? The “when” indicates the time he was justified, as in, THAT MOMENT, when he offered Isaac on the altar.

God Bless

 

[mikeledes]

Apophasis,

Because Jesus was speaking to a Jew, prior to the cross, who was under the Law as a rule of life. Not only was this rich man, as a Jew, bound to the Law, but he relied upon that Law for righteousness. But, ulitmately, this rich man trusted in his riches and was not willing to part with them, nor follow Christ. Jesus exposed his true heart.

Salvation through faith in Christ alone could not yet be preached because He (Christ) had not yet gone to the cross as a substitutionary sacrifice for the world’s sins. Not even the rich man’s

.

This is where you have erred, for Christ constantly preached the necessity and primacy of faith in Him in order to receive eternal life.

Jesus answered and said to them,"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent… But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe… And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believe in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up the last day. (John 6:29, 36, 40).

John 9:35

Jesus heard that they had cast him (the blind man) and when He found him, He said to him, "Do you believe in the Son of God? He answered and said, "who is he, Lord, that I may believe in Him…

John 11:25-27

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this? She said to Him, "Yes Lord, I believe that you are the Christ the Son of God, who is come into the world.

These are just a couple of examples in which Jesus preached the necessity of having faith in Him in order to be saved. So you are wrong to say that salvation through faith could not be preached before Jesus was crucified.

Moreover, in Galatians 3:21:

For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.

Tha law could not give eternal life or righteousness. If it could, then we would have no need for a Savior because we could have done it ourselves. So when the rich young man asked Jesus what should he do to gain eternal life, Jesus, according to your interpretation, would have lied by saying that eternal life could be gotten by following the law. Since Jesus emphasized throughout his ministry the necessity and importance of faith in gaining eternal life, why didn’t he answer the rich young man, “Just have faith?”

To be continued…

 

[mikeledes]

In Romans chapter two Paul is building his case for what he concludes in chapters three and four: NONE are righteous, no not one. But all are justified as a gift through faith in Christ alone - apart from works. What he says in 2:6 is true, but applies only to those who are first justified through faith in Christ alone. You must understand chapter two IN THE CONTEXT of chapters three and four. Please read them!!! They’re written to your church.

You’re absolutely right! Romans 2:26 applies to those who have been justified by faith in Christ alone. A person who has not been communicated God’s righteousness through justification cannot do the works pleasing to God. Our good works are ultimately the fruits of God’s grace.

For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure" (Pillipians 2:13)

We are simply responding to - and cooperating with - God’s initiative, so all glory belongs to Him.

However, if, after we are justified, we fail to perservere in faith and in doing good, we will not inherit eternal life. We must continously have faith working through love, and faith working through love means keeping the commandments and doing works of love (charity).

Galatians 5:6

Fo in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

1 Corinthians 7:19

Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters"

See also Romans 13:9. Through faith we are joined to the Vine, that is Christ. Through faith working through love, we remain part of the Vine. If our faith is unproductive, we will be cut off and burnt.

Catholics are not saying we enter into a saving relationship with God through our works or even our faith and works. This is the work of God’s freely given mercy and grace won by Christ on the Cross. What we are saying is that in order to keep - not earn - this relationship and grow in it, we must have faith continously working though love until the end.

Hebrews 3:14

"For we have become partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end

Matthew 10:22

… But he who endures top the end will be saved."

This is what the Bible means when it says that we have “to WORK out our salvation with fear and trembling” (Phillipians 2:12). The only kind of faith that saves, is a persistent faith that continuously works through love.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Romans 3, 4 and 5 all talk about a specific situation, how do we enter into a saving relationship with God. How do we become righteous before God. Here, Paul makes it clear that it is not through works. However, once one has been made righteous by grace alone through faith in Christ, we have the obligation to persevere in righteousness. Persevering in righteousness means persevering in faith, keeping the commandments, and doing good. We can only persevere in rigteousness and do truly righteous acts if we have God’s grace and have been justified. But if our faith is unproductive, we will ultimately not inherit eternal life.

God Bless,
Mike

 

[mikeledes]

While Romans 4 discusses how we are made righteous before God, James 2 discusses what must happen in the aftermath of our justification by faith. In other words, how do we continue to be righteous. He let’s us know that just because we have been justified through faith, it does not mean that we are no longer obligated to do works. In order to continue - not become - righteous, we must LIVE in righteousness by having faith working through love. Justification through faith is just the FIRST INSTALLMENT of salvation. The faith that saves in the end is productive faith.

God Bless,
Mike

 

[Philthy]

Hi apo-

I agree that faith is not simply a “mental assent or agreement.”

Very good - it is nice to agree. Lets see if you can define what faith IS rather than what it is not so that one who possesses it can recognize it as such.
apo:

But the faith by which God justifies the UNGODLY is a personal faith that causes the believer to trust/rest in the finished, redemptive WORK of Christ on his behalf. In other words, in the work of Someone else - not himself.

Hmmmm. To trust/“rest” in the finished work of Christ on his behalf? I don’t disagree with that, but its so vague that you and I could both claim to believe it. Lets deal with much more mundane reality: I have an opportunity to cheat or not to cheat on my taxes. How do I as a believer who “trusts and rests in the finished work of Christ” respond to this situation? Is my response a function of the fact that I am “resting and trusting” in Christ? Does it matter (ie eternal consequence) how I respond?

apophasis:

And it is this abiding, trusting faith in Christ that God recognizes and reckons the believer justified.

Yup - I agree totally. Can you tell me how the “abiding and trusting” works on a daily basis when we are confronted with the option to sin? Or does that have nothing to do with it?

apophasis:

Do you wonder, as does “Philthy,” if God needs proof of faith via demonstration?

I would appreciate it if you did not claim to know my mind. You are misquoting me as wondering about something I didnt actually say I wondered about. I made an argument based on some verses from Genesis 22 which were entirely valid to prove a point. You never addressed them adequately because you cannot. The point of my bringing that issue up was to demonstrate what Scripture said of Abraham and God’s knowledge of his faith. Scripture says that God saw Abrahams work in 22 and as a result of it judged his faith and rewarded him. It is not a point of debate - it is a fact that Scripture says this - the implications of the truth Scripture is saying through it are conjecture.

 

[Philthy]

I

"Can that faith save him?" It was in faith that Abraham was willing to offer up Isaac. Faith in the word of God (see Heb. 11:17-19; cf. Gen. 15:5-6). James is not saying that at the point of offering up Isaac God justified him. But at that point the SCRIPTURE (vs. 23, cf. Gen. 15:6) was “fulfilled” (overtly demonstated).

Sorry, but this is definitely gymnastics Apo. There is not a single good reason to believe that James meant anything other than what he said, and what he said was that Abraham WAS JUSTIFIED when he offered Isaac up. This is not debatable.
The problem you are having is that you dont see Abraham’s ACT of “offering up” Isaac as being equivalent to his “faith”. But that is exactly what it is. His offering is an ACT OF FAITH which is inseparable from ACTUAL faith. Here is God rewarding Abrahams WORK, which in this case is, in act, FAITH:

14 And he called the name of that place, The Lord seeth.

I through this is in because notice that the central theme here is that God “SAW” Abrahams faith…Gen 22 DR

Whereupon even to this day it is said: In the mountain the Lord will see. 15 And the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, saying: 16 By my own self have I sworn, saith the Lord: because thou hast done this thing, and hast not spared thy only begotten son for my sake: 17 I will bless thee,

How can it be Apo? Abraham was justified by “faith” and that “faith” was the offering of Isaac upon the altar which was the good work that God had prepared in advance and which Abraham walked in. It ALL fits together. Justification is by faith, and obedience to God is a part of faith and it is by Grace. Had he not chosen to walk in it, God would have been displeased and would not have “blessed him” and he would not have been justified. There is no need for any great contextual analysis to explain why the statement “Abraham was justified when he offered Isaac” means, according to you, the exact opposite.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Two fundamental problems with your analogy, Michael:

1. Scripture nowhere talks about “intitial” justification. That’s a word Catholicism ADDS to the doctrine. There is no such concept in Scripture.

Yes there is such a concept:
9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. 11 Besides this you know what hour it is, how it is full time now for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed; 12 the night is far gone, the day is at hand. Let us then cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light; 13 let us conduct ourselves becomingly as in the day, not in reveling and drunkenness, not in debauchery and licentiousness, not in quarreling and jealousy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires. Rom 13
This is clear Paul sees salvation as a process, the point of turning one’s life around and striving to do good is the most important part. Paul often talks like this maturing phase of salvation, other comparable passages are Eph4:22-5:5.

** 2.** James does not say Abraham’s justification grew or increased by works, but it was his FAITH that was “perfected” (i.e., matured) by his works (Ja. 2:22). The same faith by which God justified him when he (Abraham) believed in the Lord back in Gen. 15:6.

Think about what your saying, if faith can be “perfected” that means there ARE initial stages. Given that Im sure you would agree an immature/imperfected faith is not what God desires. Infact this faith was building up for the ultimate test, sacrifice Abaham’s son. If Abraham wouldnt have gone to sacrifice Issac then his faith would have been dead and unsalvific as the context of James explains. And even this faith didnt start in Gen 15:6 but much earlier in Gen 12 as Heb11:8ff shows.

 

[mikeledes]

When we are justified, we become a member of his body, His Church, and thus we are spiritually united with Christ. So the only way we can become part of the Vine (i.e. Christ) is by the freely given grace and mercy of God. That said:

John 15:1-6

I am the Vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch IN ME that DOES NOT BEAR fruit HE TAKES AWAY; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. ABIDE IN ME, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, bears much fruit; for without me you can do nothing. If ANYONE DOES NOT ABIDE IN ME, HE IS CAST OUT AS A BRANCH AND IS WITHERED; and they gather them in and throw them into the fire and they are burned.

Once we have become a branch of the Vine through justification by grace alone through faith in Christ alone, we must continue to ABIDE in the Vine. As long as we abide in the Vine, we receive from God through the work of Christ on the Cross the grace and spiritual gifts necessary in order to live in righteousness (i.e. “bear fruit.”) How do we abide in the Vine? Is it simply through Faith in Christ? Christ explains how we abide in Him a couple of verses later.

John 15:10
If you KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, you will abide in My love…

Also, 1 John 3:24
Now he WHO KEEPS HIS COMMANDMENTS abides in Him, and He in him.

What is Jesus’s chief commandment?

John 15:12

This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

How is this commandment fulfiilled? Not just following the Ten Commandments (Romans 13:9), but also doing works of charity:

1 John 3:17-18.

But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of god abide in him? My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, BUT IN DEED and in truth.

That is why Paul in Galatians said that the only thing that avails is faith working through love, not just faith alone. That is why Jesus told the rich man that in order to receive eternal life, he must keep the commandments. Faith represents just one essential dimension of salvation and the first. The second dimension is love. And love is not just an emotion, it is a VERB, a WORD OF ACTION. So we enter into a relationship with God (i.e. justification) by grace through faith, but we must continue to abide in this realtionship by grace through persistant faith working through continuous love until the end. Otherwise, we will be cut off from the vine, not inherit eternal life, and thus "receive the grace in god in vain (2 Corinthians 6:1), for the purpose of grace is salvation. Read also 2 Peter 1:5-11, especially verses 9 - 11.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[apophasis]

I will say more later since I do not have the time now. But Apophasis, can you please point where in Scripture does it says justification by faith alone. The alone is a modifier added by your church that is not found in scripture. I have more to say, but can’t say it now.

God Bless,
Michael

It’s implicit. Just as the Trinity is. The theme throughout the following verses is a divine justification as well as a divine salvation based solely on faith, totally apart from personal works:Rom. 3:28 "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Rom. 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Rom. 5:1 “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,”

Rom. 5:9 “Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath {of God} through Him.”

1 Cor. 6:11 “Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”

Gal. 2:16 "…nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Gal. 3:11 "Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.”

Gal. 3:24 “Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.”

Acts 11:14 “…and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household” (these are “words” concerning Christ that when believed by the hearer, results in salvation).

Acts 16:30-31 "…and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved? They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works…”

2 Tim 1:9 “…who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,”

Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit…"And so many more. The problem is not with a lack of Scripture, Michael, but your refusal to believe God’s Word.

 

[mercygate]

. . . The problem is not with a lack of Scripture, Michael, but your refusal to believe God’s Word.

From reading this thread, I am staggered that you still accuse mikeledes of “refusing to believe God’s Word.” He has cited those portions of God’s word which complement the teaching preached for 2000 years by the Catholic Church – that we are saved by faith. Mike has amplified that teaching directly from the Word of God: from the mouth of Jesus Christ himself and from Paul.

To comprehend fully the Word of God concerning “faith” one must understand that faith is not merely as an affirmation of belief but is completed for salvation by “working through love.”

Sola fide, as articulated here, places an incomprehensible limitation of the complete Word of God. How can one persist in affirming a teaching that is so patently contradicted by Scripture? Is it to deny the non-teaching of the Church that we work our way to heaven without the Grace of Jesus? Is it to emphasize the all-sufficient Sacrifice of the cross – as if grace-enabled human cooperation were somehow a detraction from that Sacrifice? Is it that one is so caught up in denial of the Catholic Church that one must create a doctrine that denies Scripture in order to justify rejection of the Catholic faith?

As a convert, I can say that there was a time when I was guilty of “all of the above.”

 

[apophasis]

mikeledes:

Moreover, you have not addressed james 2:24. It clearly sates that man is JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, and not by faith alone.

I have already addressed Ja. 2:24, IN CONTEXT, at least twice now. Just because you refuse to accept what I said doesn’t mean I haven’t addressed it.

It does not say Abraham was already justified by faith and the works were evidence of that.

Sure it does. That’s the main point James is making. The faith by which God justifies a man is not simply a “said” faith: “What use is it, my brethren, if a man SAYS he has faith, but he has no works? Can THAT faith save him?”

The key words are “by works.” If works have no role in our justification, then why does James talk about being justified by works.

Because James is talking in the CONTEXT of a man who SAYS he has faith (in Messiah as Savior) but his actions (or lack of) cannot back up his words. Throughout the CONTEXT James is always coming from the direction of faith. What kind of “faith” is the issue. Works have a role in one’s justification, but the works are not the cause or even the seal of it. James does not deviate from the root cause:“And Abraham BELIEVED GOD, and it (his faith in Him) was reckoned to him (by God) as righteousness (i.e., justification),” and he was called the friend of God" (2:23).James begins with this basic premise, you try to avoid it, as you do Paul. And for this reason you erroneously interpret James as being an advocate of your “justification by works” doctrine. He is not.

Also, he says that Rahab was justified by her works.

Rahab demonstrated her true faith in the God of the sons of Jacob by hiding the spies. Only the true God could have led an enslaved people out of Egypt and kept millions alive and well in a desert wilderness for forty years.

The point James is making is that her FAITH was demonstrated, just like Abraham’s. A faith that was quite great, in fact, since she hid the spies of the people who were about to destroy her own people and the city in which she lived.

Could you do that? Could you, say, deny the comfort of the complexity of Catholicism and instead embrace the simplicity of Christ alone2 Cor. 11:3 "But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity {of devotion} to Christ.When you stop to think about her situation, Rahab’s faith in the God of Israel took her to the point of denying her culture, her city, her people and religion. And she had no way of knowing that the spies would even keep their promise. But still, it was her faith, not her works by which she was justified.

This is where you have erred, for Christ constantly preached the necessity and primacy of faith in Him in order to receive eternal life.

Now you’re actually arguing for my case. Yes, Jesus constantly, throughout the gospel accounts (especially John’s), points to Himself as the object of true faith. And this being in preparation to believe in His subsequent work on the cross - which was the message His Apostles preached to the people AFTER His crucifixion and bodily resurrection.

Remember, this all took place within a three year period. Those same people needed to trust not only in His Person, but also in His work on their behalf - His substitutionary, sacrifice for the forgiveness of ALL their sins. A Divine truth that could not be believed on until AFTER His death and resurrection.

Jesus is, Himself, still the object of true salvation faith. But this includes “the word of the cross” which was taken to the world by His Apostles - especially Paul. It is this faith, this trust in the Person and work of the Son alone, by which He (God) justifies the one “who does not work,” as Paul says, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly - his FAITH is reckoned to the him as righteousness" (Rom. 4:4-5). So clear, so concise, so simple, you stumble over it. Or to be more accurate, “over Him.”

 

[apophasis]

Tha law could not give eternal life or righteousness. If it could, then we would have no need for a Savior because we could have done it ourselves.

Absolutely (Gal. 2:21).

So when the rich young man asked Jesus what should he do to gain eternal life, Jesus, according to your interpretation, would have lied by saying that eternal life could be gotten by following the law. Since Jesus emphasized throughout his ministry the necessity and importance of faith in gaining eternal life, why didn’t he answer the rich young man, “Just have faith?”

Look at the text (Lk. 18:18-23). As you said yourself, Jesus often presented Himself as the object of faith and the source of eternal life. But still this rich ruler of Israel questioned Him on how *he himself *might obtain (not inherit) eternal life. And he arrogantly told Jesus that he had kept the Law even from his youth (which is impossible). But Jesus cut to the core of his “faith” - his riches. So when Jesus told him to sell all his possessions and follow Him, he became very sad and refused.

Now you and I both know that it is not required for us to sell all that we have in order to “obtain” eternal life (yet Catholics think they obey everything Jesus said). But Jesus was dealing directly with what kept this particular rich ruler from believing in Him. That Jesus Himself would become the object of his faith.

Hopefully, he listened to the “message of the cross” delivered by the Apostles after His death and resurrection and then believed. And rather than try to obtain eternal life by what he could do, he instead “inherited” eternal life through faith alone in the Person and work of His Messiah.

mikeledes:

However, if, after we are justified, we fail to perservere in faith and in doing good, we will not inherit eternal life. We must continously have faith working through love, and faith working through love means keeping the commandments and doing works of love (charity).

A totally contradictory statement! You use the phrase “inherit” eternal life. Which, BTW, is Scriptural:1 Pet 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. You follow in the footsteps of those who asked the Lord what they must “do” to “inherit” eternal life. But an “inheritance” is never based on what we do, but is given freely through the death of another. Those who believe in Christ are given freely an “inheritance” of eternal life though His death for them.Rom. 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

This is what the Bible means when it says that we have “to WORK out our salvation with fear and trembling” (Phillipians 2:12). The only kind of faith that saves, is a persistent faith that continuously works through love.

That’s not what Phil. 2:12 is saying at all. Paul is speaking in the context of bringing their salvation to outward maturity with the same kind of humility he attributes to Christ in 2:1-11. They were to work outwardly that which God had already done inwardly - the salvation of their souls through faith in Christ alone. Which is what James is actually saying, as well.

 

[heisenburg]

Peace to You Apop

For starters, while I do not agree with your understanding of scripture, your desire to spread the word is admiriable and that zeal should be used by all christians.

That being said,

going back to the original Post. I asked this before, but i believe it got lost in the ensuing debate.

1. The original poster is refering to romans 4, (more specificly the verse that says a man that does no works, but belives in the one who saves the ungodly, is righteous) It is also my understanding this is often the primary point that people that adhere to Faith Alone start at. My Question is simple. Paul in the previous 3 chapters, and for several chapters after, is refrencing the Old law and the Works of the old law (such as not eating types of meet. The various forms of sacrifice, etc). Considering that, would the statement paul is saying could more clearly be reworded like this?
   For if a man does not follow the works of the old law, but instead follows christ, he is righteous.

This is supported by scripture in that Paul later makes statements such as “If a man submits to the [old] law, he is obliged by the [old] law, and christ sacrifice amounts to nothing”

1. It seems to me impossible that Paul would spend so many chapters both before and after this verse talking about works of the Old Law, and how the Old Law applied, but then only in these two or three versus, Paul is now refering to all works. Only to revert back in the following verses to talk about the old law again.
2. Putting aside any catholic/non catholic issue… Ask your self… Is it just possible, that Paul infact is talkin about works of the Old Law and not about all works? (remember there is a differance betwen Levitical Works, and Moral Works)

ignoring for the moment all the other verses that are going back and forth… looking at this one verse… Can Paul truely be talking about all works and thus Faith Alone if all surrounding versus are simply talking about works of the old law?

Peace to you in Christ

 

[apophasis]

mercygate:

From reading this thread, I am staggered that you still accuse mikeledes of “refusing to believe God’s Word.”

A refusal to believe the “word of the cross” (1 Cor. 1:18). A total trust in what God accomplished for us, in full, there.

To comprehend fully the Word of God concerning “faith” one must understand that faith is not merely as an affirmation of belief but is completed for salvation by “working through love.”

Actually, to comprehend fully the Word of God one must first and foremost believe what God accomplished through the cross. The object of salvation faith, a true Biblical faith, is never one’s self, or his works, or his own expression to love. But instead:John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

1 John 3:1-2 "See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and {such} we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.We, ourselves, are not to be the object of salvation faith. Such “faith” does not result in Divine justification. Nor is it ever about our love, but always first about God’s toward us1 John 4:9-10 "By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son {to be} the propitiation for our sins.Gal. 5:6 is not to be construed as meaning our own love seals, or completes, or finishes, that which Christ alone began. The faith that Paul describes is a total trust in the finished redemptive work of Christ. It’s what he calls the “word of the cross,” where the work of man’s redemption began and was finished. And we are asked only to believe it, not to add to it.

When we are justified, we become a member of his body, His Church, and thus we are spiritually united with Christ. So the only way we can become part of the Vine (i.e. Christ) is by the freely given grace and mercy of God.

Yes, the justified are members of the “body of Christ.” They are no longer “in Adam” whom Paul describes as “a living soul” in whom ALL, in him, die. But are now “a new creation,” “in Christ,” the “Last Adam.” An “Adam” who is not merely a “living soul,” like the “first man Adam,” but is Himself a “life-giving spirit” (1 Cor. 15:45).

And those who are justified through faith in Him, apart from works (Rom. 4:4-5), have been crucified with Christ, buried with Christ and raised to new life “in Him” through His resurrection (Rom. 6). These justified believers, Paul teaches, God has already positioned with Christ in heaven and seated them there with Him:Eph 2:4-7] “But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.”

Col 3:1-4 “Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory” (see also 1 Jn. 3:2).Point being, Paul does not at all describe salvation through faith in Christ alone as a process in time, but a completed act of God for ALL ETERNITY. It’s how God sees the believer in Christ.

Paul speaks of full assurance of salvation - a salvation that begins here on earth through faith and, being now in Christ resurrected, reaches into all eternity. A salvation as everlasting as Christ Himself, in whom the believer now is.

If you’re going to “stagger over anything,” you should “stagger” over men teaching the idea that divine justification is based on self works of any kind.

 

[apophasis]

mikeledes:

John 15:1-6

I am the Vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch IN ME that DOES NOT BEAR fruit HE TAKES AWAY; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. ABIDE IN ME, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, bears much fruit; for without me you can do nothing. If ANYONE DOES NOT ABIDE IN ME, HE IS CAST OUT AS A BRANCH AND IS WITHERED; and they gather them in and throw them into the fire and they are burned.

Notice Jesus says “You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.”

This is positional. You cannot change it. In the SYMBOLIC illustration of the Vine and branches he changes to the volitional and that which is necessary to “bear fruit.” None of this has to do with actually obtaining salvation, but the bearing of fruit for the saved through a vital, constant union with Christ, the source of life for fruit bearing - which is volitional (vs. 4). Which is what is meant to “walk by faith,” thus bearing fruit - as Abraham did.

And since the subject is the bearing of fruit and not eternal life, the burning is a judgment upon fruitlessness, not an abandonment to eternal destruction. Compare this to Paul’s teaching in 1 Cor. 3:15 (which is NOT referring to an imaginary place called Purgatory, but a future judgment, or better, evaluation, appraisal, of a believer’s works). If he bore no fruitful works of any value, he himself will be saved. Why? Because he was redeemed by the blood of Christ, not his own works: Rom. 4:5-6 "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:You would say, but if he has true faith he WILL bear fruitful works. And I would say, yes, that is the norm. But remember, fruitfulness (not salvation) is contingent upon abiding in Christ. A volitional walk in union with Him, faith in who He is and what He has done. But if your “faith-walk” (union) has shifted from Christ to something or someone else, then what kind of fruit can that possibly bear? Jesus said “I am the true Vine,” and those who do not abide in Him, cannot bear fruit. To bear fruit your faith must abide in Him, and Him alone. There is no other Vine. There is no other source of life for the branch to bear fruit.

Once we have become a branch of the Vine through justification by grace alone through faith in Christ alone, we must continue to ABIDE in the Vine.

Yes, in order to bear fruit. But we are to BELIEVE in Him for our salvation, our justification.

 

[apophasis]

Catholic Dude:

“For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed;”

I already commented on this verse. Paul is talking about all the physical benefits that are yet for the believer to experience, such as the bodily resurrection/translation unto glory (see Phil. 3:20-21).

This is clear Paul sees salvation as a process, the point of turning one’s life around and striving to do good is the most important part. Paul often talks like this maturing phase of salvation, other comparable passages are Eph4:22-5:5.

This is the experiential sanctification of the saved. And, yes, it is a daily process while yet in these unredeemed bodies. But at the same time the believer has been positionally sanctified, being now “in Christ”:Acts 26:18 "…to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’

1 Cor. 1:2 "To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their {Lord} and ours:

1 Cor. 6:11 "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Heb. 2:11 “For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one {Father;} for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,”

Heb. 10:10 “By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

Heb. 10:14 “For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.”

Think about what your saying, if faith can be “perfected” that means there ARE initial stages.

Faith can mature (which is what “perfected” means), especially as one “grows in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Pet. 3:18), but justification is a one time sovereign act of God toward the one who “does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, HIS FAITH is reckoned as righteousness” (Rom. 4:5).

And even this faith didnt start in Gen 15:6 but much earlier in Gen 12 as Heb11:8ff shows.

Abraham, prior to Gen. 15:6, by faith obeyed the Lord, such as leaving Ur. But not until Gen. 15:6 did Abraham actually “believe IN the Lord.” It is this kind of faith, a personal faith IN Him, that God reckoned it (his faith) to Abraham as righteousness.

You can obey someone but never believe IN him. Abraham obeyed God by leaving his country, but he came to a point in his life when he actually believed in Him (Gen. 15:6). When it comes to justification, this is the line of demarcation.

 

[Philthy]

Hi Apo -

Did you miss my post 168? On second thought you probably consider me too far gone to bother responding to…

Anyhow I have a practical question:

• How does a faith “resting” in the redemptive work of Christ manifest itself in the cooperation of our free will with God’s will in the day to day moral challenges we face as humans living in a fallen world?
• And whatever your answer is, could you please reconcile it with Paul’s statement that if you “have all faith so as to move mountains but have not love” you are nothing?
  Thank you

Phil

 

[apophasis]

Philthy:

Sorry, but this is definitely gymnastics Apo. There is not a single good reason to believe that James meant anything other than what he said, and what he said was that Abraham WAS JUSTIFIED when he offered Isaac up. This is not debatable.

It is when you read him in the true context in which it is stated.

The problem you are having is that you dont see Abraham’s ACT of “offering up” Isaac as being equivalent to his “faith”. But that is exactly what it is. His offering is an ACT OF FAITH which is inseparable from ACTUAL faith.

But I do see his offering up Isaac as an act of faith. As I said before, it is the SAME faith by which he believed “in the Lord,” and by which God at THAT TIME justified him (Gen. 15:6). His trust was STILL “in the Lord” because he believed the Lord would raise Isaac from the dead in order to fulfill His promise that through Isaac his descendants would be named.

Here is God rewarding Abrahams WORK, which in this case is, in act, FAITH:

Nowhere in Gen. 22 is it recorded that AT THAT TIME God “justified” Abraham. But instead it says:Gen 22:15-19 "Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. “In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” So Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham lived at Beersheba."Nope. The Lord did not reward Abraham by justifying him there, but he did give him back his son and then reiterated the covenant promises he gave to him earlier. But there was no justifying of Abraham by God at that time. You can’t get around it, Phil. There is no record of it in the text. There was no need, He had already justified him when he first, personally believed “in the Lord” back in Gen. 15:6. And James quotes that same, exact verse.

Paul brings this out very clearly, as well, in Romans chapter four, when he too quotes that same, exact verse. The chapter the O.P. questions regarding sola fide. Does Paul teach “sola fide” in Romans chapter four? Unequivocally, YES! And James is not in variance with Paul on this magnificent doctrine, nor is the Holy Spirit fickle in His inspired, written Word.Rom 4:1-6 "What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:I must conclude that the man who thinks that God will justifify him, as a final reward, based on any of his own works is on dangerous ground, indeed. For Paul is very explicit when he says that one is “justified” (as a reward? NO!) “as a gift” (how?) "by His grace through (good works? NO!) “the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.” All according to the “word of the cross,” which men are asked, by God, to BELIEVE.