HELP! Does Romans 4 preach sola fide?

[mikeledes]

I accept the simple and clear teachings of Paul in Romans 4. What I don’t accept is your teachings on Romans 4. There are other verses that present clear teaching, such as John 15, which you interpret in such a way that completely changes the straightforward meaning and usage of the words and that even contradicts what your fellow “eternal security” Protestants have said about that verse. Take the following for example:

This is from the “Grace to You” Website"http://www.gty.org/index.php

Which upholds the doctrine of “eternal security.” They see the “thrown in the fire” as a clear reference to eternal damnation, NOT a form of temporal punishment. But at least you have the good sense to see that the branches can only refer to thos who have been saved because the “branches” are described as being in Christ (In ME). Unless one has been genuinely incorporated into Christ, one could not be a branch of the vine. Otherwise, one would not be a branch to begin with. But at least you see through that error, so you’re not that bad .

But the fact that the supporters of eternal security are evading the straightforward meaning of the text at all cost is understandable because it completely contradicts their teaching. Their unwillingness to see (I won’t use “unbelief”) makes any appeal to logic, common sense, and other supporting Bible passages (like the ones I’ve listed earlier) fall on deaf ears.

God Bless,
Michael

I reaffirm what I said here and present John 15 as a clear example of someone who was in Christ but was blotted out of the Book of Life (“takes away”, “dries up,” “cast into the fire.”) The language is clearly that of damnation, as many of your fellow Sola Fide Eternal Security Protestants believe and affirm. You are right in seeing that the Branches as symbolizing those who are genuinely “in Christ” and they are right in seeing the “cast into the fire” and “takes away” as a clear reference to eternal damnation. Combine the two and you end up with the clear striaghtforward meaning of the passage both you and they are desperately trying to evade, namely, the Catholic one. Why do you and your fellow belivers contradict each other on the meaning of this passage?

It is about fruit bearing and how we are able to bear fruit through our relationship with Christ. But it also discusses what happens to those who willingly refuse to bear fruit to God, eternal damnation.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

The Catholic Church, Apophasis, does not teach that good works are the “cause of justification”. Good works are the fruit of justification. Practicing righteousness does not make a person rigfhteous before God nor is being righteous the sum total of our righteous acts. Rather, a person FREELY made righteous by performs righteous acts. Righteous acts that please acts that please God can only flow out of a heart that has been freely regenerated by God:

Ezekiel 36:26
“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart fo stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and CAUSE YOU to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe my ordinances.”

Luke 6:45
“The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good…”

1 John 2:28
“If you know He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.”

God’s free gift of righteousness must PRECEDE any righteous act we must perform.

Therefore, the origin of our righteous acts DOES NOT lie in the human will, but in the Holy Spirit freely given at justification.

Galatians 5:22-23
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindmess, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, against such things there is no law… If welive by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.”

To be continued…

 

[mom2three]

Apophasis, you said that unbelief blots you out of the Book of Life, or at least strongly implied that. Unbelief keeps you out of the Book of Life, it does not erase you from the book, that is, if you don’t apostasize. In order to be blotted out or erased from a book, you have to be in the book to begin with. That is just logic, common sense, and the standard meaning and use of the word “blot” or “erase.”

In order to bein the Book of Life, you have to be righteous before God. Therefore, those are not righteous before God can never be part of the Book and hence cannot be erased from something they’ve never been a part of. Erasure only applies to those who are righteous before God and hence form part of the Book.

I did not say that sinning against God blots you from the Book of God. That was said by God Himself in Exodus 32:32-33. Please read that verse carefully. Jesus ptomised that those WHO OVERCOME will never be erased from the Book of Life, thus implying that the justified that do not endure to the end will be erased from the Book of Life. That is why the Bible clearly states that those who endure to the end wil be saved.

God Bless,
Michael

Amen! In addition, the Bible says if we do not continue in kindness, we will be cut off.

Romans 11:22
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Notice two things… You cannot be cut off from something if you are not already a part of it. And this passage indicates the importance of “works” (kindness), which we do because of our faith and if we do not continue in works of kindness, we will be CUT OFF…

Even Paul himself understood he could lose his salvation:

1 Corinthians 9:27
27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be **disqualified **for the prize.

1 Corinthians 10:11-12
11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!

Gal 5:4
4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

How can you fall from grace unless you had it to begin with? In case it should come up, Catholics agree that we are not justified by “works of the law” just as this passage indicates… but we CAN fall from grace.

2 Tim 2:11-13
11Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
** If we disown him,
he will also disown us; **
13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

We have to endure? How can we disown what we don’t already have? He will disown us in return!

Heb 6:4-6
4It is **impossible **for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[a]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

It doesn’t get much clearer!

 

[mikeledes]

Part 2

All of the merits of the justified are the work of the Holy Spirit. So when God rewards the justified, He is crowning His own work. Hence the justified cannot glory in their works, boast before God, or demand a reward as payment.

Romans 11:18
“but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.”

John 15:4
“… As the branch cannot bear fruit unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.”

Any reward the Father has promised is a FREE ACT of a SOVEREIGN God, not the obligatory payment of a debt owed. It is within this context that Catholic teaching on merit must be understood. God has freely given eternal life in the present age to those who are “in Christ (All the Bible verses you keep referring to),” and has freely promised eternal life in the age to come to those “in Christ” who persevere in faith working through love to the end:

Revelation 21:7
“He who OVERCOMES will inherit these things and I will be his God and he will be my son.”

1 Timothy 6:18-19
“Instruct them to to good, to be rich in good works, to be generaous and ready to share, storing up for themselves a good foundation for the FUTURE, SO THAT they make TAKE HOLD of that which is LIFE INDEED.”

Luke 18:28
"… Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children (i.e. all works), for the sake of the Kingdom of God, who will not receive many much at this time and IN THE AGE TO COME, ETERNAL LIFE.

To be continued…

 

[apophasis]

Art:

Rom 4:3, “For what does the scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it wasa reckoned to him as righteousness”. It seems that this is the magic bullet to show Abraham was saved by faith alone. on the cotrary, look at any bible at that verse and it will show it is a quote from Gen 15:6. So if Sola Fide is true, Gen 15:6 is when Abraham first beleived. If you look at what happens before 15:6 you see that Abraham; According to Heb 11:8, Abraham already had faith

Why do you try to build an argument against Scripture? The Holy Spirit is the divine Author of the Scriptures. And we would not have insight as to WHEN God actually reckoned righteousness to Abraham (or even that He did, for that matter) except that He recorded this specific event in Gen. 15:6. As pointed out in many of my posts, nowhere else is it recorded. ONLY in Gen. 15:6 do we read that at that moment of faith God reckoned it (his faith in the Lord) as righteousness.

This is quite significant for us because the faith that Abraham exercised was in God’s PROMISE of a son to a now 99 year old man. A man beyond the natural ability of child birth (as was Sarah). And because he believed in the Lord to do the impossible, God credited it to him as righteousness. This “promised” son would become a TYPE of Christ in that his father Abraham would be requested by God to offer him up to sacrifice. And during that three days journey to Mt. Moriah Isaac was, in the mind of his father, dead (as Christ was three days in the tomb). But he received him back as a type of Christ (Heb. 11:19).

Although Abraham, at the last moment, was halted by God from actually offering up his son to sacrifice, God the Father did not reserve that mercy toward His own whom He delivered over for us all. And the same Holy Spirit who recorded the events concerning Abraham and Isaac, testifies of God the Father and His only begotten Son, this side of the cross, with this burning question attached:Rom 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?This includes forgiveness of ALL sins and an immediate position of righteousness ever before Him.

Abraham’s faith was credited as righteousness to him by God when his faith was in the context of a promised son. In like manner, all men today, this side of the cross, are reckoned righteous (justified) by God when they too, apart from works, simply believe the testimony of God concerning His promised Son whom He did not spare but delivered over to sacrifice for us all. As the Holy Spirit writes through the Apostle:Rom 3:21-24 “But now apart from the Law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;”

In Gen. 22 Abraham said an extraordinary thing to Isaac: “God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And Jesus, in parallel to this passage, said centuries later:John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw {it} and was glad."In Jesus God provided His once-for-all sacrificial “lamb.” And it’s faith in the context of this divine provision of redemption through the Person and finished work of His Son alone, that God, today (like Abraham of old), freely justifies all men who put their faith in Him, alone. ALL works excluded:Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,Like Isaac, God did the impossible by providing a Son through a virgin birth, delivered Him over to sacrifice on our behalf, and received Him back again through His bodily resurrection three days later. And like Abraham, all who believe in Him in this context, God declares (reckons) righteous - apart from works.

It’s ALL ABOUT belief in the Son, and the Son alone, according to God’s Word. We celebrate the promised Son’s birth this time of year, but keep in mind, God did not spare Him like He did Abraham’s. And why He did not spare Him is what true faith is all about. And the fact that He did not spare Him is the ground for divine justification when we put our faith in Him. Divine justification is a GIFT and, like batteries, works are NOT included.

 

[Pax]

A couple of things that always seem to get overlooked in the discussion of salvation are God’s purpose and the kingship of Jesus.

In Eph 6:12 scripture tells us that we are in a spiritual battle “against powers and principalities, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.” Our justification does not eliminate this battle. Instead, we become united with the King of kings who has come to destroy sin and death. By grace we will conquer Satan by the blood of the Lamb[Rev 12:11] and through obedience to our King. [see Rev 2:7, 2:11, 2:17, 2:26, 3:5, 3:12, 3:21, & 21:7]

Paul says the same kind of thing in Romans 16:19-20 by stating: “For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I would have you wise as to what is good and guileless as to what is evil; then the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.”

God’s purpose in sending Jesus is for the purpose of providing atonement and expiation for our sins, and for our redemption. This includes destroying sin and death. Paul says in Romans 8:29 that God’s purpose for us is “to be conformed to the image of his Son…” We are conformed to the image of Jesus by God’s grace. We are washed, sanctified, and justified[1 Cor 6:11]. This puts us in a relationship with our savior who is our Lord and King.

In Rom 15:12, Paul quotes Isaiah who says, “The root of Jesse shall come, he who rises to** rule **the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles hope.” The kingship of Jesus places us in a position of obedience and worship to him. The kingship of Jesus pits us against the ruler of this world’s present darkness. 2 Cor 5:14-17 says that “…the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died. And he died for all, **that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him **who for their sake died and was raised……Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.” Jesus’s kingship and our being a new creation in Christ enable us by grace to overcome Satan and sin.

God’s purpose is stated elegantly in Eph 1:3-11 where it says:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace which he lavished upon us. For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will…”

God’s purpose and will is not to merely give us a forensic declaration of righteoness. It is God’s will to actually regenerate us and makes us truly righteous through his grace which “conforms us to the image of his son.” God wants us to be **holy and blameless **before Him. We must be holy and blameless before our Lord and King for nothing unclean will enter heaven. We are members of the household and kingdom. As such we must by grace overcome the evil one. We must persevere and conquer.

Salvation by faith alone ignores the importance of both Christ’s kingship and God’s purposes. A forensic declaration of righteousness ignores Christ’s kingship, the regeneration of man, and the struggle against Satan. The doctrine of salvation by faith alone does not conform to scripture. Scripture directly denies the teaching in James 2:24 and the doctrine repeatedly fails to conform to the many important elements associated with salvation. In this example it fails to conform to Christ’s kingship and God’s purposeful intentions for the elect.

 

[Pax]

Why do you try to build an argument against Scripture? The Holy Spirit is the divine Author of the Scriptures. And we would not have insight as to WHEN God actually reckoned righteousness to Abraham (or even that He did, for that matter) except that He recorded this specific event in Gen. 15:6. As pointed out in many of my posts, nowhere else is it recorded. ONLY in Gen. 15:6 do we read that at that moment of faith God reckoned it (his faith in the Lord) as righteousness.

This is quite significant for us because the faith that Abraham exercised was in God’s PROMISE of a son to a now 99 year old man. A man beyond the natural ability of child birth (as was Sarah). And because he believed in the Lord to do the impossible, God credited it to him as righteousness. This “promised” son would become a TYPE of Christ in that his father Abraham would be requested by God to offer him up to sacrifice. And during that three days journey to Mt. Moriah Isaac was, in the mind of his father, dead (as Christ was three days in the tomb). But he received him back as a type of Christ (Heb. 11:19).

Although Abraham, at the last moment, was halted by God from actually offering up his son to sacrifice, God the Father did not reserve that mercy toward His own whom He delivered over for us all. And the same Holy Spirit who recorded the events concerning Abraham and Isaac, testifies of God the Father and His only begotten Son, this side of the cross, with this burning question attached:Rom 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?This includes forgiveness of ALL sins and an immediate position of righteousness ever before Him.

Abraham’s faith was credited as righteousness to him by God when his faith was in the context of a promised son. In like manner, all men today, this side of the cross, are reckoned righteous (justified) by God when they too, apart from works, simply believe the testimony of God concerning His promised Son whom He did not spare but delivered over to sacrifice for us all. As the Holy Spirit writes through the Apostle:Rom 3:21-24 “But now apart from the Law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;”

In Gen. 22 Abraham said an extraordinary thing to Isaac: “God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And Jesus, in parallel to this passage, said centuries later:John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw {it} and was glad."In Jesus God provided His once-for-all sacrificial “lamb.” And it’s faith in the context of this divine provision of redemption through the Person and finished work of His Son alone, that God, today (like Abraham of old), freely justifies all men who put their faith in Him, alone. ALL works excluded:Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,Like Isaac, God did the impossible by providing a Son through a virgin birth, delivered Him over to sacrifice on our behalf, and received Him back again through His bodily resurrection three days later. And like Abraham, all who believe in Him in this context, God declares (reckons) righteous - apart from works.

It’s ALL ABOUT belief in the Son, and the Son alone, according to God’s Word. We celebrate the promised Son’s birth this time of year, but keep in mind, God did not spare Him like He did Abraham’s. And why He did not spare Him is what true faith is all about. And the fact that He did not spare Him is the ground for divine justification when we put our faith in Him. Divine justification is a GIFT and, like batteries, works are NOT included.

You are ignoring the obvious. Does anyone really believe that if Abraham had not followed through by having marital relations with Sarah that the promise would have been kept, and that his faith would have been credited to him as righteousness? No way! Abraham had an active faith and lived by it. Abraham was obedient to God’s promise and begat Isaac. Abraham’s faith was as James would say, “completed by works.” If Abraham had not had relations with Sarah he would not have gone down in biblical history as having believed God and he would not have had descendents as numerous as the stars.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

=They “perfect” FAITH, i.e., cause maturity of faith, as James states in 2:22, =

James 2:24 states cleary that we are justified by works and not by faith-alone. Now you may say that the “faith” that James is speaking of is a “dead” faith or a “mere intellectual” faith, rather than what Evangelicals call “saving faith”. That is absurd and Biblically dishonest. Catholics do not claim that one must do meritorious works in order to come to God and be justified. In fact, Catholic theology claims it is completely impossible to do anything meritorious whatever prior to being justified. These considerations dramatically illustrate that the “false faith”/“true faith” interpretation is not something being derived from the text but something being imposed on it. The whole concept of false faith is unbiblical. There are certainly different kinds of faith in Scripture, but none of them are “false” (whatever that might mean), they are simply different kinds. We must listen to the text if we wish to kind out which kind is being discussed here. But it mistakenly locates the source of the deadness in the faith itself. That is not what James says. He says faith (at least the kind discussed in this passage) is dead if it does not have works. He does not say that dead faith is without works. That is where Evangelicals mess up!

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Amen! In addition, the Bible says if we do not continue in kindness, we will be cut off.

Romans 11:22
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Notice two things… You cannot be cut off from something if you are not already a part of it. And this passage indicates the importance of “works” (kindness), which we do because of our faith and if we do not continue in works of kindness, we will be CUT OFF…

Even Paul himself understood he could lose his salvation:

1 Corinthians 9:27
27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be **disqualified **for the prize.

1 Corinthians 10:11-12
11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!

Gal 5:4
4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

How can you fall from grace unless you had it to begin with? In case it should come up, Catholics agree that we are not justified by “works of the law” just as this passage indicates… but we CAN fall from grace.

2 Tim 2:11-13
11Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
** If we disown him,
he will also disown us; **
13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

We have to endure? How can we disown what we don’t already have? He will disown us in return!

Heb 6:4-6
4It is **impossible **for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[a]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

It doesn’t get much clearer!

You’re in RCIA too!


Awesome, looks like we both are learning alot. God Bless you

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Combine the two and you end up with the clear striaghtforward meaning of the passage both you and they are desperately trying to evade, namely, the Catholic one.

God Bless,
Michael

For years I tried everything to run away from the Catholic faith. I knew that it was firmly Biblical, but I didn’t want it to be Biblical even though it clearly was.

I thank God that he opened my eyes!!!

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

ONLY in Gen. 15:6 do we read that at that moment of faith God reckoned it (his faith in the Lord) as righteousness.

Yet if you re-read Genesis you’ll see that Abraham was justified before and after Genesis 15:6.

Contrary to the claims of what you’re trying to teach, justification, like the other aspects of salvation, has past, present, and future dimensions. This is shown by a variety of Bible passages, but especially by the Biblical discussion of the justification of Abraham. Contemporary Evangelical preaching focuses mainly on the past dimension of justification. This aspect of justification is indicated in verses such as Rom 5:1 (“having been justified”), 5:9 (“having now been justified”), and 1Co 6:11 (“you were justified”). These passages show that justification is clearly a past event in the life of the believer. But there it also has present and future dimensions. For example, the future dimensions are found these verses:

“For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.” (Rom 2:13)

“For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.” (Rom 3:20)

If you look you will find the different temporal dimensions to justification illustrated very well in the life of Abraham. To begin with, Gen 15:6 clearly teaches us that Abraham was justified at the time he believed the promise concerning the number of his descendants. Paul confirms this when he quotes Genesis 15:6 to show that Abraham was justified at that time:

“For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the scripture say? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness’” (Romans 4:2-3)

But if justification were a once-for-all event, rather than a process, that means Abraham could not receive justification either before or after Genesis 15:6. However, Scripture indicates that he did both. First, the book of Hebrews tells us that:

“By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go.” (Heb 11:8)

Apophasis you will passionately agree that the subject of Hebrews 11 is saving faith – the kind that pleases God and wins his approval (Heb. 11:2, 6) – so you know that Abraham had saving faith according to Hebrews 11. But *when *did he have this faith? The passage tells us: Abraham had it "when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive . . . " The problem for the once-for-all view of justification is that is that the call of Abraham to leave Haran is recorded in Genesis 12:1-4–three chapters before he is justified in 15:6. We therefore know that Abraham was justified well before (in fact, years before) he was justified in Gen. 15:6. But if Abraham had saving faith back in Genesis 12, then he was justified back in Genesis 12. **Yet Paul clearly tells us that he was also justified in Genesis 15. **So justification must be more than just a once-for-all event. Abraham also received justification afterward Gen 15:6, for the book of James tells us:

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.” (James 2:21-23)

Open your eyes Brother Apophasis!

 

[apophasis]

A couple of things that always seem to get overlooked in the discussion of salvation are God’s purpose and the kingship of Jesus.

In Eph 6:12 scripture tells us that we are in a spiritual battle “against powers and principalities, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.” Our justification does not eliminate this battle. Instead, we become united with the King of kings who has come to destroy sin and death. By grace we will conquer Satan by the blood of the Lamb[Rev 12:11] and through obedience to our King. [see Rev 2:7, 2:11, 2:17, 2:26, 3:5, 3:12, 3:21, & 21:7]

Paul says the same kind of thing in Romans 16:19-20 by stating: “For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I would have you wise as to what is good and guileless as to what is evil; then the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.”

God’s purpose in sending Jesus is for the purpose of providing atonement and expiation for our sins, and for our redemption. This includes destroying sin and death. Paul says in Romans 8:29 that God’s purpose for us is “to be conformed to the image of his Son…” We are conformed to the image of Jesus by God’s grace. We are washed, sanctified, and justified[1 Cor 6:11]. This puts us in a relationship with our savior who is our Lord and King.

In Rom 15:12, Paul quotes Isaiah who says, “The root of Jesse shall come, he who rises to** rule **the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles hope.” The kingship of Jesus places us in a position of obedience and worship to him. The kingship of Jesus pits us against the ruler of this world’s present darkness. 2 Cor 5:14-17 says that “…the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died. And he died for all, **that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him **who for their sake died and was raised……Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.” Jesus’s kingship and our being a new creation in Christ enable us by grace to overcome Satan and sin.

God’s purpose is stated elegantly in Eph 1:3-11 where it says:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace which he lavished upon us. For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will…”

God’s purpose and will is not to merely give us a forensic declaration of righteoness. It is God’s will to actually regenerate us and makes us truly righteous through his grace which “conforms us to the image of his son.” God wants us to be **holy and blameless **before Him. We must be holy and blameless before our Lord and King for nothing unclean will enter heaven. We are members of the household and kingdom. As such we must by grace overcome the evil one. We must persevere and conquer.

Salvation by faith alone ignores the importance of both Christ’s kingship and God’s purposes. A forensic declaration of righteousness ignores Christ’s kingship, the regeneration of man, and the struggle against Satan. The doctrine of salvation by faith alone does not conform to scripture. Scripture directly denies the teaching in James 2:24 and the doctrine repeatedly fails to conform to the many important elements associated with salvation. In this example it fails to conform to Christ’s kingship and God’s purposeful intentions for the elect.

And you still continue to “work” to ignore God’s Word. None of the above justify us before God.For what does the Scripture say? “And Abraham BELIEVED GOD, and IT (his faith/belief) was reckoned to him as righteousness” (Rom. 4:3).

 

[apophasis]

You are ignoring the obvious. Does anyone really believe that if Abraham had not followed through by having marital relations with Sarah that the promise would have been kept, and that his faith would have been credited to him as righteousness? No way! Abraham had an active faith and lived by it. Abraham was obedient to God’s promise and begat Isaac. Abraham’s faith was as James would say, “completed by works.” If Abraham had not had relations with Sarah he would not have gone down in biblical history as having believed God and he would not have had descendents as numerous as the stars.

"For what does the Scripture say? “And Abraham BELIEVED God, and IT (his faith, not his relations with Sarah) was reckoned to Him as righteousness.”

 

[apophasis]

Apophasis you will passionately agree that the subject of Hebrews 11 is saving faith – the kind that pleases God and wins his approval (Heb. 11:2, 6) – so you know that Abraham had saving faith according to Hebrews 11. But *when *did he have this faith? The passage tells us: Abraham had it "when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive . . . " The problem for the once-for-all view of justification is that is that the call of Abraham to leave Haran is recorded in Genesis 12:1-4–three chapters before he is justified in 15:6. We therefore know that Abraham was justified well before (in fact, years before) he was justified in Gen. 15:6.

We know no such thing. The Holy Spirit knew WHEN God justified him and He recorded it in Gen. 15:6. Nowhere is it recorded prior to that single verse in Gen. 15, or after. Which is the basis of Paul’s whole argument for justification through FAITH ALONE in Romans chapter four.

But if Abraham had saving faith back in Genesis 12, then he was justified back in Genesis 12.

You’re making up your own theology to fit the teachings of your religion. You refuse to believe the Word of God on this.

**Yet Paul clearly tells us that he was also justified in Genesis 15. **

That’s right. But Paul refers to no other. Why? He can’t. Nor will he go beyond what is written. He must agree with the teachings of the Holy Spirit. You, on the other hand, go beyond Scripture and refuse to believe what the Holy Spirit recorded in Gen. 15:6 and Rom. 4:3.

So justification must be more than just a once-for-all event.

YOUR conclusion, not Paul’s, based on what is clearly revealed in Scripture.

Open your eyes Brother Apophasis!

They’re wide open, my friend, and I can actually read.

 

[Mickey]

Nowhere is it recorded prior to that single verse in Gen. 15, or after. Which is the basis of Paul’s whole argument for justification through FAITH ALONE

You’re making up your own theology to fit the teachings of your religion.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

You’re making up your own theology to fit the teachings of your religion.

My brother, the fact that you attack me personally, instead of addressing the point I made speaks volumes…

 

[mikeledes]

Part 3 (Continuation of previous posts).

Apophasis, you seem to make an issue of so called “cooperative” salvation. Do you believe that a person moved by God choses Christ? If there is choice involved, then there is cooperation, at least the moment we are justified.

Like I said earlier, our merits do not have their origin in the human will for they are the manifestation of the the work of God through the Holy Spirit. The human will is simply the agency, the means, by which the work of God in our hearsts is made manifest in our daily living. However, the relationship between a regenerated heart and righteous acts is NOT one of AUTOMATIC cause and effect. If it were, then every justified person would live an absolutely sinless life. The reality of sin in the life of the justified is clear evidence that a truly justified regenerated person can resist the operation of the Holy Spirit in their lives. This is what Saint Puaul refers to as “quenching the Spirit,” or “grieving the Spirit” (1 Thessalonians 5:19, Ephesians 4:30).

To be continued…

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

They’re wide open, my friend, and I can actually read.

Brother will you stop with these ad hominen attacks.

Do you not remember the words of Pope St. Peter?

“but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence;” (1 Peter 3:15)

 

[mikeledes]

Part 4

The Holy Spirit empowers and animates us to practice righteousness (Galatians 5:22-23, Ezekiel 36:26). By persevering in doing good, not only do we fulfill the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2, James 2:8), but we are surrendering our wills to the Holy Spirit and hence avoid falling into sin and ensure our salvation.

Galatians 5:16
“But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.”

2 Peter 1:10-11
"Therefore, brethren, be diligent to **make ** certain about His calling and chosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stunble; **FOR IN THIS WAY THE ENTRANCE INTO THE ETERNAL KINGDOM of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you. **

Surrendering our wills to the Holy Spirit and thus allowing God to manifest His work through our good works (keeping the commandments, works of charity) will ensure entrance into the eternal kingdom of Jesus Christ (the entrance into eternal life of Matthew 25:34 & 46) and hence our final salvation. That is why Paul tells Timothy:

1 Timothy 4:16
“Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, FOR AS YOU DO THIS you ENSURE SALVATION both for yourself and for those who hear you.”

To be continued…

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

We know no such thing. The Holy Spirit knew WHEN God justified him and He recorded it in Gen. 15:6. Nowhere is it recorded prior to that single verse in Gen. 15, or after.

*“Now the LORD said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse; and by you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves.” So Abram went, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.” * (Genesis 12:1-4)

Now Look at Hebrews----

*“By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to set out for a place that he was to receive as an inheritance, not knowing where he was going.” *(Hebrews 11:8)

Brother Apophasis, the call of our father Abraham to leave Haran is recorded in Genesis 12:1-4 three chapters before he is justified in 15:6.

Granted it doesn’t explicitly state that he was justified, but notice that Hebrews 11:8 proceeds what is said next:

"By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was ready to offer up his only son, of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your descendants be named.” (Hebrews 11:17-18)

Clearly this corrseponds to Romans 4:3 and Genesis 15:6, No??

Furthermore, our father Abraham was justified again. Take a look a Genesis 22:9-18—

*"When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar, upon the wood. Then Abraham put forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven, and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.”
He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.”
And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son.
So Abraham called the name of that place The LORD will provide; as it is said to this day, “On the mount of the LORD it shall be provided.”
And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven,
and said, “By myself I have sworn, says the LORD, because you have done this, and have not withheld your son, your only son, ** I will indeed bless you, and I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore. And your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies, and by your descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because you have obeyed my voice.” ***(Genesis 22:9-18)

St. James explains what happened to Abraham spiritually in James 2:21-23—

*"Was not Abraham our father **justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? **
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God." *(James 2:21-23)

Hence, we see that our father Abraham was **justified **on at least three different occasions: he was justified in Genesis 12, when he first left Haran and went to the promised land; he was justified in Genesis 15, when he believed the promise concerning his descendants; and he was justified in Genesis 22, when he offered his Issac on the altar.

The fact that you are unwilling to accept this is not because it is not Biblical, but rather because you **choose **not to accept it.

I will pray for you my brother!