HELP! Does Romans 4 preach sola fide?

[Tom]

Faith alone is a wide gate isn’t it?
www.drbo.org:

MT 7,13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. 14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it! 15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 By their fruits you shall know them.

By their “fruits”? you mean we have to do something?
www.drbo.org:

MT 7,17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.

Again with the “fruits”?
www.drbo.org:

MT 7,21 ***Not every one ***that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Does the will? Again we have to do something?
www.drbo.org:

MT 7,22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. 24 Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, 27 And the rain fell, and

Any question of “faith alone”? or do we really need to “do” something? MT 7,22 speaks of those who attempt to “earn” their way into heaven.

 

[apophasis]

I don’t understand why this is still going on. John Henry explained in the 9th post the discrepency. Paul was referring to “works of the Law” NOT “works” of Christian charity.
These had faith AND acted.
These had “faith alone”. End of discussion.

So you’re saying works of the Law don’t count, but Christian works of charity count toward one’s reckoned justification? In other words, there were no “works of charity” in the Law? Read what Christ said regarding the Law:Matt 22:35-40 "One of them, a lawyer, asked Him {a question,} testing Him, “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And He said to him, " ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."Yet you agree that “works of the Law” cannot save or justify a man. How are “works of Christian charity” any different or superior to the overall intent of the Law???

You’re missing the whole point Paul is stressing, this side of the cross (as well as ALL the N.T. writers:Rom. 4:2-5 "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"If personal works of any kind are involved with divine justification then it (justification) is not credited (reckoned) as a divine FAVOR, but is rendered to the workman as what *is due *to him by God. It is considered as a “wage,” a payment due.

But that is NOT the divine principle by which God justifies any man, prior to Christ or after Christ; priot to the cross or after the cross. God justifies, freely (of no cause), the ungodly who trust in Christ and His work for them, alone. It is rendered BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, and FAITH alone; as demonstrated waaaaay back in Gen. 15:6. Anything other than this is a corruption and distortion of the gospel as revealed in God’s written Word.

 

[Tom]

So you’re saying works of the Law don’t count, but Christian works of charity count toward one’s reckoned justification?

What I’m saying is the entire argument of “works” vs no “works” is based on a misreading of the writings of Paul. A mistake which Peter so wisely warns us of in 2 Peter, chapter 3:
drbo.org:

2 Pt 3, 15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness.

In ALL of the writings of Paul, he is referring to “works of the Law”, nothing else. Simply that a person did not need to follow the Jewish Law. Which of course a person does not. Paul was exactly correct you do not need to do “works of the Law” in order to be saved. That’s all he is saying. Nothing more. To try to say he is referring to anything else is incorrect.

 

[Tom]

In other words, there were no “works of charity” in the Law?

No, “in other words”. I don’t care if there are “works of Charity” in the Jewish Law, it’s irrelevant. Paul was referring to works of the Law NOT being necessary.

Read what Christ said regarding the Law:Matt 22:35-40 "One of them, a lawyer, asked Him {a question,} testing Him, “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And He said to him, " ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”.

First “commandment” love the Lord with all of your heart, soul, and mind. And what exactly does Jesus say we would “do”, “if” we love Him?
drbo.org:

Jn 14, 10 Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works. 11 Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? 12 Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do. 13 Because I go to the Father: and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, that will I do: that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you shall ask me any thing in my name, that I will do. 15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

 

[Tom]

Now, since Paul is solely referring to “works of the Law” nothing else. Where is your reasoning in faith alone? Something specifically rejected in Scripture.

 

[Tom]

And what exactly does Jesus say we would “do”, “if” we love Him?

www.drbo.org:

John 10,38 But if I do, though you will not believe me, believe the works: that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.
John 13,34 A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
John 14,15 If you love me, keep my commandments.
John 14,23 Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him.
John 15,7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you.
John 15,10 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father’s commandments, and do abide in his love.
John 15,12 This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you.
John 15,17 These things I command you, that you love one another.
John 15,20 Remember my word that I said to you: The servant is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you: if they have kept my word, they will keep yours also.
Matthew 5,44 But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you:

We are definately called to do, not “faith only”, unless you understand that by doing our “works” we’re showing our faith, then it’s just an argument over verbage.

 

[Pax]

The legalistic mind simply cannot understand Paul’s teachings on justification. Better, the Holy Spirit’s teachings.

This kind of statement has no place in the discussion. You have been shown over and over again how scripture clearly shows that what you believe is an error. This has nothing to do with legalism.

Our view is one that declares that “everything” concerning salvation, which includes both our faith and our works, is by way of God’s grace and our being a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works per Eph 2:8-10. There is no legalism involved in this at all.

You should at least attempt to refute all of the pertinent verses that have been given to you over the course of this thread, rather than simply repeating the same verses that you believe support your position. So far on this thread, and all of the other threads that I have read your (name removed by moderator)ut concerning salvation, you have utterly failed to do this.

If there is a legalistic view it is yours. Anyone that believes that we have nothing more than a forensic declaration of righteousness is IMHO taking the legalistic view. This is a denial of rebirth, a new creation, living by the spirit, being regenerated, and being made holy as part of our justification. This is a denial of the fullness of Eph 2:8-10.

 

[apophasis]

What I’m saying is the entire argument of “works” vs no “works” is based on a misreading of the writings of Paul. A mistake which Peter so wisely warns us of in 2 Peter, chapter 3:
In ALL of the writings of Paul, he is referring to “works of the Law”, nothing else. Simply that a person did not need to follow the Jewish Law. Which of course a person does not. Paul was exactly correct you do not need to do “works of the Law” in order to be saved. That’s all he is saying. Nothing more. To try to say he is referring to anything else is incorrect.

This is not true! What other “works” did God ever specify? Can you give me the list of works He now demands in order to consummate your justification?

With Christ came a whole new dispensation, even a whole new age of “faith,” based on God’s Word concerning His Son, exampled by Abraham who lived prior to the Law and was credited righteous through faith in His word alone (Gen. 15:6). As Paul teaches elsewhere in Galatians:Gal 3:6-9 “Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, {saying,} “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.”

Gal 3:23-24 "But before faith came, we (Jews) were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith."As Paul says, just like Abraham, the believer, who lived prior to the Law and was justified strictly by faith, apart from any works (Rom. 4:5-6; obviously Abraham could not do "works of the Law since he did not live during the dispensation of Law).

The WHOLE point Paul is making in Romans chapter four is that divine justification is reckoned (credited) to the ungodly based on* faith *in Christ alone (Rom. 4:5).

 

[Pax]

This is not true! What other “works” did God ever specify? Can you give me the list of works He now demands in order to consummate your justification?

These questions typify your errant view of scripture and Catholic belief. It is simply wrong to ask these kinds of questions because they assume the involvement of a “wage.”

We have repeatedly demonstrated that living by the Spirit and that faith working through love are not a “wage”. You should certainly realize by now that these questions have no place in the discussion. I can only surmise that such questions are only posed in order to avoid the obvious and frequently hammered points made over the course of this thread.

Please address our arguments and our understandings of the scriptures we presented as opposed to the objects of your strawman arguments.

 

[Pax]

What I’m saying is the entire argument of “works” vs no “works” is based on a misreading of the writings of Paul. A mistake which Peter so wisely warns us of in 2 Peter, chapter 3:

In ALL of the writings of Paul, he is referring to “works of the Law”, nothing else. Simply that a person did not need to follow the Jewish Law. Which of course a person does not. Paul was exactly correct you do not need to do “works of the Law” in order to be saved. That’s all he is saying. Nothing more. To try to say he is referring to anything else is incorrect.

This is not true! …
…
…

Apophasis,

Please go back and read post # 413 and others to dispel your objection.

 

[runandsew]

Sorry, but you’re in total error on this. It is not until Gen. 15:6 that it is recorded that Abraham believed “in the Lord” and He (God) reckoned it (Abraham’s faith “in Him”) AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. God did not credit it to him as “an ACT of righteousness,” but He credited it, his belief in Him, AS righteousness (justified him). You have changed the text to conform to your own religion’s theology.

This side of the cross men are called, through the gospel message of Christ, to believe “in Him” - the sole Object of salvation faith. The only faith that justifies. It is what Paul calls, “obedience of faith” among the Gentiles (Rom. 1:5).

And this is what many who call themselves “Christians” have not done. They instead believe in “works” to* justifiy* them, and run to men to be reconciled to God and to have their sins “absolved.” Hence their “faith” rests in everything BUT Christ. I would ask as James, “can that faith save him?”

Genesis chapter 12 verse 7
The LORD appeared to Abram and said, “To your descendants I will give this land.” So Abram built an altar there to the LORD who had appeared to him.

Genesis chapter 13 verse 18
Abram moved his tents and went on to settle near the terebinth of Mamre, which is at Hebron. There he built an altar to the LORD.

Are you saying that Abram build an altar to someone he didn’t believe in?
That doesn’t make sense.
I am sorry, but I do not think that my assumption that when Abram talks with God, and builds him an altar, that this shows a belief is an error.

This shows me that Abraham came to belief back in the early chapters. When Paul is using this as an example of faith apart from works of the Law, all he is showing is that Abraham was justified before he was circumcised.
This is not just my opinion, but how the church fathers viewed this, and the way the church taught about this until Martin Luther misread Paul some 1,500 years after Paul wrote.
He would not recant from teaching his error, and he was ex-communicated.
Sorry, but that is real history, and I just can’t ignore it or revise it to suit my beliefs if they differ from it.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Salvation, justification and eternal life, Paul clearly teaches elsewhere, are “gifted” by God through faith in Christ alone (Rom. 3:24; 6:23; Eph. 2:8-9); they’re never “rewards” earned and received at the end of one’s life. They’re not prizes for which one strives to win.

You’re way off, my friend.

Indeed, our salvation is not a prize that we seek to win. I never said that. What I did say is that we must cooperate with God’s work in our lives "working out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

On a lighter note: I have my midterms the rest of this week. Please pray for me!!!

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

As I pointed out before, Paul in Rom.4 cites TWO men: Abraham who was born prior to the Law and therefore never bound to it; and David, a Jew, born under it and therefore bound to it as a rule of life. BOTH were justified by God APART FROM WORKS. That’s works of any kind. Not just works of the Mosaic Law. But any works they could do “in righteousness” (Titus 3:5). Justification is a GIFT given to the one who believes,“through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (see Rom. 3:23-24). The “work” by which God justifies was completed, in full, by Christ Himself. There can be no other works by which God can justify. And please take note again - it is the “UNGODLY” whom God justifies through faith (Rom. 4:5).

The legalistic mind simply cannot understand Paul’s teachings on justification. Better, the Holy Spirit’s teachings.

When St. Paul talks about “apart from works” he is not always talking about Torah (although he usually is). Rather, St. Paul is refering to the initial phase of our salvation (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5,8, 2 Tim. 1:9, Titus 3:5). You see, St. Paul teaches us that our Works when done without faith in Christ have no salvific value. They merely put us into a deeper debt in God.

Faith Justifies Initially, but Works Perfect and Complete Justification

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

When I read the awesome posts of my Catholic bretheren, I am utterly amazed. The Holy Spirit uses them to convey his truth.

I cannot wait till Easter when I can recieve the Holy Spirit in full with the sacrament of Confirmation!

James Akin wrote an awesome book concerning the subject of Faith Alone. It’s called “The Salvation Controversy”. Anyone who wants to know what the Bible teaches about salvation should read this book!!!

 

[Art]

Rom 4:3, “For what does the scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it wasa reckoned to him as righteousness”. It seems that this is the magic bullet to show Abraham was saved by faith alone. on the cotrary, look at any bible at that verse and it will show it is a quote from Gen 15:6. So if Sola Fide is true, Gen 15:6 is when Abraham first beleived. If you look at what happens before 15:6 you see that Abraham;
According to Heb 11:8, Abraham already had faith “By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go.” That is a quote from Gen 12 which takes place about a decade before Gen 15:6.

In Gen 12:4 Abram obeys God, Gen 12:7 & 8 Abram builds an altars to the Lord. Gen 12:10 and following, Abram is still trusting God as he goes to Egypt and has a run in with Pharaoh. Gen 13:4 Abram “calls on the name of the Lord”. shades of Rom 10:12 For, “every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” Abram called on the name of the lord, isn’t he justified yet?

Gen 13:8 Abram lets Lot have the good land while he takes the not so good land. Gen 13:17-18 Abraham obeys God again and builds another altar to God. Gen 14 Abram fights the battle of the Lord and paid tiths to Melchizedek who blessed him.

Now we come to Gen 15:6, after all that he is “now” justified by faith alone? Absolutly not.

 

[apophasis]

Indeed, our salvation is not a prize that we seek to win. I never said that. What I did say is that we must cooperate with God’s work in our lives "working out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

First of all Phil. 2:12 does not mean work “for” salvation with fear and trembling. But to work out (outwardly), with the same humility of Christ as described by Paul in Phil. 2:1-8, the salvation which has already occurred inwardly through faith in Him.

But Catholicism does teach salvation as a “prize” with its doctrine of “cooperation.” Salvation is a “prize” if it at all depends on ANY works one must perform (even those so-called cooperative works), and its final determination is at the end of one’s life. Paul logically calls it a “wage due.”

“Cooperative salvation” is a Catholic doctrine, not Pauline, not Biblical. Biblical savation is based on ONE work, and one work alone, and entered into through faith alone: the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. The same goes for justification.

It’s all right there in Rom. 4:4-5. You can’t miss it, except in unbelief.

 

[apophasis]

When St. Paul talks about “apart from works” he is not always talking about Torah (although he usually is). Rather, St. Paul is refering to the initial phase of our salvation (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5,8, 2 Tim. 1:9, Titus 3:5). You see, St. Paul teaches us that our Works when done without faith in Christ have no salvific value. They merely put us into a deeper debt in God.

Paul teaches no such thing.Rom 4:4-5 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. BUT to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"Paul is saying that justification is based on a completely different principle than works, the principle of FAITH. If it is based on works then it (justification) would be a payment by God to us; it would be God who is indebed to us, not us to God. But justification is based on a wholly different principle - FAITH.

Faith Justifies Initially, but Works Perfect and Complete Justification

“Initial” justification is a Catholilc doctrine, not Pauline or Biblical. Works do not complete justification. They “perfect” FAITH, i.e., cause maturity of faith, as James states in 2:22, but justification is complete in and of itself because it is based on the finished work of Christ:Rom 3:24 "…being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;Paul is very consistent in his teachings.

 

[mikeledes]

Apophasis, you said that unbelief blots you out of the Book of Life, or at least strongly implied that. Unbelief keeps you out of the Book of Life, it does not erase you from the book, that is, if you don’t apostasize. In order to be blotted out or erased from a book, you have to be in the book to begin with. That is just logic, common sense, and the standard meaning and use of the word “blot” or “erase.”

In order to bein the Book of Life, you have to be righteous before God. Therefore, those are not righteous before God can never be part of the Book and hence cannot be erased from something they’ve never been a part of. Erasure only applies to those who are righteous before God and hence form part of the Book.

I did not say that sinning against God blots you from the Book of God. That was said by God Himself in Exodus 32:32-33. Please read that verse carefully. Jesus ptomised that those WHO OVERCOME will never be erased from the Book of Life, thus implying that the justified that do not endure to the end will be erased from the Book of Life. That is why the Bible clearly states that those who endure to the end wil be saved.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Sean_Boyle]

You can’t miss it, except in unbelief.

We can all agree with you on that comment.

What exactly do you plan on gaining with these types of comments.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

It’s all right there in Rom. 4:4-5. You can’t miss it, except in unbelief.

I love this, it’s the typical Evangelical assertion: “You’re not a true Christian and haven’t been “saved” so you can’t understand what the Bible says.”

Its absurdity is a major reason why I left Evangelicalism to embrace the Biblical Church.