HELP! Does Romans 4 preach sola fide?

[mikeledes]

The problem is not with a lack of Scripture, Michael, but your refusal to believe God’s Word.

The problem is not with a lack of Scripture, the problem is your Pharisaic unwillingness to see the WHOLE Gospel os Salvation. I have not based my posts on a narrow interpretation of a passage and then engage in Clintonesque word redefinitions in order to FORCE other passages to fit that interpretation. More later…

 

[mikeledes]

Apohasis,

Now you’re actually arguing for my case. Yes, Jesus constantly, throughout the gospel accounts (especially John’s), points to Himself as the object of true faith. And this being in preparation to believe in His subsequent work on the cross - which was the message His Apostles preached to the people AFTER His crucifixion and bodily resurrection.

I am not arguing for your case, for this has been the Gospel of Christ as preached and taught by the Catholic Church for two millenia. In the verses that I quoted from John, Christ is asking for the Blind man and Martha (it might be Mary, iIdon’t have my Bible open to this verse at this time) if they believe, as in NOW, not in the near future. He could have asked or told the rich young man “If you want eternal life, you must believe in me and not rely on the law or on your works.” He did it with others, including Jews that REFUSED to believe in Him, see verse I quote from John 6.

Faith has primacy in salvation because it through faith that we are united to Christ and become a member of His body. Faith is sufficient to make us righteous before God. I don’t use the phrase “faith alone” because that is loaded with a lot meaning among Protestants that, for us, contradicts Christ’s Gospel of Salvation. Once we have been made rigteous by grace through faith in Christ alone, we are required to live in righteousness in order to remain righteous, not become righteous. This is where you and the Catholic Church part ways. We remain in righteousness through faith working through love. I have more to say later, but I don’t really have the time now. I just want to emphasize that Catholics do not believe we are made righteous before God through our works or through our faith and works. You, however, do not seem to get this point and throw the same verses at us that discuss how we first become righteous before God, not remain righteous. Righteous acts done apart from grace are worthless before God. As Isaiah states, they are as dirty rags. We are made righteous in order to live righteously, we don’t live righteously in order to be made righteous. This is constant Catholic teaching.

God Bless
Michael

God bless,

 

[Philthy]

Hi Apo -

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

It is when you read him in the true context in which it is stated.

I hear you, but your interpretation of the context is not irrefutable.
And you have to admit that it is very silly for God to use a phrase such as " a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" when He means to say that a man is not justified by works but is justified by faith alone. It’s just seems silly to me.
apo:

But I do see his offering up Isaac as an act of faith. As I said before, it is the SAME faith by which he believed “in the Lord,” and by which God at THAT TIME justified him (Gen. 15:6). His trust was STILL “in the Lord” because he believed the Lord would raise Isaac from the dead in order to fulfill His promise that through Isaac his descendants would be named.

Let the record show that we both agree that offering Issac was an act of faith!
apo:

Nowhere in Gen. 22 is it recorded that AT THAT TIME God “justified” Abraham… there was no justifying of Abraham by God at that time. You can’t get around it, Phil. There is no record of it in the text.

Ahhh, but it does not need to say that in Genesis for it to be so, does it? It is the entire Word of God that we must form our hearts and minds from - all of it. THAT’s the whole point of discussing James - which is every bit as inspired by God as Genesis. And James, under the inspiration of the holy Spirit proclaims that Abraham was “justified by works when he offered Isaac on the altar.” The fact that such is not mentioned in Genesis does not detract from that reality. That is what cannot be ignored or gotten around.
apo:

I must conclude that the man who thinks that God will justifify him, as a final reward, based on any of his own works is on dangerous ground, indeed.

Again, let the record show that we are in agreement!
apo:

For Paul is very explicit when he says that one is “justified” (as a reward? NO!) “as a gift” (how?) "by His grace through (good works? NO!) “the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.” All according to the “word of the cross,” which men are asked, by God, to BELIEVE.

Im good with this also, which Im sure puzzles you greatly. I also have to tell you that I thought of you and “resting” in the finished work of Christ when I read this passage from William Watson’s(Jesuit) Inviting God into Your Life; A Practical Guide to Prayer:

"…most of us are fearful of our *sinfulness *and of seeking forgiveness and healing when we fall short of love. But listen very carefully: Contrary to making you feel discouraged, the awareness of your failings *in light of God’s love for you *will significantly increase your peace, hope and trust. You will learn that your very identity, security and peace are based not on your ability to be perfect, but on God’s perfect mercy and love for you *in your weakness. *
A growth in the knowledge of your weak and sinful nature won’t make you grow slack in your spiritual quest nor will it discourage you. Your growing awareness and gratitude of Jesus who loved you “while you were still a sinner” will work to increase your desire to serve and to love.

Phil

 

[FillTheVoid]

We all know we can’t earn Salvation on our own.

Why are there so many passages that talk about doing good and obeying etc etc if all you needed to do was have faith and nothing else?

 

[mikeledes]

In order to truly understand the Catholic Church’s teaching on jusrtification and salvation, we really need to understand the nature of a gift. First of all, a gift is something that is freely given, not a payment for something. I think we all agree on that . However, just because a gift is something that is freely given does not mean that it does not come with conditions that have to be met in order not to lose it. If a person gives me a dog as a gift, that does not mean that I am free from responsibilities and obligations. I have to feed the dog, take it to the vet, take it for walks, etc. After accepting the gift, I can chose not to do any of these things or I can do it for a couple of months, get tired, and just stop. But what will happen? I will lose my gift through death and I’ll have a real sanitation problem in my house.

Or what if I give money as a gift to someone to buy gasoline for their car because I know they can’t afford it and their livelihood depends on their car. The person receives the money, but now it is his reponsibilty to purchase the gasoline. If he has gasoline in his tank, it is now his responsibilty and obligation to drive the car.

The fact that those who received the gift have to do something in order to **keep the gift alive **and/or bear fruit does not in anyway change its status as a gift. Since it was freely given and accepted, it will always have its status as a gift.

Similarly, God offers us the gift of righteousness through Christ. Once we accept this gift through faith, we now have the responsility, the obligation, to **conform our lives **to this gift. If we do not do so, or we cease doing so later in life, then we risk losing the gift forever (eternal damnation). How do we conform our lives to this gift? BY FAITH WORKING THROUGH LOVE What does that mean? Like I said time and time again, by keeping the commandments and doing good to others. That is why Christ emphasizes that in order to abide (i.e. remain) in Him, we have to follow his commandments. If justification meant that we would always automatically remain in Christ, then there would be no need for him to that you need keep the commandments (a work) in order to remain in Him. He would simply say, “If you want to remain in me, just have faith.” Or, “if you have faith, you will always remain in me.” And yet, he emphasizes the importance of keeping the commandments in realtion to remaining in him and eternal life. This does not make sense if justification through faith guarantess that you will always remain in Christ. Then why even bother talking about keeping the commandments in order to remain in Him? I thought that was done by faith alone?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

If justification meant that we would always automatically remain in Christ, then there would be no need for him to that you need keep the commandments (a work) in order to remain in Him.

Sorry, I mean to say:

If justification meant that we would always automatically remain in Christ (i.e. justified), then there would be no need for Jesus to say that we need to keep the commandments (a work) in order to remain in Him.

God Bless

 

[mikeledes]

As stated before, to be in Christ is the essence and Biblical equivalent of being justified.

2 Corinthians 5:17

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Now let’s take a look at John 15:6.

If anyone does NOT ABIDE in Me, He is cast out as a branch and withered.

Being *in Christ *is the essence of being justified, of being righteous before God. If we are NOT IN CHRIST, then we cannot be righteous before God and thus we will suffer eternal damnation. So if justification is a permanent guaranteed status, then how on earth can someone no longer abide in Christ. **No longer remaining in Christ means you are no longer justified. ** Otherwise, how can you not *be in Christ *and yet still *be justified *when being justified means being in Christ. That is why the branch withers -which is a symbol of a life without Christ (i.e. spiritual death), - and is thrown into the fire. Tthe phrase "thrown into the fire is always used in the Bible as a reference to eternal damnation (Read Matthew 3:10-12 and Matthew 26:4).

So how do we remain in Christ or, in other words, remain justified, since **being in **Christ is the equivalent of being justifed?
By keeping the commandments (John 15:10, 1 John 3:24), which includes doing works of charity. So we become “in Christ” (justified) by grace through faith, but we remain “in Christ” (justified) by grace through faith working through love.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[CANman]

Pax, Balaam’s donkey and the believer have only one thing in common. Both are recipients of a divine miracle. The miracle for the believer is that he is now “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works” (Eph. 2:10).

Dude, what happens if we don’t do these “good works” we were created for???

 

[JohnWilliams]

This is the key point to understand. Catholics most certainly don’t understand works as obligating God to save us. We don’t believe that any works we do earns us our salvation. We do believe that it is a gift freely given by God. But a gift that is given must also be received. It is through our faith worked out in love that we accept the gift.

And never forget, “faith without works is dead”. How sola Fide can exist in the face of that clear pronouncement is a tribute (?) to the nimbleness of the human mind.

This may be a little bit of a chicken/egg argument but might this verse perhaps provide us a warning?

That is, for example, that if a Protestant believes they are saved by grace through faith, as I do, might they find this verse as a warning that if they are not involved in works - automatically as a natural product of their salvation - then they had maybe better take a closer look at the condition of their heart? That if they are perhaps unrepentant, and haven’t changed their direction that they are heading, that they may not have been saved in the first place?

Or for a Catholic for example, if they find works to be a chore, rather than a natural product of their salvation, then might it perhaps raise a red flag there as well in regard to repentance?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Faith can mature (which is what “perfected” means), especially as one “grows in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Pet. 3:18), but justification is a one time sovereign act of God toward the one who “does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, HIS FAITH is reckoned as righteousness” (Rom. 4:5).

Here is the verse just before 2 Pt 3:1817 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.
This shows you can trip and fall and “lose your stability”, salvation is clearly not a one time act of faith.

Abraham, prior to Gen. 15:6, by faith obeyed the Lord, such as leaving Ur. But not until Gen. 15:6 did Abraham actually "believe IN the Lord." It is this kind of faith, a personal faith IN Him, that God reckoned it (his faith) to Abraham as righteousness.

** You can obey someone but never believe IN him.** Abraham obeyed God by leaving his country, but he came to a point in his life when he actually believed in Him (Gen. 15:6). When it comes to justification, this is the line of demarcation.

Now your cutting off the very branch which supports you. Your saying now when the Bible says so and so had “faith” your saying they didnt necessarily “believe IN God”…the problem with this type of thinking is that such a distinction is rarely made in the Bible and as a result undermines the passages that do talk about faith but dont go into such distinctions.

You have no grounds at all to say someone can “obey God but not believe ‘IN’ Him”, they go hand in hand. Infact your position undermines especially Heb 11 for according to your logic people like Abel, Enoch and Noah were never saved because they never “believed IN Him” they merely “by faith, obeyed Him”.

On the contrary, many people have believed IN God but did NOT obey Him, that is where real punishment comes in. (Mt 7:20-27)

 

[mikeledes]

Catholic Dude,

Now your cutting off the very branch which supports you. Your saying now when the Bible says so and so had “faith” your saying they didnt necessarily “believe IN God”…the problem with this type of thinking is that such a distinction is rarely made in the Bible and as a result undermines the passages that do talk about faith but dont go into such distinctions.

You have no grounds at all to say someone can “obey God but not believe ‘IN’ Him”, they go hand in hand. Infact your position undermines especially Heb 11 for according to your logic people like Abel, Enoch and Noah were never saved because they never “believed IN Him” they merely “by faith, obeyed Him”.

On the contrary, many people have believed IN God but did NOT obey Him, that is where real punishment comes in. (Mt 7:20-27)

This is just another example of how Apophasis redefines a straightforward like “faith” in order to suit his doctrine. He says Rahab was justified by faith, but the only time it talks about Rahab *having faith *is in Hebrews 11, and it does NOT say she “believed in God” or “In Him.” It simply states, “By faith, the harlot Rahab…(Hebrews 11:31).”

God Bless,
Michael

 

[apophasis]

Philthy:

How does a faith “resting” in the redemptive work of Christ manifest itself in the cooperation of our free will with God’s will in the day to day moral challenges we face as humans living in a fallen world?

First of all you must understand that every true believer is regenerated by the Holy Spirit and is therefore “made alive” to the things of God (1 Cor. 2:11-13). He is made painfully aware of what drastic measures it took on God’s part to redeem him (the Incarnation and substitutionary sin-sacrifice of His own Son). Though they know that ALL their sins are forgiven, even buried with Christ, the redeemed know very well they are not to live (walk) in those very sins for which their Savior had to die.

Every day we must make moral choices based on who we are now “in Christ.” As redeemed men and women who are “in” the world (“cosmos,” i.e., this fallen world system) but no longer “of” it:John 15:19 “If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.”

John 17:14-21 “I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil {one.} They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, {are} in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.”
And Paul exhorts the redeemed who are no longer “of” this “cosmos”:Rom 12:1-2 "Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, {which is} your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.It is the redeem’s calling in Christ:Eph 4:1-3 "Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."And this “calling” has a divine purpose and destiny far beyond this “cosmos”hil. 3:20 "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Therefore, my beloved brethren whom I long {to see,} my joy and crown, in this way stand firm in the Lord, my beloved."

So Phil, Paul’s question should still resonate in the hearts and minds of the redeemed: “How shall we who have died to sin (with Christ) still live in it?” (Rom. 6:2ff; cf. 1 Pet. 2:24).

And whatever your answer is, could you please reconcile it with Paul’s statement that if you “have all faith so as to move mountains but have not love” you are nothing?

This is all said in the context of spiritual gifts and the exercising of them within the Body of Christ. It’s not soteriological. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to the redeemed for the edification of the Body. “Faith” in this instance is not salvation faith, but the “gift” of faith, an extraordinary faith.

All the spiritual gifts are given for the purpose of edifying the Church (by “Church” I don’t mean RCC, but the whole “body of Christ”), and not for the puffing up of one’s own ego. So if one is gifted “all faith,” that he could even move mountains, Paul is saying he is nothing unless it is exercised in love - i.e., for the purpose of edifying and benefiting fellow believers. The same principle would apply with the exercise of the gift of tongues, healing, or prophecy. The gifts are given to serve others in the Body, in love, not to boost one’s own ego. If that is the motive when exercised, then truly, he “is nothing.” And such motives will be revealed at the judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor. 4:5; 2 Cor. 5:10; 1 Cor. 3:10-15). A judgment reserved only for believers.

 

[apophasis]

1) The original poster is referring to romans 4, (more specificly the verse that says a man that does no works, but belives in the one who saves the ungodly, is righteous) It is also my understanding this is often the primary point that people that adhere to Faith Alone start at. My Question is simple. Paul in the previous 3 chapters, and for several chapters after, is refrencing the Old law and the Works of the old law (such as not eating types of meet. The various forms of sacrifice, etc). Considering that, would the statement paul is saying could more clearly be reworded like this?
For if a man does not follow the works of the old law, but instead follows christ, he is righteous.

No. Read Romans 4:5 very carefully: “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, HIS FAITH is reckoned as righteousness.” It is his FAITH that is reckoned as righteousness.

Many Catholics like to differentiate between “works of the Law” and “works of faith.” But Paul says, “But to the one who DOES NOT WORK but believes…HIS FAITH is reckoned as righteousness.”

He also cites two men: (1) Abraham who was born prior to the Law of Moses, therefore never under it, and (2) David who was born under the Law and bound to it. BOTH, Paul teaches, were reckoned righteous by God through faith alone, totally “apart from works” of any kind.

1. Putting aside any catholic/non catholic issue…

I don’t consider this a catholic/non-catholic issue. Tragically, that’s how many Catholics view it so, consequently, their arguments are more in defense of their church than merely confronting the doctrine. But it’s a Biblical issue, period. What does the Word of God actually say regarding divine justification? And there is no clearer Scriptural teaching on this subject than Paul’s in Romans four.

Ask your self… Is it just possible, that Paul infact is talkin about works of the Old Law and not about all works? (remember there is a differance betwen Levitical Works, and Moral Works)

No. Are you saying there were no moral Commandments under the Law? What do you call “thou shall not murder, steal, covet, commit adultery,” etc. The Decalogue is an integral part of the Mosaic Law and its Commandments are called “the Law” (Rom. 7:7). Salvation/justification is not based on how well, or if, you keep Commandments, but in whom you put your faith.

ignoring for the moment all the other verses that are going back and forth… looking at this one verse… Can Paul truly be talking about all works and thus Faith Alone if all surrounding versus are simply talking about works of the old law?

As I pointed out, Paul covers both bases. The doctrine of justification by faith in Christ alone is not isolated to Rom. 4:5, it permeates all of Paul’s Epistles to one degree or another.

 

[apophasis]

Here is the verse just before 2 Pt 3:1817 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.
This shows you can trip and fall and “lose your stability”, salvation is clearly not a one time act of faith.

This is talking about one’s spiritual walk, not one’s salvation.

Now your cutting off the very branch which supports you. Your saying now when the Bible says so and so had “faith” your saying they didnt necessarily “believe IN God”…the problem with this type of thinking is that such a distinction is rarely made in the Bible and as a result undermines the passages that do talk about faith but dont go into such distinctions.

In regards to justification and Abraham, Scripture does clearly make this distinction. Not until Gen. 15:6 does it reveal that “Then he believed in the Lord; and He (God) reckoned it (his faith “in” Him) to him as righteousness.” It is this kind of personal faith that justifies. If your “faith” rests in your own “works,” then you’re on dangerous ground. God justifies the ungodly who trust in the Person and work of His Son alone.

You have no grounds at all to say someone can “obey God but not believe ‘IN’ Him”, they go hand in hand.

Not necessarily!

Infact your position undermines especially Heb 11 for according to your logic people like Abel, Enoch and Noah were never saved because they never “believed IN Him” they merely “by faith, obeyed Him”.

Hebrews eleven is not talking about justification. That’s not its context.

On the contrary, many people have believed IN God but did NOT obey Him, that is where real punishment comes in. (Mt 7:20-27)

That’s where no reward comes in.

 

[JohnWilliams]

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

 

[mikeledes]

No. Read Romans 4:5 very carefully: “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, HIS FAITH is reckoned as righteousness.” It is his FAITH that is reckoned as righteousness.

Many Catholics like to differentiate between “works of the Law” and “works of faith.” But Paul says, “But to the one who DOES NOT WORK but believes…HIS FAITH is reckoned as righteousness.”

He also cites two men: (1) Abraham who was born prior to the Law of Moses, therefore never under it, and (2) David who was born under the Law and bound to it. BOTH, Paul teaches, were reckoned righteous by God through faith alone, totally “apart from works” of any kind.I don’t consider this a catholic/non-catholic issue. Tragically, that’s how many Catholics view it so, consequently, their arguments are more in defense of their church than merely confronting the doctrine. But it’s a Biblical issue, period. What does the Word of God actually say regarding divine justification? And there is no clearer Scriptural teaching on this subject than Paul’s in Romans four. No. Are you saying there were no moral Commandments under the Law? What do you call “thou shall not murder, steal, covet, commit adultery,” etc. The Decalogue is an integral part of the Mosaic Law and its Commandments are called “the Law” (Rom. 7:7). Salvation/justification is not based on how well, or if, you keep Commandments, but in whom you put your faith.As I pointed out, Paul covers both bases. The doctrine of justification by faith in Christ alone is not isolated to Rom. 4:5, it permeates all of Paul’s Epistles to one degree or another.

I wish you would stop beating a dead horse. No Catholic here has said that faith is insufficient to make us justified or righteous before God. Faith, apart from works, is sufficient to make us righteous, or become justified. Faith has primacy in salvation because it is the means by which receive the grace of God and the gift of righteousness and also the means by which we receive the grace and spiritual gifts necessary to fulfill our call, our obligation, to live in righteousness (i.e. keeping the commandments and doing works of charity), in order to remain righteous before God. Without faith, becoming righteous and remaining righteous are impossible. There is a difference between becoming and remaining. How did Gloria Vanderbilt become rich? She inherited the money, she did not earn it. How did she remain rich? Through careful management of her money and engaging in other business ventures. Others inherit wealth, but do not remain wealthy, squandering their inheritance like the prodigal son. Let us not squander the spiritual wealth God has freely given us, but - guided by His Grace, let us remain spiritually wealthy until the end.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[heisenburg]

Greetings Apop…

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my comments. I appraciate your willingness to discuss these things.

First, i wish to appologize as I think my wording confused the matter a little. When I asked the ‘is it possible question’ What i am specificly refering to is the works of the old law that we are no longer bound to. These things include not eating types of meat. proper way to prepare bread. How temples are to be built. Basically, the lsit of do’s and donts found in Leviticus. It is that law that you and I both agree that we are no longer bound to. I do appologize if my wording confused you in thinking i was refering to both levitical and moral works.

With that in mind, you made the statement that we catholics like to diferintiate the two. This is because scripture diferentiates the two. As previously mentioned. Paul for the preceeding chapters in romans is extensivly talking about the old law, works of the old law, and how it relates to being a Jew. He continues after 4 talking about these things and how they relate to christ easily into chapter 10.

Since he is talking about works of the old law (like what clothing to wear in the temple, hwo the cloths should be made) for all the verses preceeding it, and more than half of romans after it, why would paul in this one verse change his tone from the old works, to all works, and then revert back to old works.

Romans 4:5 is basicaly a rewording of statemetns he makes later when he says if you submit yourself to the law, yu are bound by the law and christ’s sacrifice amounts to nothing and this is a very true statement. You cannot be a judahizer (sp) and be christian.

This is not an interpretation question so the statement you are intereting it wrong is not valid.

I reiterate, why would paul everywhere else in all surrounding verses be refering to the old law, and works of the old law, but only in romans 4:5 refere to all works.

I would also like to reiterate that Paul is NOT refering to the moral law like feeding the poor, and following the commandments. he is talking about the law that surrounding Judism.

I bring you back to this verse for a reason. I know you wish to point to other verses and say…“but look over here” However that is not really answering the question surrounding this verse.

Paul IS refering to works of the old law (levitcal works)
Paul is not refering to ALL works (Moral)

Saying that paul means all works is taking it out of context. In order to say he IS talking about all works, you have to ignore the countless versus before and after that are very clearly and easily shown talking about the old law and works of the old law…

Please… read these versus carefully… you also need to read the surrounding versus/chapters as well. Also, understand I am not arguing faith alone/faith + works… I am arguing that this verse cannot be used to support faith alone and nothing else. Thats is a differant subject all together than arguing if faith alone is scriptural…

can THIS verse be used to support it. If read in context, the answer is no…

Peace to you in christ

 

[mikeledes]

It just amazes me how one can transform James 2:24 from:

“You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

To:

“You see then that a man is justified by faith only.”

This just blatantly defies the laws of grammar and semantics and completely makes James’s argument irrelevant. The “you see then” clearly indicates that the discussion of the sacrifice of Isaac in the previous verses was designed to prove verse 24. The point was to show how both Abraham’s faith and works work together for a common goal, salvation. When Abraham was justified in Genesis 15, he also received the call to obedience (the “obedience of faith”) that could only be “fulfilled” through the performance of righteous acts. Once you are made righteous, you are obligated to perform righteous acts:

1 John 3:7

**Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous **.

Our righteous status we freely got by grace through faith is fulfilled when we practice righteousness, and hence whenever we perform righteous acts in Christ, they are pleasing to God and ensure the maintenance of our righteous status and our salvation. The call to obedience we automatically received when we were justified is fufilled when we obey God’s commandents, just as Abraham obeyed God’s command to sacrifice his son. God’s commandments can be summarized by the word love, love of God and love of neighbor (Read Luke 10:25-28). Abraham obeyed this call to love when he demonstrated that his love for God was greater than his love for his son. Faith is completed by love. That is why Jesus emphasized that we must love our neighbor in order to remain in Him (i.e. justified) and that is why he told the rich man, "But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). Keeping the commandments is absolutely necessary for entrance into eternal life because it fullfills the purpose of one’s justfication, to live righteously. Failure to fulfill the call to righteousness of justification will ultimately nullify it. That is why James says that man is justified by works and not by faith alone, thus warning Christians not to rely on faith alone for their salvation.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Eph 2:5 “…even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),”

Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;”

2 Tim 1:9 “…who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,”

Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,"I don’t think “have been saved,” “has saved us,” and “He saved us,” are mere implications. Now the one who refuses to believe God’s Word comes back with “Yeah, but it isn’t saying you can’t lose it.” But then Christ Himself would be a liar:John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.“Has” eternal life is not a mere implication, nor is “will not perish.” And “eternal” means everlasting. The problem is not that Scriptures are ambiguous, but that men refuse to believe them.

Hi, I would like to add to this. Forgiv me if someone else already put it out there because I did not read all the posts.

Sunday, November 12
This week’s promise: God will never stop working in our lives
God’s guidance

"I will bless the Lord who guides me; even at night my heart instructs me.
I know the Lord is always with me, I will not be shaken, for he is right beside me.

**Psalm 16:7-8 NLT
The steps of the godly are directed by the Lord. He delights in every detail of their lives. Though they stumble, they will not fall, for the Lord holds them by the hand. **
Psalm 37:23-24
" Giving thanks that God is near
AMEN:thumbsup:

 

[mikeledes]

2 Peter 3:16

As also in all his epitles (Paul’s), speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand…

What can be most difficult to understand in Paul’s epistles then his teachings on justification and salvation. From the beginning of Christian history, it has been at the center of controversy. Unfortunately, people have interpreted his teaching from one extreme to another. The have gone from salvation by works (Pelagianism) to salvation by faith alone (‘eternal security’), neither extreme reflecting the true teachings of Christianity as taught by Christ and His apostles.

The problem with the doctrine of justifiction by faith alone, is that it confuses justification (being made righteous) with glorification (seeing God 'face to face") In Romans 8:30, Paul gives us a general overview of God’s plan of salvation from start to finish. The two final stages of this plan that are relevant to this discussion are justification and glorification. We know that glorification is a future event:

Romans 8:17

And if children, then heirs - heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ if we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Salvation has two fundmanetal stages, justification and glorification. That is why the Bible uses salvation in a past, present, and future tense. Salvation is the past and present tense refers to justification, since it is our first experience of God’s salvation and a foretaste of what is to come. Salvation in the future tense refers to glorification (Romans 13:11). Becoming rightoeus only occurs by grace through faith, but glorification occurs only by grace through faith working through love.

To be continued…

God Bless,
Michael