HELP! Does Romans 4 preach sola fide?

[Antonius_Lupus]

How is it Paul emphatically states that “there is now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus,” and yet your message is “there is yet a threat of condemnation for all those who are in Christ Jesus.” Such a nonbiblical, attached threat is rooted in unbelief. How else can one explain it?

So, you are going to base your supposed “security” on this single verse out of John??? Unlike Evangelicals, Catholics interpret the Scriptures in their TOTALITY.

When this is done it is unequivocally clear that salvation can be lost. This verse in John that says “there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus” is not a verse to be ubiquitously used to prove Eternal Security. The Bible makes it clear that No-one can snatch a beliver from the hand of the Father (John 10:27-28). However it also makes it very clear that we can throw away our salvation by giving into our own sinful desires. When Jesus says, “no one shall snatch them out of my hands,” He does not mean **we **can’t leave His hands. We can **choose **to walk away from Him.

What saith the Scriptures:

ROMANS 11:17-24

17
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have come to share in the rich root of the olive tree,
18
do not boast against the branches. If you do boast, consider that you do not support the root; the root supports you.
19
Indeed you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20
That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe.
21
For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either.
22
See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

This is remarkably similar to what Our LORD says in John 15:1-10;

1
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower.
2
He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit.
3
You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you.
4
**Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. **
5
I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.
6
**Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. **
7
If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you.
8
By this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples.
9
As the Father loves me, so I also love you. Remain in my love.

Look closely at verse 4-6. Why would Jesus call us to remain in Him if we are made that way by “accepting him as our personal Lord and Savior”.

He then tells us how to remain in him:

Verse 10:

*If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. *

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Furthermore the Apostle Paul makes it clear that He too is wary of throwing his salvation away by his own selfish sins:

1 Corinthians 9:25-27----

[25] Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
[26] Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air;
[27] but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

St. Paul writes about achieving the “imperishable” (aphthartos) wreath. Again, to further prove Paul is writing about salvation, “aphthartos” always refers to the eternal. See, for example, 1 Cor. 15:51 (the only other place in New Testament Scripture where “aphthartos” appears relative to humans) where Paul says the dead will be raised “imperishable.” This refers to the resurrection of our salvation. Paul says that only one person wins the “prize” (brabeion). To further prove that the race Paul is writing about refers to our journey to heaven, “brabeion” **always **has a soteriological implication. See, for example, Phil. 3:14 where “prize” refers to the upward call of God in Christ Jesus (which is heaven). Paul says that all the runners compete, but only one wins the prize. Paul recognizes that if he doesn’t train himself properly in perseverance, he too can become “disqualified.”

The word “disqualified” comes from the Greek word “adokimos” which literally means cut off from Christ, or reprobate. When “adokimos” is used in the Scriptures, it always refers to those who are to be condemned by God. It has nothing to do with going to heaven with less rewards. See, for example, Rom. 1:28; Titus 1:16; 2 Tim. 3:8; Heb. 6:8; 2 Cor. 13:5-7—some other verses where “adokimos” is used. This shows that St. Paul thought he could lose his salvation. No one would reasonably argue that Paul wasn’t “saved” when he wrote the Scriptures. So if St. Paul thought that he could lose his salvation, why do Evangelicals think that they cannot lose theirs?

What say you???

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Let me clarify this for you, my friend. You are not to judge someone’s heart—PERIOD—whether it pertains to someone’s personal salvation, or the fact that they do not adhere to apophasis’ interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures (especially the Pauline epistles).

Evangelicals are the more judgemental of Protestants. I know, I used to be another arrogant Evangelical myself!

 

[Mickey]

Evangelicals are the more judgemental of Protestants. I know, I used to be another arrogant Evangelical myself!

Welcome home and God bless!

 

[mikeledes]

What is the Book of Life? The book of life contains the names of the righteous of the Old and New Testaments:

Revelation 20:15

“And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Only those justified by grace can be in this book. Is there a possibility that someone’s name can be erased? Revelation 3:5 raises that possibilty:

“He who OVERCOMES will thus be clothed in white garments and I will not erase his name from the book of life…”

So the strong implication is that the Christian that does not overcome (i.e. endure to the end) will have his/her name erased from the book of life. This fits with the biblical fact that only those who endure to the end will be saved. Why bring up the possibility of erasure from the book of life if those who are justified are eternally secure? Eternal security automatically means that there will be no erasure from the book of life. Now compare this verse with Exodus 32:32-33:

“But now, if you will, forgive their sin - and if not, please blot me out of the book which you have written!” The Lord said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot out of my book."

You might say this is from the Old Testament. So was the justification of Abraham by faith. Or did God have two standards for determining who would be in the Book of Life? Only the justified can be in the Book of Life. If a justified person does not persevere to the end by dying in sin, he/she shall be erased from the Book of Life and will suffer eternal damnation. This hearkens back to John 15 and its related passages (Romans 11:21-22, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Revelation 22:19).

God Bless,
Michael

 

[apophasis]

So it is because of my “unbelief” that I am unable to understand Scipture and that’s why I “gloss” over certain passages.

Yes!

That’s very interesting because I gave you a whole list of Bible passages and you chose to address only one. Why?

Because they give us only so many characters to write our response, and I only have so much time to dedicate on this forum.

But even if I were to give you a response to every passage you quote, it wouldn’t cure your unbelief in all that God has wrought in the believer according to His GRACE through the Person and work of His Son. Unbelief would still remain your root problem.

 

[apophasis]

Evangelicals are the more judgemental of Protestants. I know, I used to be another arrogant Evangelical myself!

Are you saying that now you’re a Catholic you’ve lost your arrogance?

 

[apophasis]

Furthermore the Apostle Paul makes it clear that He too is wary of throwing his salvation away by his own selfish sins:

1 Corinthians 9:25-27----

[25] Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
[26] Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air;
[27] but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

St. Paul writes about achieving the “imperishable” (aphthartos) wreath. Again, to further prove Paul is writing about salvation, “aphthartos” always refers to the eternal. See, for example, 1 Cor. 15:51 (the only other place in New Testament Scripture where “aphthartos” appears relative to humans) where Paul says the dead will be raised “imperishable.” This refers to the resurrection of our salvation. Paul says that only one person wins the “prize” (brabeion). To further prove that the race Paul is writing about refers to our journey to heaven, “brabeion” **always **has a soteriological implication. See, for example, Phil. 3:14 where “prize” refers to the upward call of God in Christ Jesus (which is heaven). Paul says that all the runners compete, but only one wins the prize. Paul recognizes that if he doesn’t train himself properly in perseverance, he too can become “disqualified.”

The word “disqualified” comes from the Greek word “adokimos” which literally means cut off from Christ, or reprobate. When “adokimos” is used in the Scriptures, it always refers to those who are to be condemned by God. It has nothing to do with going to heaven with less rewards. See, for example, Rom. 1:28; Titus 1:16; 2 Tim. 3:8; Heb. 6:8; 2 Cor. 13:5-7—some other verses where “adokimos” is used. This shows that St. Paul thought he could lose his salvation. No one would reasonably argue that Paul wasn’t “saved” when he wrote the Scriptures. So if St. Paul thought that he could lose his salvation, why do Evangelicals think that they cannot lose theirs?

What say you???

I say you’re WAY off base, no matter how much you try to prove your case by the Greek. Even there you’re way off. The warrior of “justification and slavation by faith apart from works” would not make such a blatant contradiction. You totally fail to understand Paul’s basic teachings on salvation and justification, so how could you possibly understand his teachings on sanctification?

The context of 1 Cor. 9:25-27 is rewards (see 1 Cor. 3:8-15). Having summoned many to enter the “race” through faith in Christ Jesus, he disciplines his own body so as not to be, himself, disqualified from “imperishable” rewards.

Salvation, justification and eternal life, Paul clearly teaches elsewhere, are “gifted” by God through faith in Christ alone (Rom. 3:24; 6:23; Eph. 2:8-9); they’re never “rewards” earned and received at the end of one’s life. They’re not prizes for which one strives to win.

You’re way off, my friend.

 

[mikeledes]

I say you’re WAY off base, no matter how much you try to prove your case by the Greek. Even there you’re way off. The warrior of “justification and slavation by faith apart from works” would not make such a blatant contradiction. You totally fail to understand Paul’s basic teachings on salvation and justification, so how could you possibly understand his teachings on sanctification?

The context of 1 Cor. 9:25-27 is rewards (see 1 Cor. 3:8-15). Having summoned many to enter the “race” through faith in Christ Jesus, he disciplines his own body so as not to be, himself, disqualified from “imperishable” rewards.

Salvation, justification and eternal life, Paul clearly teaches elsewhere, are “gifted” by God through faith in Christ alone (Rom. 3:24; 6:23; Eph. 2:8-9); they’re never “rewards” earned and received at the end of one’s life. They’re not prizes for which one strives to win.

You’re way off, my friend.

You are the one that is way off, Apophasis. The crown in the Bible is promised to ALL Christians, not to those Christians who perform superlatively (James 1:12, 2 Timothy 4:8). It is not a separate reward, but an inseparable aspect of glorification.

BTW, I’m not as close minded as you portray me. I have tested your arguments and have seen that they do not hold water. Unfortunately, our views of others are often a projection of our own way of thinking.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[PattiC]

Evangelicals are the more judgemental of Protestants. I know, I used to be another arrogant Evangelical myself!

Antonius,

Could you please please pray for my best friend Jim who is a very hard headed judgemental Protestant? I can’t seem to get into a decent “argument” with him because he keeps going around in circles and building straw men!!

Very very hard. I know that only the Holy Spirit can direct his heart, but he just won’t “Hear” so that he can get the truth. Am very frustrated with this entire situation. Thanks so much.

Patti

 

[mikeledes]

There is no threat of condemnation for those who live and die in Christ:

Matthew 10:22

“… but it is the one WHO HAS ENDURED TO THE END that will be saved.”

Revelation 3:5

“He who OVERCOMES will thus be clothed in white garments and I will not erase his name from the book of life…”

Revelation 2:10

“Be faithful until DEATH, and I will give you the crown of life.”

Hebrews 3:14

“For we have become partakers of Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.”

These verses talk about persevering in Christ until the end in order to enjoy the final consummation of our salvation, glorification or entrance “into eternal life (Matthew 25:46).”

God bless,
Michael

No respnse?

 

[mikeledes]

What is the Book of Life? The book of life contains the names of the righteous of the Old and New Testaments:

Revelation 20:15

“And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Only those justified by grace can be in this book. Is there a possibility that someone’s name can be erased? Revelation 3:5 raises that possibilty:

“He who OVERCOMES will thus be clothed in white garments and I will not erase his name from the book of life…”

So the strong implication is that the Christian that does not overcome (i.e. endure to the end) will have his/her name erased from the book of life. This fits with the biblical fact that only those who endure to the end will be saved. Why bring up the possibility of erasure from the book of life if those who are justified are eternally secure? Eternal security automatically means that there will be no erasure from the book of life. Now compare this verse with Exodus 32:32-33:

“But now, if you will, forgive their sin - and if not, please blot me out of the book which you have written!” The Lord said to Moses, **“Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot **out of my book.”

You might say this is from the Old Testament. So was the justification of Abraham by faith. Or did God have two standards for determining who would be in the Book of Life? Only the justified can be in the Book of Life. If a justified person does not persevere to the end by dying in sin, he/she shall be erased from the Book of Life and will suffer eternal damnation. This hearkens back to John 15 and its related passages (Romans 11:21-22, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Revelation 22:19).

God Bless,
Michael

No response?

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

You are the one that is way off, Apophasis. The crown in the Bible is promised to ALL Christians, not to those Christians who perform superlatively (James 1:12, 2 Timothy 4:8). It is not a separate reward, but an inseparable aspect of glorification.

God Bless,
Michael

Brother Michael has made an excellent point here.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

I say you’re WAY off base, no matter how much you try to prove your case by the Greek. Even there you’re way off. The warrior of “justification and slavation by faith apart from works” would not make such a blatant contradiction. You totally fail to understand Paul’s basic teachings on salvation and justification, so how could you possibly understand his teachings on sanctification?

You’re way off, my friend.

When St. Paul says "salvation by faith apart from works he is not excluding all works. Often times St. Paul speaks of the works of Torah. (Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16) You must understand that the Jewish people never believed that one could earn God’s love by following the Torah. Rather they believed that they were chosen by Yahweh’s grace and the works of Torah were their response to that relationship. The problem is that the works of Torah had no salvific value. Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. How do I know this? The proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent (“hrvt ysm”) meaning “deeds of the law,” or Mosaic law. St. James writing in James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.”

Rather St. James uses “ergois agathois” which is a totally different word with accompanied conotations. Therefore, Paul’s “works of the law” and James’ “works” are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired and inerrant word of God. We have been saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-10), not because of “works,” lest anyone boast. This much-quoted verse by refers to the “**works” of the Mosaic law **or any works performed in a legalistic sense, where we view God as a debtor to us, and not as our heavenly Father. St. Paul is teaching us that, with the coming of Christ, we are now saved by grace through faith, not by Mosaic or legal works, works that give us a knowledge of sin, but don’t provide a way out of sin.

The only way that our good works can “work out our salvation” (Philippians 2:12) is if they are done in faith. St. Paul shows us this in Romans 9:30-33—

30: What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith;
31: but that Israel who pursued the righteousness which is based on law did not succeed in fulfilling that law.
32: Why? Because they did not pursue it through faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33: as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone that will make men stumble, a rock that will make them fall; and he who believes in him will not be put to shame.”

 

[Mickey]

When St. Paul says "salvation by faith apart from works he is not excluding all works. Often times St. Paul speaks of the works of Torah. (Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16) You must understand that the Jewish people never believed that one could earn God’s love by following the Torah. Rather they believed that they were chosen by Yahweh’s grace and the works of Torah were their response to that relationship. The problem is that the works of Torah had no salvific value. Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. How do I know this? The proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent (“hrvt ysm”) meaning “deeds of the law,” or Mosaic law. St. James writing in James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.”

Rather St. James uses “ergois agathois” which is a totally different word with accompanied conotations. Therefore, Paul’s “works of the law” and James’ “works” are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired and inerrant word of God. We have been saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-10), not because of “works,” lest anyone boast. This much-quoted verse by refers to the “**works” of the Mosaic law **or any works performed in a legalistic sense, where we view God as a debtor to us, and not as our heavenly Father. St. Paul is teaching us that, with the coming of Christ, we are now saved by grace through faith, not by Mosaic or legal works, works that give us a knowledge of sin, but don’t provide a way out of sin.

The only way that our good works can “work out our salvation” (Philippians 2:12) is if they are done in faith. St. Paul shows us this in Romans 9:30-33—

30: What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith;
31: but that Israel who pursued the righteousness which is based on law did not succeed in fulfilling that law.
32: Why? Because they did not pursue it through faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33: as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone that will make men stumble, a rock that will make them fall; and he who believes in him will not be put to shame.”

Good post.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

You totally fail to understand Paul’s basic teachings on salvation and justification, so how could you possibly understand his teachings on sanctification?

No, I understand what St. Paul means. Unlike most Evangelicals, St. Paul is not dichotomizing justification and sanctification. They both go hand in hand with regard to salvation.

The Evangelical avowel is that Justification is a legal declaration. For Evangelicals justification is a one-time experience, and it is best exemplified by a court procedure. Id Est, we, as totally depraved sinners, stand before God the Father who legally declares us innocent by the imputation of Christ’s work on the cross. Basically for Evangelicals, salvation is like having a filthy man who is simply covered with snow-white garmets. Martin Luther frankly acknowledged this position, describing a justified man as a snow-covered pile of dung, clean on the outside but not on the inside. The robe is not a part of the dirty man, nor is the snow part of the dunghill; they only hide the filth while remaining exterior and separate. The sinner himself isn’t clean or just, but he appears (or is called) clean and just. Sanctification (according to Evangelicals) is a secondary stage in which the beliver is made holy by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This process is finalized by the eventual glorification at the Last Judgement and Ressurection.

As logical as this sounds, it is not Biblically based. Rather it is a relativily new Protestant invention based on faulty Biblical exegesis.

I’d like to quote something from cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=86

"The Catholic view of initial justification is more like bathing or healing, such as a hospitable man washing a dirty man or a physician medicating a sick man to make him healthy. In other words, God doesn’t simply call a man clean and justified or make him look clean and just, He actually makes him clean with no dirt or sickness remaining. The Protestant claim is that God makes us appear just with no interior transformation, but the Catholic teaching is that God actually transforms us into just people. Catholics do not deny that God “declares” people clean and innocent, as if by legal decree. They believe that He goes further, however, and actually makes people clean and innocent. God is not a liar (Num. 23:19); He would not call a man clean and just without making him clean and just, for “nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27). God’s Word is efficacious; i.e., He brings about, in reality, what He decrees. Creation itself is a powerful example of this truth. God said, “Let there be light,” and light was created (Gen. 1:3). If God declares that we are clean of sin, we become truly clean: “So shall My word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to Me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it” (Is. 55:11)."

There are a multitude of Bible verses that clearly show this:

(Psalm 51:1-2, Psalm 51:7-9, Isaiah 1:18, Isaiah 43:25, Isaiah 44:22, Isaiah 64:5, Ezek. 36:26-27, Ezek. 37:23, Acts 3:19, Acts 22:16, 1 Cor. 6:11, Rom. 5:17, 2 Cor. 3:18, 2 Cor. 5:17, 2 Cor. 7:1, Gal. 6:15, Col. 3:10, Titus 3:5.)

Brother Apophasis read these verses listed above and meditate on them. I assure you that if you humble yourself and throw off your biases you will find the truth, and it will set you free.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

How do I know this? The proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent (“hrvt ysm”) meaning “deeds of the law,” or Mosaic law."

If you want to see the Dead Sea scroll document it is called 4QMMT or just MMT.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

I’d talk more but today is the beginning Mid-term Exam for High School seniors.

PRAY FOR ME!!!

 

[Mickey]

I’d talk more but today is the beginning Mid-term Exam for High School seniors.

PRAY FOR ME!!!

Man, you are 17 years old and you speak like a seasoned theologian. I am impressed!

I will pray that the Lord keeps you calm during mid-terms.

 

[apophasis]

When St. Paul says "salvation by faith apart from works he is not excluding all works. Often times St. Paul speaks of the works of Torah. (Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16) You must understand that the Jewish people never believed that one could earn God’s love by following the Torah. Rather they believed that they were chosen by Yahweh’s grace and the works of Torah were their response to that relationship. The problem is that the works of Torah had no salvific value. Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. How do I know this? The proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent (“hrvt ysm”) meaning “deeds of the law,” or Mosaic law. St. James writing in James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.”

As I pointed out before, Paul in Rom.4 cites TWO men: Abraham who was born prior to the Law and therefore never bound to it; and David, a Jew, born under it and therefore bound to it as a rule of life. BOTH were justified by God APART FROM WORKS. That’s works of any kind. Not just works of the Mosaic Law. But any works they could do “in righteousness” (Titus 3:5). Justification is a GIFT given to the one who believes,“through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (see Rom. 3:23-24). The “work” by which God justifies was completed, in full, by Christ Himself. There can be no other works by which God can justify. And please take note again - it is the “UNGODLY” whom God justifies through faith (Rom. 4:5).

The legalistic mind simply cannot understand Paul’s teachings on justification. Better, the Holy Spirit’s teachings.