HELP! Does Romans 4 preach sola fide?

[JOE_OBERR]

The only way to know what the gospel is as preached by St Paul et al is to look at Catholic Apostolic Tradition, i.e., what the apostles believed and taught and practiced. One can find this in the Roman Catechism, the Baltimore Cathechism and the new Catechism. This gospel is not a “religion of the book” but is a religion of the “Word of God, not a written and mute word, but incarnate and living” and is transmitted by the Magisterium from generation to generation.

One can also look at the early christians who were taught by the apostles to get a glimpse as to what the content of the gospel is. The doctrine these writers reflect in their writings correspond to the doctrine of only one Church today - the Catholic Church.

All of the bible christians, and those of the second, third and fourth centuries, believed in purgatory, praying to the saints in heaven, honoring Mary, celebrating Mass, the need for baptism, the ordained priesthood, honoring and obeying St Peter’s successor, mortal sin, etc.

Then in 390 or so the bible, which is a narrative of salvation history, i.e., how God has intervened in history to save mankind, was defined. The bible is a narrative of salvation history, it is NOT a catechism. That’s why the Church periodically publishes catechisms, so people will know what the basic content of the gospel as preached by the apostles (of course doctrine has developed so not everything in the new catechism was preached by St. Paul, e.g. invitro fertilization, but it follows from the basics).

Even M. Luther believed the above paragraph as he wrote two catechisms - the small and the large. So if one wants to know what the gospel is read the above three catechisms. To try to figure it out from scriptural exegesis is an exercise in futility as Jesus did not say to read the bible to get the gospel but to listen to his Church, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Reading the bible can be enriching and uplifting, but one must know how the Church wants us to use it in order for it to be profitable. One can read & learn from the bible salvation history, the life of the early Church, the life of Jesus, how he acted, how he related to people and how he challenged them. But to use it to determine what the gospel is and what doctrine is violating a basic teaching of Jesus and the gospel which is that one should listen to the Church, not his/her own personal guesswork on bible verses.

 

[Pax]

Apophasis,

You never cease to amaze me. Rather than paying attention to the point I rendered, you instead take off in another direction to attack a straw man. Deflecting the argument by arguing against something else simply doesn’t work. I have never claimed that Christ went to the cross for donkeys. I have never claimed that Balaam’s donkey was regenerated by the Spirit. Why do you argue this way?

The point I made is that we cannot take the credit or glory for the works we do by way of grace anymore than Balaam’s donkey can take the glory and credit for having spoken with Balaam and having seen the angel. There is no works righteousness on our part, and that is the extent of the point I made and you should simply take it as given.

I have never claimed that you believe that the Christian will never do good works, and I don’t believe that anyone else has either. The problem is that you fail to accept the clear words and meaning of scripture from Eph 2:8-10. All three verses pertain to our justification. We all agree with you, and we have stated it numerous times, that our initial justification is by way of God’s grace as a free and unearned gift.

You refuse, however, to see the whole package of justification which includes being made a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand. You seem to want to separate the elements of justification and this is an error. I’ll give you some more scripture that shows you the relationship of God’s grace in the Christian walk and why we do not take credit or glory for the works done in righteousness.

Phil 1:27-28 (NSRV) says:
Only live your life in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that, whether I come and see you or am absent and hear about you, I will know that you are standing firm in one spirit, striving side by side with one mind for the faith of the gospel, and are in no way intimidated by your opponents. For them this is evidence of their destruction, but of your salvation.** And this is God’s doing. **

Phil 2:12-13
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

You do not appreciate the power of God’s grace as it relates to God’s purpose to “conform us to the image of his son.”

You do not appreciate the fact that we are to be conformed to the image of Jesus “in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.”

You do not appreciate the fact that we are not simply declared righteous but that we are made righteous and holy because nothing unclean will enter heaven.

You cannot appreciate the fact that faith and trust are **not **simply one dimensional. They are both gift and a work by way of grace. Scripture makes this totally clear as does simple linguistics and logic.

No one claims that we could get up on the cross with Jesus and participate in his death in that sense. That is pure sophistry and a strawman argument. You have pit Jesus work on the cross against the Christian being created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God prepared beforehand. This is absurd. We have a participation on many different levels. God wants us to participate in salvation through his grace.

For example:

Luke 9:23-24
And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake, he will save it.

Col 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

Rom 6:16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

2Cor 1:6
If we are being afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation;

Eph 4:29
Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for edifying, as fits the occasion, that it may impart grace to those who hear.

I can give many more passages to support the view that we participate in different ways and on different levels as part of God’s plan of salvation and “none of these things detract from the work of Christ on the cross.” They are all part of the fruit of Christ’s work and it is by the merits of his redemptive work that we are given the grace to participate.

 

[apophasis]

Clarifying my last statement. What we know is that God is a Holy and Perfect God. We are not. We are God’s creation and He wants us to spend an eternity with Him. We are not able to do that in our present state.

Enter: God’ plan of redemption - the cross of Christ

THAT is what would compromise His honor and holiness.

Hence, “the word of the cross” taken to the world to be believed, for His work of redemption to be applied, in full, at the time of personal belief.

The question here is the process by which that is done. The Catholic Church would say that our justification is a literal making holy and being made right which starts here in our Christian life and is perfected in Heaven.

I would say that this is not the question, but that Catholic soteriology, in unbelief, questions Paul’s clear, unambiguous teachings on the fact that the believer “has been justified” before God through faith in Christ alone. Clearly taught even in the chapter of Romans the O.P. cites: Rom. 4.

Neither Paul, or any of the N.T. writers, present divine justification as a “process,” but instead a sovereign, righteous, declarative act of God, toward the one who has faith in Jesus:Rom 3:26 "…for the demonstration, {I say,} of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.Now, as Paul is careful to point out, the faith by which God justifies the “ungodly” (Rom. 4:5) is in Christ alone (through “the word of the cross”). It is not a process but a GIFT:Rom 3:23 “…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;”

Rom 5:1-2 "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God (how?) through our Lord Jesus Christ through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.Rome cannot accept this Apostolic teaching that a believer is forever justified before God simply because God reckons it (his faith) to him as righteousness (Rom. 4:4-6). So Rome (not Scripture) attaches to it the word “initial,” and teaches justification to be a precarious process, divinely and finally determined only at the end of one’s life (although you claim justification is even yet “perfected in heaven”).

justification is a literal making holy and being made right which starts here in our Christian life and is perfected in Heaven

Divine justification does not make one holy (that’s “sanctification,”), but forever places the believer in a position of right standing before God.

The Reformed/Protestant position would be that our unrighteousness is “cloaked” or covered until we are with Christ. This is the difference.

I don’t argue from a “Reformed” or “Protestant” position, but Biblical. According to Scripture, the grounds on which God reckons a believer righteous (justified) is that he is no longer “in Adam,” but now “in Christ.” It has nothing to to with being “with Christ,” but being "in Christ. In fact, the guarantee that the believer will be “with” Christ is the fact that he is now “in” Christ:Rom 5:19 “For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.”

Rom 8:1 "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."God sees all true believers as no longer in Adam, but “in Christ,” made righteous. Not cloaking his unrighteousness, as you say, but imputed/possessing the righteousness of Christ Himself. Hence, now being "in Christ,"he will not be, nor cannot be, made any more righteous, or justified, at the end of his life (or in heaven) than when he first believed, this side of glory.

Divine righteousness/justification is not a process, but a divinely revealed, state of being of the believer, now and for all eternity. A “God-breathed” truth which Rome still refuses to accept. Why?

As for Rom. 3:28, you’ll find your answer not in a translation, but try looking in an Interlinear Greek-English New Testament. You’ll see there’s no definite article and should be translated “law,” not “Law.” The NASB does make this known in the margin.

 

[apophasis]

Apophasis,

You never cease to amaze me. Rather than paying attention to the point I rendered, you instead take off in another direction to attack a straw man. Deflecting the argument by arguing against something else simply doesn’t work. I have never claimed that Christ went to the cross for donkeys. I have never claimed that Balaam’s donkey was regenerated by the Spirit. Why do you argue this way?

Because you cannot draw a parallel between that which happened to Balaam’s donkey for an instant, to that which God does for the believer, now in Christ, for all eternity. The true believer, as Paul reveals, is a whole new creation (2 Cor. 5:17), created in Christ Jesus FOR good works (Eph. 2:10). But he is saved by grace through faith in Christ alone (Eph. 2:8-9).

You cannot rightly compare the works the believer accomplishes, being now a new creation in Christ, to Balaam’s talking donkey. Unless you’re claiming Balaam’s donkey talked because it was Holy Spirit regenerated and had become a whole new creation in Christ. Only then can you, perhaps, draw a parallel. But then, of course, there would be many other theological complications. The works a believer accomplishes in Christ are not direct miracles performed by God, but the result of being a new creation in Christ.

 

[Pax]

Because you cannot draw a parallel between that which happened to Balaam’s donkey for an instant, to that which God does for the believer, now in Christ, for all eternity. The true believer, as Paul reveals, is a whole new creation (2 Cor. 5:17), created in Christ Jesus FOR good works (Eph. 2:10). But he is saved by grace through faith in Christ alone (Eph. 2:8-9).

You cannot rightly compare the works the believer accomplishes, being now a new creation in Christ, to Balaam’s talking donkey. Unless you’re claiming Balaam’s donkey talked because it was Holy Spirit regenerated and had become a whole new creation in Christ. Only then can you, perhaps, draw a parallel. But then, of course, there would be many other theological complications. The works a believer accomplishes in Christ are not direct miracles performed by God, but the result of being a new creation in Christ.

Please go back and read my original post on this issue again. The parallel that I made is sound. The parallel is not designed to be congruent in all of its details and I made certain qualifications concerning it which you seem to overlook. You do this as a matter of convenience for your argumentation. Please stop being unreasonable. I mentioned a few things in my original post about the “nature” of inanimate objects, living things, and ultimately human beings. These things present the kinds of qualifiers necessary to appreciate the limits of the parallel and the purpose of my point.

Your current argument is another diversion and straw man. I have not claimed that our works accomplished in Christ are miraculous in the same way that the speech uttered by Balaam’s donkey was miraculous. My point was and remains simply that:

1. The donkey did something that was above its nature.
2. This was accomplished by the power of God.
3. The donkey can’t take credit or glory for having spoken or having seen the angel.
4. The Christian when regenerated no longer functions as a natural man but as a spiritual man. The Christian can avoid sin, and can do works pleasing to God.
5. This is all accomplished by the power of God’s grace.
6. Like Baalam’s donkey, the Christian cannot take credit or the glory for any of this.

Obviously, the nature of man and the nature of a donkey are different and I pointed this out in my original post on the subject. God will therefore deal with us in ways that are different from the rest of creation. That having been repeated you should now be able to appreciate the point and you should be able to avoid posing straw man arguments that are of no consequence in the discussion.

If you can find an untruth in my items # 1 through # 6 please point it out.

 

[DARichards]

Enter: God’ plan of redemption - the cross of ChristHence, “the word of the cross” taken to the world to be believed, for His work of redemption to be applied, in full, at the time of personal belief.I would say that this is not the question, but that Catholic soteriology, in unbelief, questions Paul’s clear, unambiguous teachings on the fact that the believer “has been justified” before God through faith in Christ alone. Clearly taught even in the chapter of Romans the O.P. cites: Rom. 4.

Apophasis,

We have geen going about this for about a week now, so we need to take a moment to make sure that you and I are on the same page when we define the word “faith” and “justification”. After that, then I think you will find what the Church defined in the Council of Trent quite interesting.

Faith is more than just a mental assent or agreement. This is what the danger is in saying that we are justified by “faith alone”. In this sense, faith could also be substituted with the word belief.
Just believing in Jesus doesn’t justify you. This is what James was speaking of in James 2. This is what is meant by James 2:24 “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” (Which by the way, you have yet to explain how this verse, and the entire chapter squares with your version of justification…)

If by faith then you mean a “fully formed” faith which causes true repentance, a change of your heart to God, and a desire and a will to follow His commandments and laws, then I would agree that we are justified by our faith. Having said this, our justification, just as I explained with the example of Abraham is an ongoing process. Abraham (as pointed out in Hebrew 11:8), was justified by his faith when he left Haran. He was again justified several year later in Genesis 15:6 when he believed God. He again was justified (James 2) when he placed Isaac on the altar. When God speaks, His words have power. They are creative forces. When God declares us righteous, by the very nature of His words, they have action and they make us literally righteous. Our justification cannot be p(name removed by moderator)ointed to a single point in time, but is continual, as was the case with Abraham thoroughout our Christian life. ** If this justification that you speak of was a one-time, permanant, finalized action, then how do you reconcile Hebrews 6, when the writer (we assume Paul) warns against apostacy? Are you saying then that these people who were apostate never were justified in the first place, or are you saying that even though they were justified that God will look over their apostacy? Those are the only two choices that you have**.

What about justification? Justification is defined as: “the translation , from that state where in man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation , since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire of, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.” (CT 6.4)

In addition,*** this justification"…is to be derived from the …grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on thier parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace…God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God to move himself into justice in His si***ght. (C.T. 6.5)**

 

[DARichards]

I don’t argue from a “Reformed” or “Protestant” position, but Biblical.

According to Scripture…Honestly, it doesn’t matter how many verses out of Romans that you quote, you are misinterpreting the context and the spirit of the letter. You are continuing to take the Epistle at face value without taking into consideration context, history, or the reason it was written. Once again, Romans was written because the early Christians (who were Jews) were having a hard time separating themselves from the obglitatory sacrifices and regulations of the OT. These were powerless to do what God wanted done. This was why Paul wrote Romans. To say otherwise is to ignore the obedience that Christ commanded in the Gospels and what was written in the other Epistles. In addition, what guarantee (1oo% guarantee) do you have that what you are teaching and professing is the absolute truth, no questions, no qualms? How do you know that you are properly carrying forth the intention that Paul and the other writers of the Gospel had in mind when they wrote the Gospels? The fact is that you have no guarantee. All you have is how you interpret it.

Divine righteousness/justification is not a process, but a divinely revealed, state of being of the believer, now and for all eternity.

Huh, that’s quite facinating. I have never read that anywhere. Can you give me a chapter and verse…? What I have read is the following in regard to our justification being a** past event**:

Romans 8:24
For in hope we were saved.

Eph. 2:5-8
even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ
5 (by grace you have been saved),
6 raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
9it is not from works, so no one may boast.
10For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the**** good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them****

And the Present State of our Justification…
I Cor 1:18
18 The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are ***being saved ***it is the power of God

II Cor 2:15
15 For we are the aroma of Christ for God among those ***who are being saved ***and among those who are perishing,

Phil. 2:12
12 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling( I hate it when than “work” word just pops up

I Peter 1:8-9
8 Although you have not seen him you love him; even though you do not see him now yet believe in him, you rejoice with an indescribable and glorious joy,
9 as you attain the goal of (your) faith, the salvation of your souls.

Where do these say that our justification is finished, one time for all??? Please show me…

Oh yes, and I know that we will finally be justified as well

Romans 13:11
11 And do this because you know the time; it is the hour now for you to awake from sleep.*** For our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed***

Romans 5:9-10

9 How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath.
10 Indeed, if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, ***once reconciled, will we be saved by his life. ***

1Cor 3:12-15

12 If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,
13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work.
14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
15 But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire

 

[DARichards]

As for Rom. 3:28, you’ll find your answer not in a translation, but try looking in an Interlinear Greek-English New Testament. You’ll see there’s no definite article and should be translated “law,” not “Law.” The NASB does make this known in the margin.

Boy, I am sure that there are many, many Christians who will be very pleased to know that they will need a Greek/English Interlinear New Testament to find the true meaning of this verse. I am also very pleased that *you * have found yourself a better translation expert than all of the ones who put together the NIV, KJV, NKJV, NAS, NASB, RSV, and the French version I threw in there. All of them include the definite article “the” because that was the intent and the subject matter of Romans. It was not about works, but about “the Law”, the “Torah”.

 

[apophasis]

According to Scripture…Honestly, it doesn’t matter how many verses out of Romans that you quote, you are misinterpreting the context and the spirit of the letter. You are continuing to take the Epistle at face value without taking into consideration context, history, or the reason it was written. Once again, Romans was written because the early Christians (who were Jews) were having a hard time separating themselves from the obglitatory sacrifices and regulations of the OT. These were powerless to do what God wanted done. This was why Paul wrote Romans.

Romans was written to the church at Rome which was primarily GENTILE. And Paul is not addressing Judaisers when he writes:Rom 3:21-24 "But now apart from the Law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for ALL those who believe; for there is no distinction; for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;Now of unbelieving Israel Paul writes to the Gentile church of Rome:Rom. 9:30-33 "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at {that} law. Why? Because {they did} not {pursue it} by faith, but as though {it were} by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and he who believes in Him will not be disappointed."Has the Gentile, Roman church now also stumbled over the Stumbling Stone (the simplicity of Christ) and pursued it by works, rather than by faith? Has much of “Christianity” today?

 

[mikeledes]

Romans 2:6 states that God will “render to each one according to his deeds.” The following verse, vs. 7, states:

“Eternal life to those who by patientv continuance in DOING GOOD seek for glory, honor, and immortality.”

Notice it does not say, “Eternal life to those who have faith.” We are initially justified by grace through faith. But as Catholics, we do not believe justification is a once in a lifetime experience. Rather, justification has to be secured and increased through doing good. While a person with faith should do good works as outward manifestations of that faith, it does not follow that a person justified by faith will automatically do good works all the time. Once a person is justified, do they ever fail to do good? Do you become perfect? No! Doing good is an act of the will and so is sin. The same way you can resist the impulse to commit sin, you can also resist the impulse to do good. 2 Peter 1:5 states:

“But also for this very reason , GIVING ALL DILIGENCE, ADD to your faith virtue, to vritue knowledge…”

Peter lists all the things we have to ADD to our faith in order to make our “election secure.” And we have to do this with diligence. What does diligence mean? According to Dictionary.com, diligence means

constant and earnest effort to accomplish what is undertaken; persistent exertion of body or mind.

In other words, Peter is saying that we have to make a constant and earnest EFFORT to add to our faith all of the things listed. Having faith does not automatically mean that a person will continuosly perservere in doing good. If so, then there would be no effort because good works would happen automatically and the justified person would live an effortlessly sinless life. A person who is justified by grace through faith must preserve that justification by continuing to have faith and doing good. If he or she ceases to do good after being justified, then he or she is at risk of losing that grace of justifiction. So Catholics do not believe that the grace of justification is earned through good works. Like I said earlier, if I were to give someone a plant as a free gift, not as a payment for something, that does not mean that the person that I give the plant to has no responsibilities or obligations. That person now has the obligation to preserve that free gift I gave him by watering the plant, putting it in a place where it can get sunlight, etc. Does it cease to be a free gift because the plant is kept alive and grows because of that person’s efforts? No! Similarly, God gives us that grace of justification as a free gift, but it is our responsibility and obligation to preserve and grow in that grace by growing in faith and continuosly doing good. What happens if we are not diligent in doing good works? The same thing that will happen to that plant if the person it was given to as a free gift does not diligently water the plant and keep it in sunlight. Just as the plant dies if it is not fed, we lose the grace of justification if we do not “feed it” with good deeds.

The passage in Romans 4 is specifically talking about how we FIRST enter into a right relationship with God. It is not talking about how we maintain or continue to abide in that saving relationship and grow in it. That part is covered by James 2.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I just want to add that the moment we are first justified we are saved because our sins are forgiven and we are transformed into a new creation. So if we were to die immediately after being justified, we would go to heaven. However, we are saved as long as we continiue in that right relationship with God obtained through justification. We must abide in this relationship with God by following God’s commandments:

John 15:10:

If you keep my commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.

1 John 3:24:

Now he who keeps his commandments abides in Him , and He in him…

What are his commandmetns?

John 3:22:

And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

How do we follow God’s commandment to love our neighbor?

1 John 2:17-18

But whoever has this world’s goods , and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him? My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in DEED and in truth.

We love our neighbor by doing good works! We become a new creation in order to do good works by the mercy and grace of God through the work accomplished by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ on the Cross. Hence, if we fail to fulfill this responsibility and obligation that comes with being a new creation created to do good works, we will be held accountable and risk losing our salvation. For its is by our WORKS that we shall be judged. That is why when the rich young man asked Jesus what good must he do in order to inherit eternal life, Jesus did not correct Him - as a good Protestant would do - by saying that there is no good he can do to inherit eternal life. Nor did he respond by saying, “Have faith.” Rather, he responded by saying, “Keep the commandments.” Once we receive the grace of justification and the gift of faith, we are obligated to respond to our new vocation to live a life of love, love of God and of neighbor.

1 Corinthians 13:2
…and though I have all faith to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

A faith that can move mountains is real faith, as Jesus states in Matthew 17:20. But if this faith is not followed up by love, it will ultimately prove worthless. We have to have a faith working through love. If we fail to diligently add to our faith love - and love, as 1 John 2:17-18 makes clear - is a verb, not simply an emotion, then we risk receiving "the grace of God in vain (2 Corinthians 6:1). And what does it mean to receive the grace of God in vain? The ultimate purpose of grace is eternal life. When this purpose is frustrated by not following God’s command to believe and/or love, then that is when we receive the grace of God in vain. That is why Paul emphasizes in Romans 2: 6-7 that the basis of God’s judgement will be our works, not our faith alone. In other words, God will use our works to determine who will spend eternity with Him and who will spend eternity in Hell. That is why Paul states, in Romans 2:7 that God will give “Eternal life to those who by patient continuance in DOING GOOD seek for glory, honor, and immortality.” Our good works are ultimately the fruits of God’s grace, so he is essentially rewarding His own work. But we have to respond to - and cooperate with - God’s grace. If we fail to respond to our call to live a life of good works after being justified and becoming a new creation, then we will be held accountable.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

If justification is not a process, how is Abraham “justified by works” when he offered Isaac his son on the altar (James 2:21). The sacrifice of Isaac occurred in Genesis 22. However, Paul states that Abraham was justified in Genesis 15, several chapters earlier? We know from the context that James is using the word “justification” the same way Paul is using it. So how is Abraham justified by his works in Genesis 22? If justification was a once in a lifetime experience accomplished through faith alone, then Abraham could not have been justified again in Genesis 22 by faith and works after he was justified by faith in Genesis 15? The only way you can reconcile Paul and James is by seeing justification as a process initiated by grace alone through faith and preserved and increased through good works. Hence, James 2:24, man is “justified by works, and not by faith only.” If the faith referred to in James 2:24 is dead faith, then it would read “man is justified by works, and not by dead faith alone.” So does this mean we need dead faith and works in order to be justified? That makes no sense whatsoever. Tha faith James is referring to is real faith. But if this real faith is not followed up by good works, then this faith fails to bear its ultimate fruit, eternal life, and that is what it is meant by faith without works being dead.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[DARichards]

Romans was written to the church at Rome which was primarily GENTILE. And Paul is not addressing Judaisers when he writes:Rom 3:21-24 "But now apart from the Law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for ALL those who believe; for there is no distinction; for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles and Peter was the Apostle to the Jews. However Romans was written because the Jewish Christians in Rome were trying to impost the OT Laws and ceremonies on the new Gentile Christians. The Old Covenant has been done away with and the requirements of that covenant were powerless to achieve the righteousness before God that He required. Now everyone was on level footing, Jew or Gentile.

Now of unbelieving Israel Paul writes to the Gentile church of Rome:Rom. 9:30-33 "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at {that} law. Why? Because {they did} not {pursue it} by faith, but as though {it were} by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and he who believes in Him will not be disappointed."Has the Gentile, Roman church now also stumbled over the Stumbling Stone (the simplicity of Christ) and pursued it by works, rather than by faith? Has much of “Christianity” today?

Apop, I have given you Scripture after Scripture in regard to the reasons that the Sola Fide theology is not valid. In response, you have ignored the requests that I and others have made for you to square these references with this doctrine that you hold. You are stuck in these verses in Romans without balancing these other verses in other gospels/epistles, even some that were written by Paul. The Gospel is not Pauls Gospel, but the Gospel of our Lord, therefore all Scripture must be read as one, not just a few choice verses. I will continue to discuss this with you as soon as you tell me how verses such as James 2, along with some of the others play into the Sola Fide Theology

 

[apophasis]

Faith is more than just a mental assent or agreement. This is what the danger is in saying that we are justified by “faith alone”. In this sense, faith could also be substituted with the word belief.
Just believing in Jesus doesn’t justify you. This is what James was speaking of in James 2. This is what is meant by James 2:24 “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” (Which by the way, you have yet to explain how this verse, and the entire chapter squares with your version of justification…)

I addressed James 2 in a previous message: see Post # 52. In fact, I have been gracious enough to address for you, again, points that have already been discussed on this thread.

I agree that faith is not simply a “mental assent or agreement.” But the faith by which God justifies the UNGODLY is a personal faith that causes the believer to trust/rest in the finished, redemptive WORK of Christ on his behalf. In other words, in the work of Someone else - not himself. And it is this abiding, trusting faith in Christ that God recognizes and reckons the believer justified.

If by faith then you mean a “fully formed” faith which causes true repentance, a change of your heart to God, and a desire and a will to follow His commandments and laws, then I would agree that we are justified by our faith.

You’re not agreeing to anything of the sort, but instead preaching a “gospel” of works. In other words, you’re claiming that one’s justification must itself be justified, and that through a life time of works.

But let me ask you, to whom are you proving your “mature faith” by said works? God? Do you wonder, as does “Philthy,” if God needs proof of faith via demonstration? Is the God of the Bible then imperfect? Would He even be “God” if He needs to acquire certain knowledge about you?

Based on what you say above, God can only reckon one righteous after a life time of demonstrable service to Him, thereby proving one’s genuine faith. Right? And for this reason the RC adds the word “initial” to justificaton. God must wait to see the works you perform throughout your life before He can officially justify you. Translation: Justification by works.

But based on my studies of the Scriptures, the God of the Bible is truly omniscient. He knows the heart of men, He knows genuine faith.2 Tim. 2:19 "Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His…"Doesn’t sound to me like the Lord lacks knowledge. I’m sure He’s quite capable of justifying only those whose faith is genuine. The God of the Bible knows far more than you give Him credit for.

You said in another post that the Gospel is not Paul’s. Please consider:Rom. 2:16 "…on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Rom. 16:25 "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,"Paul was given special insight into the gospel of Jesus Christ with which he was entrusted. And much of it was written to the church at Rome, now called the Book of Romans. In it he clearly reveals divine justification by faith in Christ alone.

 

[apophasis]

Please go back and read my original post on this issue again. The parallel that I made is sound. The parallel is not designed to be congruent in all of its details and I made certain qualifications concerning it which you seem to overlook. You do this as a matter of convenience for your argumentation. Please stop being unreasonable. I mentioned a few things in my original post about the “nature” of inanimate objects, living things, and ultimately human beings. These things present the kinds of qualifiers necessary to appreciate the limits of the parallel and the purpose of my point.

Your current argument is another diversion and straw man. I have not claimed that our works accomplished in Christ are miraculous in the same way that the speech uttered by Balaam’s donkey was miraculous. My point was and remains simply that:

1. The donkey did something that was above its nature.
2. This was accomplished by the power of God.
3. The donkey can’t take credit or glory for having spoken or having seen the angel.
4. The Christian when regenerated no longer functions as a natural man but as a spiritual man. The Christian can avoid sin, and can do works pleasing to God.
5. This is all accomplished by the power of God’s grace.
6. Like Baalam’s donkey, the Christian cannot take credit or the glory for any of this.

Obviously, the nature of man and the nature of a donkey are different and I pointed this out in my original post on the subject. God will therefore deal with us in ways that are different from the rest of creation. That having been repeated you should now be able to appreciate the point and you should be able to avoid posing straw man arguments that are of no consequence in the discussion.

If you can find an untruth in my items # 1 through # 6 please point it out.

Pax, Balaam’s donkey and the believer have only one thing in common. Both are recipients of a divine miracle. The miracle for the believer is that he is now “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works” (Eph. 2:10). He was saved by grace through faith in Christ alone (Eph. 2:8-9), and then by the direct creative act of God, created in Christ Jesus, the “Last Adam” for the purpose of “good works.”

So yes, he is given “credit” for those good works. In fact Paul specifically points this out in 1 Cor. 3 where he says the Christian worker will receive his own reward for his own labor (in Christ, vs. 8). In fact, his works will be evaluated at the judgment seat of Christ, and based on their value (vs. 12) he will be rewarded accordingly (vs. 14).

Now it is true that no believer will* boast* that he “deserves” the reward, because none can do any good works until Christ Himself first did it all. This is called divine GRACE (unmerited favor). God first saved the one now “created in Christ Jesus” by grace through faith in Chist alone. The works that follow have nothing to do with God saving him.

 

[mikeledes]

God does not wait for you to complete a lifetime of works in order to justify you. You are justified by grace through faith. However, this justification is not a once in a lifetime experience. It must be maintained throughout your lifetime by living a life of active faith and love. If you chose not to do so, then the justification will be lost.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Pax]

Pax, Balaam’s donkey and the believer have only one thing in common. Both are recipients of a divine miracle. The miracle for the believer is that he is now “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works” (Eph. 2:10). He was saved by grace through faith in Christ alone (Eph. 2:8-9), and then by the direct creative act of God, created in Christ Jesus, the “Last Adam” for the purpose of “good works.”

So yes, he is given “credit” for those good works. In fact Paul specifically points this out in 1 Cor. 3 where he says the Christian worker will receive his own reward for his own labor (in Christ, vs. 8). In fact, his works will be evaluated at the judgment seat of Christ, and based on their value (vs. 12) he will be rewarded accordingly (vs. 14).

Now it is true that no believer will* boast* that he “deserves” the reward, because none can do any good works until Christ Himself first did it all. This is called divine GRACE (unmerited favor). God first saved the one now “created in Christ Jesus” by grace through faith in Chist alone. The works that follow have nothing to do with God saving him.

It would appear that you are getting closer to agreeing with my point which is a positive sign. Your last sentence is, however, completely off base. Verse 10 of Eph 2:8-10 is part of justification and being a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand. We are God’s workmanship. This has plenty to do with salvation.

By our nature, which is different from that of a donkey, we are created in the image and likeness of God. We have intellect and free will. By way of the fall we are severely damaged and it is by way of God’s grace that we are redeemed and made a “new creation in Christ Jesus.” God’s purpose for calling us is perfectly summarized in Romans 8:29. God’s purpose is that we “be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.”

This conforming is not accomplished once and for all at the time of our first coming to faith and justification. That is why we are to be sanctified over the remaining course of our lives. Sanctification is essential to salvation as evidenced by the following verses.

Heb 13:12
Therefore Jesus also suffered outside the city gate in order to sanctify the people by his own blood.

Acts 20:32
And now I commend you to God and to the message of his grace, a message that is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all who are sanctified.

1Cor 1:2
To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

Rom 6:22
But now that you have been freed from sin and enslaved to God, the advantage you get is sanctification. The end is eternal life.

Heb 2:11
For the one who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one Father. For this reason Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters,

HEB 10:9
And it is by God’s will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

1Peter 1:2
who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:

2 Thess 2:13
But we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

Justification, sanctification, and works are all inextricably linked as part of salvation. They are all by grace by way of the merits of Jesus sacrifice on the cross.

God worked a miracle in the donkey that did not make the donkey a redeemed human being that is a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works. God did, however, work a miracle in the Christian that is in keeping with the nature of man’s intellect and free will as part of the plan of salvation. We come to know God by grace and faith. We freely choose God or choose ourselves over God. Just like Adam we are created in the image and likeness of God and like Adam we can also turn from God. We can even do this after we have been justified. We are regenerated by the Spirit and we are to live in the Spirit by God’s grace to do the good works that God prepared beforehand. If we freely accept the grace of God and believe we must also accept God’s grace and freely be his workmanship. If we do not have the Spirit leading us then we are set on the flesh and we will perish.

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

cont. from prior post

Paul puts it rather well in Romans 8:2-13 when he says:

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you. So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.

 

[apophasis]

God does not wait for you to complete a lifetime of works in order to justify you. You are justified by grace through faith. However, this justification is not a once in a lifetime experience. ** It must be maintained throughout your lifetime by living a life of active faith and love. If you chose not to do so, then the justification will be lost**.

God Bless,
Michael

In other words, a justification based on a life time on probation and, ultimately, sealed by your own works. Have you read Romans 4?

 

[apophasis]

It would appear that you are getting closer to agreeing with my point which is a positive sign. Your last sentence is, however, completely off base. Verse 10 of Eph 2:8-10 is part of justification and being a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand.

No, Pax, divine justification is solely an act of God. Both salvation and justification are *gifts *of God apart from any works whatsoever (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 3:24). It is those whom God gifted salvation and justification (as well as eternal life, Rom. 6:23) that He creates new “in Christ.”

We are God’s workmanship. This has plenty to do with salvation.

Only in that the SAVED “by grace through FAITH,” are now created in Christ Jesus for good works. But it is not the works, or the new creation, that saves or justifies.

By our nature, which is different from that of a donkey, we are created in the image and likeness of God.

Adam was “created” in God’s image, but you and I are BORN. We were born in Adam’s likeness (fatally fallen), not God’s.Gen 5:3 "When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of {a son} in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth.

By way of the fall we are severely damaged

This is where you part with Scripture. The Fall didn’t merely cause “severe damage” to Adam’s race, it was in fact fatal. And for this reason man needed divine redemption and to be “born again” from above, and these through the death and shed blood of Christ.

Pax, because you fail to accept that the Fall was fatal, you refuse to accept Paul’s teachings on salvation and justification.

God’s purpose for calling us is perfectly summarized in Romans 8:29. God’s purpose is that we “be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.”

This is describing those who are already “saved” by grace through faith, “born again” and divinely “justified.” And these he will also glorify (8:30; cf. 1 John 3:2).

This conforming is not accomplished once and for all at the time of our first coming to faith and justification.

Absolutely. But this conformation has nothing to do with God gifting the believer salvation and justification.

That is why we are to be sanctified over the remaining course of our lives. Sanctification is essential to salvation as evidenced by the following verses.

Exeriential SANCTIFICATION is not salvation, nor is it justification. They are theologically distinct. This is where a lot of your confusion lies, Pax, and that of your church, as well.