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Antonius_Lupus
Guest
Contrary to what you may think, or have been taught to think, the Catholic Church has NEVER contradicted the Scriptures.
Merry Christmas brother Apophasis!!!
- Status
Merry Christmas brother Apophasis!!!
M
mom2three
Guest
No response to my above response to you, apop?
O
Odell
Guest
Paul is not telling us how God Himself justifies through faith alone. You know Paul has more books in the bible than Rom lets see what Paul has to say about faith and works
PAUL (Gal 5:6) “But only faith WORKING threw love COUNTS for anything.”
PAUL (1Cor13:2) “IF I have all faith as to move mountains but do not have LOVE I am NOTHING”
PAUL (1Cor13:13) “so faith, hope and love remain these three but the GREATEST is LOVE.”
The greatest is Love? if Paul believes faith is all we need than why does Paul say Love is the greatest would not faith be the greatest?
PAUL (1Tim5:8) “he who does not provide for his family is worse than an unbeliever.”
would you please take the time to explain these verses to me. I does not seem Paul believes faith alone at all. The burdon is on you.
You also said
Well what is Paul saying in (Gal 5:6)
“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcission nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working throuh love.”
What is Paul alluuding to here with uncircumcision.
What you fail to understand is that Paul nowhere says you are saved by faith alone show me the verse!!!
And by what authority do you have over us? why is your interpritation any better than our 2000 years of interpritation?
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
I kind of lost track of this thread, but has any Protestant explaind this verse:30 But Phinehas stood up and intervened,
and the plague was checked.
31 This was credited to him as righteousness
for endless generations to come.
Psalm 106 (Referencing Numbers 25:1-8)
How do Protestants around here explain v31?
p.s. I never knew about this verse before until I read it in the book Not By Faith Alone by Robert Sungenis, any Catholic who uses this verse in the future must promise to buy this masterpiece of Apologetics (Christmas gift?)…
and the plague was checked.
31 This was credited to him as righteousness
for endless generations to come.
Psalm 106 (Referencing Numbers 25:1-8)
How do Protestants around here explain v31?
p.s. I never knew about this verse before until I read it in the book Not By Faith Alone by Robert Sungenis, any Catholic who uses this verse in the future must promise to buy this masterpiece of Apologetics (Christmas gift?)…
O
Odell
Guest
You know something else gets me. Catholic like to deminstrate our faith with our works. But we get people who come to these forums and try to tell us our works mean nothing.
My question is why would anyone try to convince us not to do Gods will? Can anyone explain this to me please. Why do you have such a problem with us deminstrateing our faith with works?
“Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.” (Jm 2:18)
we are going to continue to do Gods will. Stop trying to convince us otherwise.
My question is why would anyone try to convince us not to do Gods will? Can anyone explain this to me please. Why do you have such a problem with us deminstrateing our faith with works?
“Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.” (Jm 2:18)
we are going to continue to do Gods will. Stop trying to convince us otherwise.
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apophasis
Guest
No one’s trying to convince you not to do works or even “God’s will.” You have completely misunderstood and misrpresented the whole point of this debate.
M
mikeledes
Guest
It’s funny how you say I take verses out of context and contradict myself but never directly respond to those verses. Those verses clearly contradict what you are saying, that is, if you don’t engage in outlandish redefinition of words and phrases and change their standard meaning.
No one has a claim to God’s mercy based on his works or biological descent from Abraham through Isaac. God is sovereign and is not obligated by anyone to show mercy on anyone. He freely establishes the condition for receiving the gift of righteousness (by grace through faith) and the conditions for retaining that gift and enjoying it to its fullest degree in the age to come (by grace through faith working through love). We have no role in determining these conditions and nothing we do outside of these conditions will assure us the mercy of God or our final salvation. That is the point to Romans 4 and all other passages on salvation. A point your narrow and overextended interpretation of Romans 4 completely misses.
God Bless,
Michael
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apophasis
Guest
Amen!!!
You were doing good except for the “and” part. There are no “conditions” attached to the gift given based solely “on the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 3:24). When YOU attach conditions to this marvelous “gift” based on Christ’s word, and Christ’s alone, YOU turn remove God’s “grace” (unmerited favor) and introduce instead a meritorious system. “Merit” is neither a N.T. work or connotation.Rom 4:4-5 “Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”
Rom 8:31-33 "What then shall we say to these things? If God {is} for us, who {is} against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;"These are addressed to FAITH, Michael. If you do not accept these truths by Paul by simple faith, you will not, nor cannot, understand his exhortation for godly living in accordance with one’s calling in Christ. You will interpret them exactly as you now do, as threats and conditions to one’s salvation.
To the contrary, it is YOU who are introducing the “conditions,” not Paul.
Your problem is that you erroneously apply ALL passages to salvation.
My interpretation of Romans four is right on the mark: “But to the one who does not work but BELIEVES, HIS FAITH…”
G
Gunger
Guest
Apophasis:
I think you need to refocus a little bit.
Since when does a Catholic have to disagree with faith being credited as righteousness? Romans 4:4-5 is entirely consistent with the Catholic position-- it in no way excludes the fact that works also justify; it means what it says. Faith without works is “credited” (by the way, that is Paul’s word, Paul introducing the idea of merit… not mine).
Likewise, in your reference to Romans 3:24, Catholics do not disagree that Jesus’ death on the cross and resurrection redeemed all-- indeed, Jesus redeemed ALL whether they believe or not. It appears you may be confusing “redemption” with “salvation.” They are two very different things. One (redemption) gives you the CHANCE to be saved (prior to the resurrection, only Jews could inherit the kingdom of God). The other, (salvation) SAVES you.
The problem with arguing Romans in support of sola fide is that the only way you can do so is by bite sized quotes. However, if you read the entirety of the book, Paul makes the point that faith alone…while it absolutely empowers you through Christ to redemption and is therefore essential…is NOT a substitute for faithfulness (which actually SAVES). See Romans 11:22 ("…provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off").
To say that Paul believes that salvation is a “moment” rather than a “process” is to disregard solely through intellectualization fully half of any epsitle written by the Apostle. I say this not simply as an absolute to get a rise out of you (that too), but as a straight up fact. Indeed, “thinking” holy is not enough. As Hebrews pointedly affirms, without holiness, “no one will see the Lord” (12:14)
Frankly, the struggle in this debate does not come from Romans-- you can debate Romans efficiently from either perspective (though I obviously believe the Catholic perspective has the upper hand). The rub comes down to Ephesians and the Gospels. If I am trying to argue the Protestant heresy (another dig…sorry), I would point to Ephesians 2 as the ONLY apparently unequivocal statement by Paul that faith…and not works… justifies. The problem here (as with anywhere in Paul), is that Ephesians 3 puts a context on the statement: Paul is once again discussing works in the old law…and we know (and agree) that Christ’s sacrifice wiped that slate clean.
The Gospels are more troubling, simply because we all must agree that scripture cannot contradict itself. Indeed, while there are hosts of examples of Jesus saying that believing in him provides eternal life, there are just as many where Jesus stresses the importance of perseverence and faithfulness (e.g., Luke 8:11-15; Matt 19:16-17) for salvation. Whether you profess sola fide or not, how do we reconcile these without engaging in strained intellectualization?
The answer, I believe, is simple, and can be obtained by asking a simple series of questions about belief grounded in the Great Commandment: do we have to love (believe in) jesus to be saved, and, if so, how do we love(believe in) Jesus? Jesus himself defines that requirement: love others as he loved us. And Paul…without question…highlights this repeatedly in EVERYone of his epistles. Love is an act…a work. And love…saves.
Moreover, when you think of it in terms of love, it eliminates any discussion of “merit” or “earning.” Why? Because love is given freely without expecting anything in return…including salvation itself.
You see, it is not a question of “humanizing” salvation or “intellectualizing” grace. It is an issue of becoming selfless. Of loving THROUGH Christ. And to say that Christ’s love does not justify…well, that is just plain silly.
G.
I think you need to refocus a little bit.
Since when does a Catholic have to disagree with faith being credited as righteousness? Romans 4:4-5 is entirely consistent with the Catholic position-- it in no way excludes the fact that works also justify; it means what it says. Faith without works is “credited” (by the way, that is Paul’s word, Paul introducing the idea of merit… not mine).
Likewise, in your reference to Romans 3:24, Catholics do not disagree that Jesus’ death on the cross and resurrection redeemed all-- indeed, Jesus redeemed ALL whether they believe or not. It appears you may be confusing “redemption” with “salvation.” They are two very different things. One (redemption) gives you the CHANCE to be saved (prior to the resurrection, only Jews could inherit the kingdom of God). The other, (salvation) SAVES you.
The problem with arguing Romans in support of sola fide is that the only way you can do so is by bite sized quotes. However, if you read the entirety of the book, Paul makes the point that faith alone…while it absolutely empowers you through Christ to redemption and is therefore essential…is NOT a substitute for faithfulness (which actually SAVES). See Romans 11:22 ("…provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off").
To say that Paul believes that salvation is a “moment” rather than a “process” is to disregard solely through intellectualization fully half of any epsitle written by the Apostle. I say this not simply as an absolute to get a rise out of you (that too), but as a straight up fact. Indeed, “thinking” holy is not enough. As Hebrews pointedly affirms, without holiness, “no one will see the Lord” (12:14)
Frankly, the struggle in this debate does not come from Romans-- you can debate Romans efficiently from either perspective (though I obviously believe the Catholic perspective has the upper hand). The rub comes down to Ephesians and the Gospels. If I am trying to argue the Protestant heresy (another dig…sorry), I would point to Ephesians 2 as the ONLY apparently unequivocal statement by Paul that faith…and not works… justifies. The problem here (as with anywhere in Paul), is that Ephesians 3 puts a context on the statement: Paul is once again discussing works in the old law…and we know (and agree) that Christ’s sacrifice wiped that slate clean.
The Gospels are more troubling, simply because we all must agree that scripture cannot contradict itself. Indeed, while there are hosts of examples of Jesus saying that believing in him provides eternal life, there are just as many where Jesus stresses the importance of perseverence and faithfulness (e.g., Luke 8:11-15; Matt 19:16-17) for salvation. Whether you profess sola fide or not, how do we reconcile these without engaging in strained intellectualization?
The answer, I believe, is simple, and can be obtained by asking a simple series of questions about belief grounded in the Great Commandment: do we have to love (believe in) jesus to be saved, and, if so, how do we love(believe in) Jesus? Jesus himself defines that requirement: love others as he loved us. And Paul…without question…highlights this repeatedly in EVERYone of his epistles. Love is an act…a work. And love…saves.
Moreover, when you think of it in terms of love, it eliminates any discussion of “merit” or “earning.” Why? Because love is given freely without expecting anything in return…including salvation itself.
You see, it is not a question of “humanizing” salvation or “intellectualizing” grace. It is an issue of becoming selfless. Of loving THROUGH Christ. And to say that Christ’s love does not justify…well, that is just plain silly.
G.
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mikeledes
Guest
Here is the New International Version translation (Protestant) of Romans 2:6-7:
God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
So when God says that He renders to everyone according to his works at judgement, he is not referring to “eternal goodie bags” or “crowns”, but to eternal life or eternal damnation. After judgement, the eternal life we freely received while being in Christ in the present age will be confirmed, forever sealed, and enjoyed to a fuller degree (i.e. entrance into the heavenly Jerusalem, crowns, rewards) However, God has promised this fuller enjoyment of eternal life to those in Christ who have persevered to the end by grace through faith working through love (perseverance in doing good). That is why the Bible says that only those who endure to the end will be saved. The imperishable crown is an inseparable aspect of eternal life in the age to come, not a separate reward. Those who fail to receive the crown, therefore, are those do not enter into eternal life in the age to come
James 1:12
“Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”
James 2:5
"Listen, my beloved brethren; did not God chose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which HE PROMISED TO THOSE WHO LOVE HIM?.
The kingdom is promised to those who love Him. Does this mean that some Christians will be excluded out of the kingdom? Absolutely not. It is for all the righteous. The crown, like the kingdom, is promised to those who love Him. Therefore, like the kingdom, it is for all glorified Christians, not just the superlative performers. The crown and the kingdom are inseparable aspects of eternal life in the age to come (Matthew 25:34 & 46). So when Paul says he will be “disqualified”, he is not merely talking about disqualification from the crown. The crown certifies that one has entered into eternal life, so diquaification from the crown means disqualification from eternal life in the age to come.
Also, I was rereading your response to John 15 and you said that the Christian is cast out as a dried up branch. The text does not say that. The text says that the branch is cast out, DRIES UP, and is thrown to the fire. The drying up is a result of the casting out, namely, being cut off from the vine. A branch that is cut off from the vine dies and that is why it dries up. The person in Christ who is cut off also dries up (i.e. dies spiritually) because he has been cut off from the source of eternal life, Jesus. This is the clear Biblical interpretation and contradicts what you, not Paul, are saying.
God Bless,
Michael
God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
So when God says that He renders to everyone according to his works at judgement, he is not referring to “eternal goodie bags” or “crowns”, but to eternal life or eternal damnation. After judgement, the eternal life we freely received while being in Christ in the present age will be confirmed, forever sealed, and enjoyed to a fuller degree (i.e. entrance into the heavenly Jerusalem, crowns, rewards) However, God has promised this fuller enjoyment of eternal life to those in Christ who have persevered to the end by grace through faith working through love (perseverance in doing good). That is why the Bible says that only those who endure to the end will be saved. The imperishable crown is an inseparable aspect of eternal life in the age to come, not a separate reward. Those who fail to receive the crown, therefore, are those do not enter into eternal life in the age to come
James 1:12
“Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”
James 2:5
"Listen, my beloved brethren; did not God chose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which HE PROMISED TO THOSE WHO LOVE HIM?.
The kingdom is promised to those who love Him. Does this mean that some Christians will be excluded out of the kingdom? Absolutely not. It is for all the righteous. The crown, like the kingdom, is promised to those who love Him. Therefore, like the kingdom, it is for all glorified Christians, not just the superlative performers. The crown and the kingdom are inseparable aspects of eternal life in the age to come (Matthew 25:34 & 46). So when Paul says he will be “disqualified”, he is not merely talking about disqualification from the crown. The crown certifies that one has entered into eternal life, so diquaification from the crown means disqualification from eternal life in the age to come.
Also, I was rereading your response to John 15 and you said that the Christian is cast out as a dried up branch. The text does not say that. The text says that the branch is cast out, DRIES UP, and is thrown to the fire. The drying up is a result of the casting out, namely, being cut off from the vine. A branch that is cut off from the vine dies and that is why it dries up. The person in Christ who is cut off also dries up (i.e. dies spiritually) because he has been cut off from the source of eternal life, Jesus. This is the clear Biblical interpretation and contradicts what you, not Paul, are saying.
God Bless,
Michael
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runandsew
Guest
If Abraham exercised his faith in God’s promise of A son by Sarah in Chapter 15, then in Chapter 16 does it say?
Abram’s wife Sarai had borne him no children. She had, however, an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar. Sarai said to Abram: “The LORD has kept me from bearing children. Have intercourse, then, with my maid; perhaps I shall have sons through her.” Abram heeded Sarai’s request. Thus, after Abram had lived ten years in the land of Canaan, his wife Sarai took her maid, Hagar the Egyptian, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his concubine. He had intercourse with her, and she became pregnant.
To me it kind of sounds like he really didn’t have a strong faith in Gods promise of a child by Sarah that was spoken of back in chapter 15.
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runandsew
Guest
Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus
Amen, we as Catholics believe that God saves us by His Grace alone.
But when Paul is writing about faith and works, he is talking about that we are saved by faith apart from “works of the law”.
Not faith alone, but apart from the ceremonial laws that were started in Deuteronomy, the sacrifices, the dietary laws, circumcision, and such. He is not talking about corporal works of mercy. Paul is dealing with issues that the Gentiles would not have to subscribe to the mosaic laws to be justified. All of his writings talk about this, it was a big issue at that time, they even tried to kill him on this issue of what he was teaching, he was beaten many times almost to death.
But he is not teaching faith alone, but an obedient faith apart from works of the law.
M
mikeledes
Guest
The Bible tells us:
Ephesians 4:32
Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.
Colossians 3:13
"…just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.
We are called to forgive other just as god has forgiven us. Now lets read:
Matthew 18:32-35
Then summoning him, the lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way I had mercy on you? And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the tortureres until he should repay all that was owed him. My heavenly father will also do the same to uou, if each of you does not forgive his brother from the heart.
In this parable, the servant had a debt he was unable to pay and out of pure mercy, his lord forgave his debt. This is a symbol of the freely given mercy of God to the justified whose works can never pay their eternal debt and earn the mercy of God. But after he was forgiven, he refused to forgive the debt of his fellow slave and we know what his lord does to him. Jesus said that the Heavenly father will do the same to “you.” Who is he talking to? To all those who have freely received the mercy of God and, subsequent to that, do not forgive those that sin against them. Just as the lord withdrew the mercy he showed to the unforgiving servant, God will withdraw His mercy from the justified if they do not forgive others and will hand them to the “torturers” (i.e. eternal damnation). This is a clear example of God establishing a condtion (i.e. a work of mercy) to retain the freely given mercy and righteousness given to the justified.
God Bless,
Michael
Ephesians 4:32
Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.
Colossians 3:13
"…just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.
We are called to forgive other just as god has forgiven us. Now lets read:
Matthew 18:32-35
Then summoning him, the lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way I had mercy on you? And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the tortureres until he should repay all that was owed him. My heavenly father will also do the same to uou, if each of you does not forgive his brother from the heart.
In this parable, the servant had a debt he was unable to pay and out of pure mercy, his lord forgave his debt. This is a symbol of the freely given mercy of God to the justified whose works can never pay their eternal debt and earn the mercy of God. But after he was forgiven, he refused to forgive the debt of his fellow slave and we know what his lord does to him. Jesus said that the Heavenly father will do the same to “you.” Who is he talking to? To all those who have freely received the mercy of God and, subsequent to that, do not forgive those that sin against them. Just as the lord withdrew the mercy he showed to the unforgiving servant, God will withdraw His mercy from the justified if they do not forgive others and will hand them to the “torturers” (i.e. eternal damnation). This is a clear example of God establishing a condtion (i.e. a work of mercy) to retain the freely given mercy and righteousness given to the justified.
God Bless,
Michael
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apophasis
Guest
OK everyone. I think I’ve taken this chapter in Romans as far I can with you, and you with me.
Still, for me, Paul is unequivocally teaching in Romans four, “sola fide.”
As much as you try to rationalize you’ll never get passed his blaring, yet extremely comforting, words:“But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, HIS FAITH (not his baptism, not subsequent *works *of any kind) is (not “are”; singular) reckoned to Him as righteousness.”
I’m just going to have to trust God’s Word on this. I can do nothing else. But one thing you must understand about me, I LOVE HIS WORD!!!
And this is my last word on this thread.
Thanks for the dialogue everyone. I’m sure we’ll meet on another controversial thread. Looking forward to it.
Right now I’m going to turn off this machine cuz we’re getting pounded with heavy winds and lots of rain out here in the P.N.W.
Blessings all!
Still, for me, Paul is unequivocally teaching in Romans four, “sola fide.”
As much as you try to rationalize you’ll never get passed his blaring, yet extremely comforting, words:“But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, HIS FAITH (not his baptism, not subsequent *works *of any kind) is (not “are”; singular) reckoned to Him as righteousness.”
I’m just going to have to trust God’s Word on this. I can do nothing else. But one thing you must understand about me, I LOVE HIS WORD!!!
And this is my last word on this thread.
Thanks for the dialogue everyone. I’m sure we’ll meet on another controversial thread. Looking forward to it.
Right now I’m going to turn off this machine cuz we’re getting pounded with heavy winds and lots of rain out here in the P.N.W.
Blessings all!
M
mikeledes
Guest
Oh well, Apophasis, its been nice having this discussion with you. You had good and compelling arguments. Too bad you never directly addressed the verses that contradicted you. Like you, I have a great love for the Word of God. Though I do not believe your interpretation fits with the entire Bible, I believe you have a sincere relationship with Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I pray that God will bless you and that one day you might open your mind a bit more in order to see that you’re putting something in Romans 4 that is not there.
Hope the bad whether ends soon.
God Bless,
Michael
Hope the bad whether ends soon.
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
Oh, one last thing. The verse is clearly talking about the ungodly, not those who have already been made righteous by God by his freely given grace. Hence “justifies the ungodly.” This is talking about how one gets incorporated into Christ, not how one REMAINS incorporated.
My final words in this thread… I promise!
God Bless,
Michael
P
Philthy
Guest
Although we disagree, I think you have done a great job of defending your position. I appreciate that you are doing so out of goodness. I also appreciate the others that have contribute so well…
apo:
I dont feel the need to rationalize this or to get past it - certainly no more than some need to “rationalize or get past” James 2:24.
The single biggest obstacle to any discussion remains with the the last 5 words of the verse. Do they mean that Abraham was completely and permanently righteous for all eternity or something else?
apo:
Good! Love and trust all of it!
apo:
I’ll pray that your safety is God’s Will.
Phil
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Your Protestant friend views salvation as an event as opposed to a process. I will address that in a second post. But first, let’s examine Abraham.
Justification as an ongoing process
In Genesis, we read: “Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.” (Genesis 15:6)
Commenting on this passage, the Apostle Paul wrote:
“What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.’ “ (Romans 4:1-3)
If justification is a one-time event as many Protestants claim it to be, then Abraham could not receive justification either before or after this event in Genesis 15:6. However, the Bible states he did both.
First, consider this passage:
“By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.” (Hebrews 11:8)
The subject of Hebrews 11 is saving faith as can be seen from the opening verses: “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.” (Hebrews 11:1-2) One is not commended for one’s faith unless it is saving faith. Therefore, the faith that Abraham is commended for in Hebrews 11:8 must be saving faith. But when did Abraham have this saving faith? It was “when called to go to a place he would later receive” and he “obeyed and went”.
The problem for the once-for-all view of justification is that the call of Abraham to leave Haran is recorded in Genesis 12:1-4, three chapters before he is justified in Genesis 15:6. From this, we see that Abraham was justified before, years before, he was justified in Genesis 16:6.
But that’s not all. James tells us:
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.” (James 2:21-23 KJV)
The account of the testing of Abraham is found in Genesis 22 which is well after Genesis 15:6.
We see, therefore, that Abraham was justified on at least three different occasions: Genesis 12, when he left Haran in faith; in Genesis 15, when he believed God’s promise concerning his descendants; and in Genesis 22, when he offered his son, Isaac, on the altar. As a result, justification must be seen, not as a once-for-all event, but as a process that continues throughout the believer’s life.
*Adapted from *The Salvation Controversy by James Akin.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Salvation as a past event
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. (Ephesians 2:4-5)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
Salvation as an ongoing activity
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (Philippians 2:12-13)
Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. (1 Peter 1:8-9)
Salvation as a future event
And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. (Romans 13:11)
If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. (1 Corinthians 3:12-15)
When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 5:4-5)
A general summary of salvation, highlighting its past, present and future dimensions, would go something like this: “Salvation is a process that begins when a person first becomes a Christian, continues for the rest of his life, and is completed when he stands before God in judgement.” This summary allows the faithful Christian to do justice to all of the biblical data by saying, in faith and hope, “I have been saved, I am being saved, I will be saved.” It embraces all three dimensions of salvation that are present in the Bible.
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. (Ephesians 2:4-5)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
Salvation as an ongoing activity
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (Philippians 2:12-13)
Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. (1 Peter 1:8-9)
Salvation as a future event
And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. (Romans 13:11)
If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. (1 Corinthians 3:12-15)
When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 5:4-5)
A general summary of salvation, highlighting its past, present and future dimensions, would go something like this: “Salvation is a process that begins when a person first becomes a Christian, continues for the rest of his life, and is completed when he stands before God in judgement.” This summary allows the faithful Christian to do justice to all of the biblical data by saying, in faith and hope, “I have been saved, I am being saved, I will be saved.” It embraces all three dimensions of salvation that are present in the Bible.
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