HELP! Does Romans 4 preach sola fide?

[mikeledes]

Part 5

What will happen to those who deliberately resist the Holy Spirit’s operation in their lives (i.e. failing to persvere in keeping the commandments and bearing fruit in good works)?
They will be cut off from the Vine that is Christ (the source of eternal life), blotted out from the Book of Life, and cast into the eternal fire (John 15). Why? By deliberately failing to persevere in conforming their lives to the free gift of justification, they have sinned against God and have rejected His gift. So they are damned not because they did not work hard enough, but because they resisted and rejected the work of God.

Hebrews 10:26-29

"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, BUT A TERRIFYING EXPECTATION OF JUDGEMENT and the FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES… How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded unclean the blood of the covenant BY WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Only those made righteous by God can be sanctified by the blood of Christ. Therefore, this verse clearly refers to those who have been genuinely justified but have not endured to the end. Their end is the eternal fire.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Yet Paul clearly teaches that God reckons righteous the UNGODLY, not the godly - and that through faith APART FROM WORKS. And what does Paul say the ground for this divine reckoning is? The subsequent righteous works of the godly, which you claim are the works of God? Does Paul teach that any works performed by men, even the justified, is the ground for divine justification? No, no, no-no-no:

This, Apophasis, clearly demonstrates that you are not interested in understanding what we are saying. How on earth can a person be godly without having been washed by the blood of Christ first? Paul in Romans 4 is talking about how the ungodly become godly. How are those under the bondage of sin transferred to the freedom enjoyed by the children of God in Christ? It is a free gift of God won for us by Christ’s work on the cross, not the product of any work. Our finite works could never pay for the eternal debt of sin and thus make us righteous before God. For those in the flesh can never please God. Once we have been freely transferred from being ungodly to being godly, we are set free from sins, but we are not set free from subsequent obligations that will affect our salvation. We are given the Holy Spirit to lead us into all paths of righteousness, but we can willfully resist His operation in our lives. If we were freed from any obligations **subsequent to justification **that would affect our salvation, then we would not see verses like Hebrews 10:25-26, John 15, and Exodus 32:32-33, which clearly discuss the possibilty of being erased from the Book of Life. That is why the Bible clearly states that we must endure until the end to be saved, a verse you have not addressed.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

So you’re saying works of the Law don’t count, but Christian works of charity count toward one’s reckoned justification? In other words, there were no “works of charity” in the Law? Read what Christ said regarding the Law:Matt 22:35-40 "One of them, a lawyer, asked Him {a question,} testing Him, “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And He said to him, " ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."Yet you agree that “works of the Law” cannot save or justify a man. How are “works of Christian charity” any different or superior to the overall intent of the Law???

Then please respond to my post on:

Luke 10:25-28

"And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it? So he answered and said, ‘You shall love your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind,’ and your neighbor as yorself. And He said to him, "YOU HAVE ANSWERED RIGHTLY; DO THIS AND YOU SHALL LIVE

Not only does Jesus say that the man answered rightly, but he also said “DO THIS and you will live.” Like I’ve said time and time again, following the Mosaic law (moral and ritual) could not give life or righteousness. If it could, then we would not need Jesus. So why did Jesus emphasize keeping the commandments in relation to inheriting eternal life. It’s not because he didn’t preach about faith in Him yet because we have plenty of examples where he did do that. So is Jesus lying to this man by saying he would “live” if he followed the commandments, the same thing He told the rich young man?

Not if we read it within the context of Jesus’s entire preaching ministry and the teaching of the Apostles. While keeping the commandments could not make you righteous before God - that could only be done by grace through faith in Christ alone - it does play a role in keeping you righteous, keeping you in Christ (John 15:10, 1 John 3:24, 1 Corinthians 7:19). So, in that sense, if you follow the commandments you will “live” or “enter into life.”

The works of the law (Mosaic law) could not give life. It only served to point out sin, but did not provide the means to carry out its requirements. Under the New Covenant, we are able to fulfill the moral law of God (the Law of Christ) because we have been liberated from bondage to sin and have received the Holy Spirit through the work of Christ on the Cross when we were justified. Moreover, the dynamo behind fulfilling the Law of Christ is love, a fruit of the Holy Spirit. This is the difference between the dead letter of the Law (Mosaic law) and the law of the Spirit of life.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mom2three]

You’re in RCIA too!


Awesome, looks like we both are learning alot. God Bless you

Yes, I am! May God also bless you! Isn’t it a wonderful journey? It’s like all the puzzle pieces of my faith are finally fitting like they were meant to! Scripture makes much more sense to me now and I learn more every day!

 

[Pax]

And you still continue to “work” to ignore God’s Word. None of the above justify us before God.For what does the Scripture say? “And Abraham BELIEVED GOD, and IT (his faith/belief) was reckoned to him as righteousness” (Rom. 4:3).

Your baseless insult does not provide a refutation. I do not ignore God’s word but instead provide passages to you from God’s word that you choose to ignore. It is the Father who works in me by way of grace. I claim nothing as coming from myself.

I will give you a few more verses to consider in terms of what Paul is talking about when he refers to works that do not justify.

It has been pointed out to you by others that Paul speaks of the “works of the Law” as having nothing to do with justification. Everybody and his brother knows that Paul’s greatest example in this regard is the Jewish requirement of circumcision. Paul uses the example of circumcision over and over and even brings it up in reference to Abraham’s justification. That having been said, we can now look at some important statements made by Paul concerning what really matters vis-a-vis circumcision which is his favorite example of “works of law that do not justify.”

1 Cor 7:19
For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision,** but keeping the commandments of God.**

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

Galatians 6:15
For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

These three verses speak directly to what we have been hammering on in Eph 2:10

Phillipians 3:3
For we are the true circumcision, who worship God in spirit, and glory in Christ Jesus, and put no confidence in the flesh.

This verse speaks clearly to not putting faith in our own works. We do not put our confidence in the flesh which is a reference to human effort. Our confidence and trust are in Jesus Christ and the grace given through the Spirit. God’s grace works in us both to will and to work for his good pleasure.[Phill 2:13]

Titus 1:10-16
For there are many insubordinate men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially the circumcision party;… their very minds and consciences are corrupted. They profess to know God, but they deny him by their deeds; they are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good deed.

Check this out. Paul speaks of those that deny God by their deeds even though they profess to believe. Isn’t that interesting. Clearly these folks, including the circumcision party, are not among the saved. And why are they among the unsaved? Is it because they lack faith? No, they actually profess belief, but their very minds and consciences are corrupt as are their deeds. They are not a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand. They are not living in the Spirit. They are not slaves to Christ Jesus. They have not put off their old selves and put on Christ.

I ask you Apophasis…why do you ignore all of these things which are in the same bible and are written by the same person, Paul, who you so frequently quote?

 

[Pax]

"For what does the Scripture say? “And Abraham BELIEVED God, and IT (his faith, not his relations with Sarah) was reckoned to Him as righteousness.”

A mere quote on your part is not a refutation to the obvious problem that confronts you. Answer my point by way of refutation or simply concede the issue.

I will reiterate all of this for you and again present it as a challenge.

Could Abraham have begat Isaac if he had not had marital relations with Sarah after God promised that he would have a son even though he was about 100 years old?

Could Abraham have had descendents as numerous as the stars had he not followed through in his faith and God’s promise by having marital relations with Sarah?

If Abraham had not had relations with Sarah would the promise of descendents have been fulfilled?

If the promise was not fulfilled by Abraham believing and then having marital relations with Sarah then what becomes of the promise of descendents?

If the promise was not fulfilled because Abraham did not have marital relationships then what becomes of Abraham’s faith?

If Abraham didn’t have marital relations with Sarah would this mean that he really didn’t have faith or that he was disobedient or possibly both?

If Abraham did not have marital relations with Sarah would scripture still refer to him as “the father of us all?”[Rom 4:16]

If Abraham did not follow through on his faith in the promise made by God by having marital relations with Sarah would it still be said that his faith was reckoned to him as righteousness?

Think about this and then give honest and thoughtful answers to the questions before you.

 

[Nicene]

Does Romans 4 teach Faith alone? Heck no, read Romans 6 and Galatians 5.

The flag standard of faith alone is always we are all sinners (yep we are, but not totally depraved) however the caveat to that is the ministry of reconciliation (read Paul, John etc.) No repentance.

On the flip side the “no works are necessary” crowd do not stand against Galatians 5:6, Ephesians 2:10 (which they always seem to leave out) but most in particular Matthew 7 and 25.

It takes obstinate refusal to believe the truth to deny those scriptures or make them say something different than they do. Possibly it is because God is sending “strong delusion” (2 Thess 2:11-12) or possibly because Tit 1:15.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

It’s like all the puzzle pieces of my faith are finally fitting like they were meant to! Scripture makes much more sense to me now and I learn more every day!

Wow, that’s exactly how I feel!

Isn’t it awesome!

Praise be to the Lord Jesus

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

James Akin wrote an awesome book concerning the subject of Faith Alone. It’s called “The Salvation Controversy”. Anyone who wants to know what the Bible teaches about salvation should read this book!!!

Brother Apophasis, if you’re willing to open your mind a little, you really should read this book. It has soooooo many Bible references in it!!!

Peace brother Apophasis and God Bless

 

[santaro75]

The key to understanding St. Paul’s opposition of “faith” and “works of the Law” is to understand what are “works of the Law” and why he is saying it. The “works of the Law” he is speaking of are the works of the Mosaic Law. This can be seen from the context, in which he is specifically speaking of things like circumcision. In opposing “faith” and “works of the Law” as means of justification, he is essentially saying that Christians do not need to submit to the Mosaic Law (i.e., become Jews) to be saved. And he is saying that because there was much controversy in the 1st century Church about that issue (cf. Acts 15). Christians are justified by faith, and Paul backs that up by referring to Abraham.

This is further corroborated within the verse you quoted by noting that the “boasting” that is mentioned is not boasting before God of our good works in order to be justified (i.e., verse 2 “Not before God”). The boasting in view is the boasting that the Jewish Christians were doing towards the Gentile Christians. “See, I’m a Christian (or a better Christian) because I am circumcised and am under the Mosaic Law.” But Paul says, no!, Christians are Christians by faith. Consequently, Jewish Christians have nothing to boast about before Gentile Chtistians. They are equal members of the body!

Now, as people have mentioned, James mentions that we are not justified by “faith alone”. We are justified by works also. But the context of James is NOT “works of the Law”, but good deeds (i.e., helping the poor etc.). So there is no contradiction between James and Paul. Paul is saying we don’t need the Mosaic Law to be justified. James is saying that good works done in a state of grace can justify.

this is EXCELLENT!!!

 

[santaro75]

Works make your faith useful and redemptive. For the following comparison

People = cars
Gasoline=Saving grace through faith
Driving = our works from our saving grace through faith.

A Car is not useful without Gasoline. A cars saving grace is gasoline. The owner of the car will give the car gasoline at a cost to himself but at no cost to the car. But if that Car does not drive even when given gasoline, it is useless and the car will be thrown away (after siphoning out the useful gas and putting it in a car that drives).

In that way our faith alone is useless and not redemptive.

:twocents: :twocents: :twocents: :twocents: :twocents:

ps. our filling station is the church. with the three melecules of gas being Eucharist, Scripture, Prayer

 

[apophasis]

“Now the LORD said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse; and by you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves.” So Abram went, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.” (Genesis 12:1-4)

Now Look at Hebrews----

“By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to set out for a place that he was to receive as an inheritance, not knowing where he was going.” (Hebrews 11:8)

Brother Apophasis, the call of our father Abraham to leave Haran is recorded in Genesis 12:1-4 three chapters before he is justified in 15:6.

OK, but NOTHING is said about justification from Gen. 12 to 15:6. NOTHING!!!

Granted it doesn’t explicitly state that he was justified,

"Explicitly??? Not even implicitly.

but notice that Hebrews 11:8 proceeds what is said next: "By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was ready to offer up his only son, of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your descendants be named.” (Hebrews 11:17-18) Clearly this corrseponds to Romans 4:3 and Genesis 15:6, No??

NO. Neither corresponds to Rom. 4:3 by the simple FACT that Paul in Rom. 3:4 QUOTES Gen. 15:6. None of this adds to your case but, actually, fuels against it. You’re digging a deeper hole for yourself.

Furthermore, our father Abraham was justified again. Take a look a Genesis 22:9-18—

Please give me the verse in Gen. 22 where it states that Abraham was “again” reckoned righteous by God. Granted, God reiterates His covenant with Abraham, but there is abolutely no mention or hint of God justifying Him “again.”

Fact: There is no mention of God justifying Abraham BEFORE Gen. 15:6, and there is no mention of God justifying Abraham AFTER Gen. 15:6.

By saying Abraham was justified “again” at the time of the attempted sacrifice of Isaac, you’re arguing against Paul and the Holy Spirit, not me. For Paul’s whole, inspired, case for being justified by God through faith alone in Romans four is based on the FACT that Abrham was justified BEFORE he was circumcised and NOT AFTER. In Romans four Paul turns the Jews boast in circumcision upside down. It is not the Gentile who must come to the Jew’s circumcision for salvation/justification (which amounts to justification by works); it is the Jew who must come to a Gentile faith, such faith as Abraham had before he was circumcised.

However, if Abraham was justified “again” at Mt. Moriah (as your teaching authority instructs you - contrary to Scripture), then Paul (and the Holy Spirit) were in error and even Paul’s logic in Romans four is completely bogus. For one could then rightly argue that Abraham was indeed justified AFTER he was circumcised and so, contrary to Paul’s argument, justification can be achieved through Law keeping. Furthermore, even Paul’s arguments refuting the Judaizers in Galatia were fraudulent, and all Gentiles who have not been officially circumcised by a kosher-keeping, believing Rabbi have perished.

But praise God Paul, through the Holy Spirit, knew what he was talking about. You, however, do not and either utterly fail to understand Paul or simply refuse to accept his teaching:Rom. 3:21-24 "But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those WHO BELIEVE; for there is no distinction (i.e., between Jew and Gentile); for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Rom 3:27-30 "Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. Or is God {the God} of Jews only? Is He not {the God} of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.The beauty of having the faith written and preserved in the Scriptures is no matter what men teach to the contrary, they can’t change what is written. As much as you may loathe justification through FAITH alone, you can’t change it. You may change “faiths,” you may change religions, you may change churches, but you cannot change what is written. For God is “watching over His Word to perform it” (Jer. 1:12).

 

[apophasis]

This, Apophasis, clearly demonstrates that you are not interested in understanding what we are saying.

The question of this thread is on what Paul is saying in Roman four, not you.

How on earth can a person be godly without having been washed by the blood of Christ first? Paul in Romans 4 is talking about how the ungodly become godly.

Paul in Romans four is telling us how God Himself justifies the “ungodly” through faith alone, based solely on the “the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 3:24). You continue to confound justification with experiential sanctification.

If we were freed from any obligations **subsequent to justification **that would affect our salvation, then we would not see verses like Hebrews 10:25-26, John 15, and Exodus 32:32-33, which clearly discuss the possibilty of being erased from the Book of Life. That is why the Bible clearly states that we must endure until the end to be saved, a verse you have not addressed.

Your basic problem, Michael (and Catholicism’s teaching authority), is you fail to understand that although all Scriptures are written FOR you, not all are written ABOUT you. Until you apply this truth to your study of the Scriptures you will not escape the contradictions you continually present with your long lists of out of context passages.

 

[Mickey]

.Your basic problem, Michael (and Catholicism’s teaching authority), is you fail to understand that although all Scriptures are written FOR you, not all are written ABOUT you.

How presumptuous–such a lack of charity! This smells like rotten fruit!

 

[Sean_Boyle]

The question of this thread is on what Paul is saying in Roman four, not you.Paul in Romans four is telling us how God Himself justifies us by grace through faith (the “alone” part would make the statement unscriptural) You continue to confound justification with experiential sanctification.Your basic problem,(and APOPHASIS’ teaching authority), is you fail to understand that although all Scriptures are written FOR you, not all are written ABOUT you. Until you apply Truth to your study of the Scriptures you will not escape the contradictions you continually present with your long lists of out of context passages.

Back at ya.

I’m starting to think that you believe that your Jesus is better than our Jesus.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

NO. Neither corresponds to Rom. 4:3 by the simple FACT that Paul in Rom. 3:4 QUOTES Gen. 15:6. None of this adds to your case but, actually, fuels against it. You’re digging a deeper hole for yourself.

Actually it does correspond to Romans 4:3. Now, whether or not you want it to is entirely another matter. Take a look at Genesis 12:1-4, our father Abram is justified here, as God promises to make his name great and bless the families of the earth through his seed. Our father Abram is justified by his faith in God. Heb. 11:8-10 confirms that our father Abraham’s justification occurred here, **before Gen. 15:6 (later) by referring to Gen. 12, not Gen. 15. Our father Abraham’s justification increased over time because justification is not a one-time event, but an ongoing process of growing in holiness. **

My brother I’ve been in the same position you’re in now. At this point it is not a matter of whether it is Biblical or not. It is a matter whether you want it to be Biblical. I have been there my brother, don’t worry I’ll pray for you.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Please give me the verse in Gen. 22 where it states that Abraham was “again” reckoned righteous by God. Granted, God reiterates His covenant with Abraham, but there is abolutely no mention or hint of God justifying Him “again.”

There is no verse in Gen. 22 that explicitly states that Our father Abraham was “again” reckoned righteousness. BUT I am not someone who bases my Beliefs in one single Bible verse, and I know that you don’t either.

I base my beliefs on how the Bible interprets itself. Thus, while Gen. 22 doesn’t explicitly say that our father Abraham was justified, the Epistle of St. James does say that:

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God." (James 2:21-23)

Surely you can see what St. James is saying.

Unless of course you base your theology on a few paltry verses from Romans and Genesis, but surely you don’t do that my brother.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

By saying Abraham was justified “again” at the time of the attempted sacrifice of Isaac, you’re arguing against Paul and the Holy Spirit, not me.

With all due respect that is your opinion my brother.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

For Paul’s whole, inspired, case for being justified by God through faith alone in Romans four is based on the FACT that Abrham was justified BEFORE he was circumcised and NOT AFTER. In Romans four Paul turns the Jews boast in circumcision upside down. It is not the Gentile who must come to the Jew’s circumcision for salvation/justification (which amounts to justification by works);.

Yes but the context of both Romans and Galatians show that he is talking about the works of Torah not good works in general. If he was talking about good works in this instance his statement in Romans 2:7-8 would make no sense.

Romans 4 corresponds interestingly to Galatians 2:16----

“yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified."

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

You, however, do not and either utterly fail to understand Paul or simply refuse to accept his teaching.

I understand what St. Paul is teaching quite well I assure you my dear brother.

What I **refuse **to except is an un-Biblical, un-historical, and un-Apostolic teaching that was not taught by anyone in the Body of Christ until Martin Luther.

May God Bless you richly my brother in Christ!!!