HELP! Does Romans 4 preach sola fide?

[apophasis]

Exactly were is the one passage in the bible that says this?

Or is it implied?

Eph 2:5 “…even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),”

Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;”

2 Tim 1:9 “…who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,”

Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,"I don’t think “have been saved,” “has saved us,” and “He saved us,” are mere implications. Now the one who refuses to believe God’s Word comes back with “Yeah, but it isn’t saying you can’t lose it.” But then Christ Himself would be a liar:John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.“Has” eternal life is not a mere implication, nor is “will not perish.” And “eternal” means everlasting. The problem is not that Scriptures are ambiguous, but that men refuse to believe them.

 

[VociMike]

Your problem, Mike, is that you’ve adopted the false teaching that “everything else He asks you to do” determines your salvation status, rendering salvation not by grace (unmerited divine favor) through faith, but by self-works. But Paul explicitly teaches us, “not as a result of works, that no one should boast.”

I would respond to more of your comments, but the CA quote feature is too clumsy to separate out all your replies, so I’ll just focus on this one. You didn’t answer my question. Can one be saved even if, after that one microsecond of faith, one rejects everything that God asks of one?

Actually, you didn’t answer my question about faith either. Why does God require that we trust Him before He will save us, but does not require anything else of us, not one tiny little thing? Why does God allow a microsecond of faith to determine whether one spends eternity in heaven, or eternity in hell? If salvation has nothing to do with what we do, why must we have faith to be saved? It seems a blatant contradiction.

Oh, BTW, does your theology say that this former evangelical preacher is saved?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Eph 2:5 “…even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),”

Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;”

2 Tim 1:9 “…who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,”

Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,"I don’t think “have been saved,” “has saved us,” and “He saved us,” are mere implications. Now the one who refuses to believe God’s Word comes back with “Yeah, but it isn’t saying you can’t lose it.” But then Christ Himself would be a liar:John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.“Has” eternal life is not a mere implication, nor is “will not perish.” And “eternal” means everlasting. The problem is not that Scriptures are ambiguous, but that men refuse to believe them.

Surely anyone who truely believes must also love God and love his neighbor, and surely anyone who believes must also forgive, not blaspheme against the Holy Spirit to be saved. These are all clearly taught by Christ as required for salvation. Each must be present for salvation to be judged at the end of life, not during it.

Now either the vesus you quote are in error or your interpertaton is in error. What you said is worth repeating “The problem is not that scriptures are ambiguous, but that men refuse to believe them.”

The misguided will say, “Salvation comes through faith alone”. The true believer knows that this can never be true. The misguided believe that they alone, and an act of declaration in front of a faith communty, are responsible for their own salvation once and for all. This declaration in front of people which is of the upmost importance for “salvation” is clearly boastful and is warned against in scripture.

Misguiding people isn’t a game to be played. No points are scored by discussing in this manner.

Try an open and honest discussion, not this “tit for tat” stuff.

 

[sara888]

Eph 2:5 “…even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),”

Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;”

2 Tim 1:9 “…who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,”

Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,"I don’t think “have been saved,” “has saved us,” and “He saved us,” are mere implications. Now the one who refuses to believe God’s Word comes back with “Yeah, but it isn’t saying you can’t lose it.” But then Christ Himself would be a liar:John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.“Has” eternal life is not a mere implication, nor is “will not perish.” And “eternal” means everlasting. The problem is not that Scriptures are ambiguous, but that men refuse to believe them.

**He who believes. He who hears my word… has eternal life… you fail to define what real faith or belief means… Its an action also on our part… Real faith requires obedience to Gods commandments.since they are essential to Faith… If you follow , if you abide, if you remain steadfast…( if , if if, if,if,if,) there are conditions for the believer.

Also if your theology is correct as you claim what would be the need for repentance from a Christian…?? Christ calls us to repent of our sins… Why…??

**
Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Matthew 7:13-14**

Jan**

 

[sara888]

**Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.

Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. (1 John 3:4-10)

This does not mean believers are without sin (1 John 1:7-10), but they do not continue to live in any evil way. They also do not follow after lies (as a pattern of their life), but after truth, the word of God; because they believe God, follow after Him, and take heed to what He says. As Jesus said, “He who is of God hears God’s words” (John 8:47; see also Matthew 7:21-27).**

 

[mikeledes]

Can you please point out to us in which verse in Rom. 4 Paul uses the word “initial” with the word “justification?” Or for that matter, as a qualifier?

Justification is a process, not a one shot deal. Otherwise, how do you explain James 2:21:

“Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?”

Compare this with verse 23. In Romans 4, the justification of Abraham occured BEFORE the sacrifice of Isaac. So when is he declared righteous? How can we explain the fact that the Bible mentions two different instances in which Abraham was justified? Verse 23 clearly indicates that the justification James is talking about is justification before GOD, not man. How do we explain this if justification is by faith alone and a one time event? The only way to reconcile the two is by understanding justification as a process initiated by grace through faith and preserved and increased through works. The works themselves are the fruits of grace and ultimately have their origin in God.

God Bless

 

[mdcpensive1]

Hello Catholic Dude.
You have good insite to the question of Abraham being credited as righteous. Not only in Genesis 12 did he leave a land because of faith, in Genesis 12-14 he fought a battle, offered gifts to Melchisadek, received a blessing from him, and made an alter for sacrifice to Yahweh. All these things he did before Chapter 15 as quoted by Paul. So my question to the forum people is “when did Abraham really get righteous”?

 

[mom2three]

Eph 2:5 “…even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),”

Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;”

2 Tim 1:9 "…who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works…

Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy…
​

These are refering to works of the LAW, not works required by Christians such as love and obedience to God.

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word…

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you…

Apophasis,

No one discredits the verses you mention but they also must be read together with the rest of scripture. It is not an issue of faith OR works… but faith AND works.

How do you interpret James 2:14-26? Let’s be clear, that works are not the works of the law but the works that Christians refer to, such as: love, kindness, generosity… you know… the things that make us evident as faithful Christians, which cannot be separated from faith… because faith without works is dead.

And what do you do with these passages?

Matthew 19:16-21
16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”

18"Which ones?" the man inquired.

Jesus replied, " ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’[a] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’**"

20"All these I have kept," the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

John 5:28-29
28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Romans 2:6-13
6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.”[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Also 2 Corinth 5:10, Phil 2:12, John 2:3-6

All of these indicate that faith ALONE cannot save just as works ALONE cannot save. They cannot be separated. No one here is denying that faith is essential for salvation… but God also calls us to live in obedience, without which, our faith is dead.**​

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Hello Catholic Dude.
You have good insite to the question of Abraham being credited as righteous. Not only in Genesis 12 did he leave a land because of faith, in Genesis 12-14 he fought a battle, offered gifts to Melchisadek, received a blessing from him, and made an alter for sacrifice to Yahweh. All these things he did before Chapter 15 as quoted by Paul. So my question to the forum people is “when did Abraham really get righteous”?

Im interested as well to see how protestants answer this…

 

[apophasis]

Surely anyone who truely believes must also love God and love his neighbor, and surely anyone who believes must also forgive, not blaspheme against the Holy Spirit to be saved. These are all clearly taught by Christ as required for salvation.

Yes, the saved do love God, love their neighbor, forgive (albeit all imperfectly) and, obviously have not blasphemed the Holy Spirit. But NONE of these are a prerequisite FOR salvation. What must I do to be saved, asked the Philippian jailer. His answer is recorded in Acts 16:31.

Each must be present for salvation to be judged at the end of life, not during it.

And this is where you and your church err. Salvation is not something judged at the end of one’s life. It is gifted by God to the one who believes “the word of the cross” in THIS present life:"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works…."You present a non-biblical salvation that is “rewarded,” not gifted.

Now either the vesus you quote are in error or your interpertaton is in error. What you said is worth repeating “The problem is not that scriptures are ambiguous, but that men refuse to believe them.”

Of course we know the Scriptures cannot error, being the Word of God. However, salvation is based on whether or not you believe in Christ and the word of the cross. There is no judgment to determine one’s salvation at the end of one’s life, but as Paul says,"Behold, NOW is “the acceptable time,” behold, NOW is "the day of salvaiton."And Christ Himself said:John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

The misguided will say, “Salvation comes through faith alone”.

The SAVED truly know they “have been saved” through faith in Christ alone. The word of the cross is not foolishness to them. Now we who know we’re saved because of our faith in Christ alone may be called by you who don’t believe, “misguided fools,” but that doesn’t change the FACT that we “…have been saved.” And we now live our lives not to please men, but God who saved us according to His grace through the cross of Christ.

Try an open and honest discussion, not this “tit for tat” stuff.

My discussions are wide open and completely honest, nor am I playing a “tit for tat” game with you, nor misguiding people. Salvation, of course, is a VERY serious matter. Paul was extremely serious when he confronted the Galatians about those who “distort the gospel of Christ.” The message Paul first took to those souls in the region of Galatia was the same as what he wrote to those in Rome: Gal. 2:9 “So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham the believer.”
**
Rom. 4:1-5** “What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor (i.e., grace), but as what is due (i.e., payment rendered for works done). But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”

Rom. 4:16 “For this reason {it is} by faith, in order that {it may be} in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,”

Gal 3:7-8 "Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, {saying,} "All the nations will be blessed in you."It’s quite clear, Sean, salvation is based on sola fide. And unless you are “of faith” you are not a son of Abraham who “believed God” (Rom. 4:3); and if not a son of Abraham then not credited (reckoned) with divine righteouness (“that which comes from God on the basis of faith”). The only righteousness “approved” by God (Phil. 3:9).

 

[apophasis]

sara888:

He who believes. He who hears my word… has eternal life… you fail to define what real faith or belief means…

But I have defined it. Not only in this thread, but in many other discussions we’ve had on the subject in other theads. True faith is personal trust in God’s Word, specifically, as Paul says, “the word of the cross,” which is “foolishness” to those think they can “work out” their own salvation.

Also if your theology is correct as you claim what would be the need for repentance from a Christian…?? Christ calls us to repent of our sins… Why…??

Where does Jesus say, “Repent of your sins?”

Peter stood up and told his fellow Jews to “repent” in Acts 2:38. And in Acts 3 he tells them that they acted in ignorance when they disowned the Holy and Righteous One. So he tells them to “repent” that there sins may be “wiped away.” He doen’t tell them, “repent of your sins,” but to “repent…that your sins might be wiped away.”

Biblical repentance (metanoeo) means to change one’s mind or purpose (certainly this has moral implications as well).

In other words, Peter’s fellow Jews were to change their minds concerning Jesus, the Messiah, whom they’d previously rejected in ignorance. And when they do, because of the cross, their sins would be wiped away.

The same message he took to the Gentiles:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins” (cf. 5:31)And read Paul’s instruction from the Lord Himself: Acts 26:16-18 'But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you; rescuing you from the {Jewish} people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'To “turn from” is an act of repentance. And when they do, through faith in Christ, they receive forgiveness of sins (based on Christ’s substituitionary sin-sacrifice).

Enter by the narrow gate;

Which is Christ Himself (John 14:6).

 

[apophasis]

Mikeledes:

Compare this with verse 23. In Romans 4, the justification of Abraham occured BEFORE the sacrifice of Isaac. So when is he declared righteous? How can we explain the fact that the Bible mentions two different instances in which Abraham was justified?

It doesn’t. James refers back to, and quotes, Gen. 15:6. He cannot quote any verse in Gen. 22 (when the attempted sacrifice takes place) because God does not reckon Abraham righteous based on his willingness to, at that time, offer up Isaac.

James explicitly says regarding the FAITH of Abraham, by which he was declared righteous by God some 20 years earlier, that that Scripture (Gen. 15:6) was “fulfilled” which says,"And Abraham believed God, and it (his faith) was reckoned (by God) to him as righteousness."He does not point to the time of the offering up of Isaac as ANOTHER declaration of divine justification but that SAME faith, by which God justified Abraham back in Gen. 15:6, was now “working with his works, and as a result of the works, FAITH was perfected” (see vs. 22) - not justification.

There is only ONE place where it is recorded that God declared Abaham righteousness (and that justification based on his faith alone), and BOTH Paul and James quote that same, specific verse. They can quote no other.

In Ja. 2:23 this word “fulfilled” is deeply significant. James is arguing that there was, and always is, the eschatological as well as the declarative element in justifiction. The moment He (God) declares sinners rightous, they are so, having immediately the standing of being in Christ before Him. What James is insisting on, in the context, is that there will be a living walk, “fulfilling,” or displaying, the Divine declaration that the man IS righteous.

When James says, “as a result of the works, faith was perfected” he is expanding the statement, “faith was working with his works.” Just as Paul says, “faith working through love” (Gal. 5:6). Saving faith, or the faith by which God justifies a man, obviously is a living, acting thing as against mere opinion or profession (i.e., a sterile, religious “faith”); the exact point James is driving home.

Now try to grasp this very important distinction before you respond:

James in no way is stating that justification is the result of any works, but rather works are the result (or fruit) of true faith. They (works) are not, like faith itself, a condition of salvation. Nor can they (works) ever produce divine justification. Such a justification is gifted by God and based solely on faith (Rom. 3:24), never rewarded based on works. Which is the contention of you who believe that the status of your salvation will be judged and determined at the end of your life.

James is arguing against the mere profession of faith, a false faith:James 2:18 "But someone may {well} say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."And it is in this context that you must interpret the passage or you distort him completely.

 

[apophasis]

mdvpensive1:

You have good insite to the question of Abraham being credited as righteous. Not only in Genesis 12 did he leave a land because of faith, in Genesis 12-14 he fought a battle, offered gifts to Melchisadek, received a blessing from him, and made an alter for sacrifice to Yahweh. All these things he did before Chapter 15 as quoted by Paul. So my question to the forum people is “when did Abraham really get righteous”?

This is not a matter of opinion but revelation: Gen. 15:6.

 

[apophasis]

These are refering to works of the LAW, not works required by Christians such as love and obedience to God.

So your contention is that the Law didn’t require of Israel such things as love and obedience?

You whole argument fails by the chapter you question, Rom. 4. In it Paul cites two men: Abraham, who was not under the Law, and David, who was born under and bound to the Law. BOTH were justified by God through faith alone. And he sums it up in verse 16:Rom 4:16 “For this reason {it is} by faith, in order that {it may be} in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,”

Apophasis,
No one discredits the verses you mention but they also must be read together with the rest of scripture. It is not an issue of faith OR works… but faith AND works.

Yes, that is the issue. And Paul is quite clear on this matter of "AND works:"Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast…”

How do you interpret James 2:14-26?

See my post above.

All of these indicate that faith ALONE cannot save just as works ALONE cannot save. They cannot be separated. No one here is denying that faith is essential for salvation… but God also calls us to live in obedience, without which, our faith is dead.

IN CONTEXT the verses you provided do not teach faith plus works. Catholics always gravitate to Roman, chapters 1 and 2, but Paul, IN CONTEXT, in those chapters, is building his case that “there is none righteous, not even one,” (3:10, i.e., either the Jew, under the Law, or Gentile, steeped in idolatry), which he then lays out in chapter three, concluding with:Rom 3:21-24 "But now apart from the Law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;There is NONE righteous!! ALL are in need of “the righteousness of God,” which is gifted to the one who puts his faith in Christ alone. This is the “gospel” (good news) message to the world, this side of the cross. This is what Romans 4 is all about: The “righteousness of God” comes through sola fide.

 

[sara888]

But I have defined it. Not only in this thread, but in many other discussions we’ve had on the subject in other theads. True faith is personal trust in God’s Word, specifically, as Paul says, “the word of the cross,” which is “foolishness” to those think they can “work out” their own salvation.Where does Jesus say, “Repent of your sins?”

Peter stood up and told his fellow Jews to “repent” in Acts 2:38. And in Acts 3 he tells them that they acted in ignorance when they disowned the Holy and Righteous One. So he tells them to “repent” that there sins may be “wiped away.” He doen’t tell them, “repent of your sins,” but to “repent…that your sins might be wiped away.”

Biblical repentance (metanoeo) means to change one’s mind or purpose (certainly this has moral implications as well).

In other words, Peter’s fellow Jews were to change their minds concerning Jesus, the Messiah, whom they’d previously rejected in ignorance. And when they do, because of the cross, their sins would be wiped away.

The same message he took to the Gentiles:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins” (cf. 5:31)And read Paul’s instruction from the Lord Himself: Acts 26:16-18 'But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you; rescuing you from the {Jewish} people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'To “turn from” is an act of repentance. And when they do, through faith in Christ, they receive forgiveness of sins (based on Christ’s substituitionary sin-sacrifice).Which is Christ Himself (John 14:6).

**Your kidding right.? Christ does not call us Christians sinners to repent…??? **
**
Ok I get it now, you refuse to read or interpret any verses that have to do with a Faithful Christians obedience to Christ… You preach lawlessness and irresistible grace, yet you will deny this, however we all see this shinning through with your numerous absurd responses to scripture.

You still preach carnal christianity, and I say this kindly, you have been showed numerous amount of times simple scripture, yet you refute most of what Christ teaches.

Repentance is in the KJB over 150 times for Christian sinners, since we all sin. We have communion for rememberance and forgiveness of our sins… There is no such thing as assured salvation, since we dont know what the future holds for us Christians or if we remain steadfast with Christ and walk his ways.
Christ warns us throughout the whole NT what happens to the unrightous and the wicked, who are believers who simply fail to follow the rules of Christ. Its that simple.

Jan**

 

[sara888]

Apop., these two verses are specifically for you to read, grasp and absorb

** Rev 22"14": Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. **

**Matthew 5"19": Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. **

Jan

 

[VociMike]

James in no way is stating that justification is the result of any works, but rather works are the result (or fruit) of true faith. They (works) are not, like faith itself, a condition of salvation. Nor can they (works) ever produce divine justification. Such a justification is gifted by God and based solely on faith (Rom. 3:24), never rewarded based on works. Which is the contention of you who believe that the status of your salvation will be judged and determined at the end of your life.

James is arguing against the mere profession of faith, a false faith:James 2:18 "But someone may {well} say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."And it is in this context that you must interpret the passage or you distort him completely.

So then “faith alone” cannot be true, because there is a type of faith (“false faith” you call it, although James never uses that term) that does not save.

Now, about your comment “works are the fruit of true faith.” If I plant an apple tree, it produces apples. It does not have to make an act of will to produce them, it simply does. The tree does not get to make a choice whether it wants to produce apples in a given season. So, do these works that are the fruit of faith require an act of human will, or do they simply happen? Do we have any choice in doing a given work, or are we simply works-producing “trees,” inevitably producing works with no say in the matter?

 

[mikeledes]

apohasis

It doesn’t. James refers back to, and quotes, Gen. 15:6. He cannot quote any verse in Gen. 22 (when the attempted sacrifice takes place) because God does not reckon Abraham righteous based on his willingness to, at that time, offer up Isaac

And yet, if you read the context, James is specifically speaking about justification. Read verse 25. While James is not saying man is justified by works, he is also not saying that man is justified by faith alone. How can Abraham and Rahab be JUSTIFIED by works if justification is not a process initiated through faith? What kind of justification is he referring to. I’m only aware of one.

God Bless

 

[mtr01]

And yet, if you read the context, James is specifically speaking about justification. Read verse 25. While James is not saying man is justified by works, he is also not saying that man is justified by faith alone. How can Abraham and Rahab be JUSTIFIED by works if justification is not a process initiated through faith? What kind of justification is he referring to. I’m only aware of one.

God Bless

For one, I’ve found it odd that when using Romans 4:3 (or Galations 3:6 for that matter) as a “proof text” for sola fide:
Romans 4:3:

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice.

it’s proponents often forget that the exact same phrase “reputed to him unto justice” is used another time in the Scriptures:
Psalm 105:30-31:

Then Phinees stood up, and pacified him: and the slaughter ceased. And it was reputed to him unto justice, to generation and generation for evermore.
(emphasis mine)

If, then, “reputed unto justice” truly means justified, how exactly did Phineas become justified?
Numbers 25:7-13:

And when Phinees the son of Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest saw it, he rose up from the midst of the multitude, and taking a dagger, Went in after the Israelite into the brothel house, and thrust both of them through together, to wit, the man and the woman in the genital parts. And the scourge ceased from the children of Israel: And there were slain four and twenty thousand men. And the Lord said to Moses: Phinees the son of Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned away my wrath from the children of Israel: because he was moved with my zeal against them, that I myself might not destroy the children of Israel in my zeal. Therefore say to him: Behold I give him the peace of my covenant, And the covenant of the priesthood for ever shall be both to him and his seed, because he hath been zealous for his God, and hath made atonement for the wickedness of the children of Israel.

Phineas was justified by killing the the Isrealite and the prostitute, thereby making atonement for Isreal and abating God’s anger. It was certainly not “faith alone” which justified Phineas.

 

[Philthy]

apo:

No he doesn’t.

Are you saying my translation of 1Cor 1:18 is inaccurate?

“But to us who are being saved” does not mean a believer is moment by moment obtaining salvation, but the preaching of the “word of the cross” is constantly saving men, while at the same time others are constantly perishing because they consider "the word of the cross foolishness.

It sounds good except that the people he is speaking about are already “in Christ” according to his own words. Im not sure how, apart from your bias of understanding what he is saying that you determine his meaning.
apo:

Where do you stand on “the word of the cross,” Phil?

It is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes - Jews first, then Greeks… :bowdown:
apo:

Why must you conclude that if one’s salvation is complete in Christ (which it is) his future would then be irrelevant.

I meant that ones earthly life is irrelevant relative to salvation…
apo:

You’re right, the test is to be continual, that is, test (examine) yourselves to see if you’re walking according to your faith in Christ. Then he asks, “or do you not recognize this (fact) about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?” The qualifier being, of course, those who pass the test. Those who don’t never had Him.

Well you sort of set up a dichotomy: you say continual testing is appropriate for those who are saved yet you imply that they will never fail the test! That seems silly - what would the purpose of the test be? Paul doesnt seem to be making these distinctions - he is telling everyone to test themselves to see if they have a living faith - and he is talking to those who are “in Christ”.
apo:

Yes, and it’s comments like this that I ask you what your stand is regarding “the word of the cross” in regards to your own sins and salvation.

Ill tell you what - why dont you first answer why Christ said what he said in Matt 6:15 and why forgiveness does not constitute an act of faith first. You always ignore the discussion of this verse and opt to discuss my salvation instead. I appreciate the concern, but honestly, what do you do with this verse?
apo:

I fully agree. But according to the Scriptures salvation itself hinges not on our “acts of faith,” but a passive faith in what Christ did for us on the cross: “The word of the cross” - tragically, to most men (even religious men) it’s foolishness.

Let’s hold that thought up to Scripture:

“If a man has faith but has not works, will that faith save him?”
“Faith, if it is not accompanied by works is dead”
It doesnt work apo. Faith is completed by works - thats what Scripture says. That doesnt mean salvation is by works, because it isnt. It is by Grace, through faith.