Help, I'm thinking about leaving the Church

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

Am I or am I not ?

Go to your priest and talk to him about your sins, not me.

Not me and not anyone else. Nemo censetur ignorare legem is a well known principle in criminal law. You might be a illiterate homeless, it does not excuse you in the slightest.

But this is moral law we are talking about, is it not ?

And you think criminal law is not based on moral law?

I don’t know. Will I ?

And now you are asking me about what will happen to you on Judgement Day?

I cannot judge you, Erethorn, only God can. Please go to your priest.

Please try. Thank you.

The part I highlighted in your post cannot but raise, in my head, the question of evil. But I don’t want to derail the discussion, though that in itself is another unresolved problem I have.

OK let us not. But I will say this, in brief: because we want the evil, not God.

I don’t know what drove you to the conclusion that a father who ends up in hell will necesarilly hate his son should he happen to end up in Heaven, but, that aside, someone hating me does not necesarilly stop me from loving them.

Well, sorry, I was wrong: someone in hell could STILL love those he loved before. See Jesus’ parable about Lazarus and the rich man.

Your whole line of reasoning sems to follow the “Divine Mercy” paradigm, where basically everyone gets a last chance and only those who are truly evil and wicked and want no part in Heaven and hate God and so on (which is to say - almost nobody) go to hell. That resonates well with me.

However, might I remind you that there are other paradigms within catholicism. At Fatima, we were told that Hell is quite full.

Well first of all, not EVERYBODY gets a last chance. How many people have died so suddenly they didn’t even know they died?

Couple that with that peculiar human quirk of holding everything til the last minute…

I would really like it, however, if you could somehow manage to answer my question with a simple yes or no. Would you be happy in Heaven, allthewhile knowing that someone you loved on Earth is now suffering eternal torment for failing to go to Mass ?

Yes, for God said so. How? I do not know, I’d leave that to God.

Mind you, in your counter question you explicitly stated that God’s love for the sinner still exists and He still is in pain because the hell dwellers suffer. What makes you think that your own love for your father would cease to exist ?

No I do not think my love for my father, if he goes to hell and me in heaven, will cease to exist. If the rich man still cares for his own friends and kin in Jesus’ parable, then why wouldn’t I when I am in heaven?

AND yet in spite of that, God, through the Catholic Church, says I will be happy. How? I do not know, I leave that to God.

God love you.

 

[Erethorn]

Well, sorry, I was wrong: someone in hell could STILL love those he loved before. See Jesus’ parable about Lazarus and the rich man.

No I do not think my love for my father, if he goes to hell and me in heaven, will cease to exist. If the rich man still cares for his own friends and kin in Jesus’ parable, then why wouldn’t I when I am in heaven?

So you might still love them, and they might still love you. But they are burning, while you are led to “green pastures”

AND yet in spite of that, God, through the Catholic Church, says I will be happy. How? I do not know, I leave that to God.

God love you.

I cannot wrap my head around that. As I’ve said before, it sounds grotesque to me.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

So you might still love them, and they might still love you. But they are burning, while you are led to “green pastures”

I cannot wrap my head around that. As I’ve said before, it sounds grotesque to me.

Erethorn, Faith is a grace from God, of course you cannot wrap your head around it by yourself! Remember that Understanding is one of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit; therefore, ask it from Him.

Give Him a chance, please.

God love you.

 

[Erethorn]

+JMJ+

Erethorn, Faith is a grace from God, of course you cannot wrap your head around it by yourself! Remember that Understanding is one of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit; therefore, ask it from Him.

God love you.

You don’t get it. The ideea that one would be happy while his loved ones suffer for all eternity is something I find repulsive and perverse, and I do not want to understand it.

“Understanding” a perversion would mean to pervert myself. If I was to ask the Holy Spirit anything, it would be to reveal to me that the Church is wrong in it’s teachings about infinite punishment for a finite fault.

I’m very sorry for the harsh language, but I’m just being honest.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

You don’t get it. The ideea that one would be happy while his loved ones suffer for all eternity is something I find repulsive and perverse, and I do not want to understand it.

“Understanding” a perversion would mean to pervert myself. If I was to ask the Holy Spirit anything, it would be to reveal to me that the Church is wrong in it’s teachings about infinite punishment for a finite fault.

I’m very sorry for the harsh language, but I’m just being honest.

Erethorn, have you not read your own post and realized the great irony? You are a lawyer, trained to learn, defend, and uphold the truth. In the pursuit of that, you are taught that ALL of the angles of the truth should be explored. And now, against your own training, you prevent yourself from learning the side of the truth from one of the most important sides: the accused’s.

Is that how lawyers are right now?

But anyways, DO IT. Ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to you the “errors” of the Catholic Church. You might be surprised.

God love you.

 

[Erethorn]

Erethorn, have you not read your own post and realized the great irony? You are a lawyer, trained to learn, defend, and uphold the truth. In the pursuit of that, you are taught that ALL of the angles of the truth should be explored. And now, against your own training, you prevent yourself from learning the side of the truth from one of the most important sides: the accused’s.

That’s what I am doing right here and now, that’s why I started this thread, because I’m looking for answers.

On the other hand, I am not here as a lawyer, but a a troubled soul who sees the edifice of his faith crumbling. The tought of eternal punishment for other people, and most of all, for those whom I love) is no longer (and I don’t really know if it ever was) compatible with my soul.

I am listening to the other side’s arguments, and do my best to try to understand them, but I don’t think it’s morally correct to expect me to also accept them as the Truth, in spite of what my heart tells me.

By the way, I am perfectly capable of logically understanding your responses to my question - whether the response is “I don’t know how, I leave it to God”, or “My will shall be united with God’s will” or anything of the sort.

When I said I don’t want to understand such an ideea, what I meant was that I do not want to internalize it emotionally, because it would probably cause a fracture inside me. If I can imagine myself being happy while my father burns, in the afterlife, I fear it would twist something in me now.

Is that how lawyers are right now?

If it puts your mind at ease, learn that I am not a lawyer in America (I thought it would be obvious from my lack of spelling skills), so you are free of any potential professional missconduct of mine, unless you shall happen to come to my country and need legal assistance, in which case I would be happy to direct you to some of my more orthodox coleagues.

But anyways, DO IT. Ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to you the “errors” of the Catholic Church. You might be surprised.

And if I were to tell you that the Holy Spirit descended and told me the Catholic Church is mistaken, and that nobody burns in hell forever, would you believe me ? I think we both know the answer to that one, my friend. After all, there’s a lot of people who would tell you that has already happened to them: Orthodox, Protestant, Mormon, JW, not to mention Muslims or Neo-Pagans and so on. If you don’t believe them, why would you believe me ?

God love you.

And you as well.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

You don’t get it. The ideea that one would be happy while his loved ones suffer for all eternity is something I find repulsive and perverse, and I do not want to understand it.

“Understanding” a perversion would mean to pervert myself. If I was to ask the Holy Spirit anything, it would be to reveal to me that the Church is wrong in it’s teachings about infinite punishment for a finite fault.

I’m very sorry for the harsh language, but I’m just being honest.

On the surface it does seem “hard” or “repulsive.” That’s one of the great questions religions try to answer.

However, keep in mind the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

That’s what I am doing right here and now, that’s why I started this thread, because I’m looking for answers.

On the other hand, I am not here as a lawyer, but a a troubled soul who sees the edifice of his faith crumbling. The tought of eternal punishment for other people, and most of all, for those whom I love) is no longer (and I don’t really know if it ever was) compatible with my soul.

I am listening to the other side’s arguments, and do my best to try to understand them, but I don’t think it’s morally correct to expect me to also accept them as the Truth, in spite of what my heart tells me.

If it puts your mind at ease, learn that I am not a lawyer in America (I thought it would be obvious from my lack of spelling skills), so you are free of any potential professional missconduct of mine, unless you shall happen to come to my country and need legal assistance, in which case I would be happy to direct you to some of my more orthodox coleagues.

And if I were to tell you that the Holy Spirit descended and told me the Catholic Church is mistaken, and that nobody burns in hell forever, would you believe me ? I think we both know the answer to that one, my friend. After all, there’s a lot of people who would tell you that has already happened to them: Orthodox, Protestant, Mormon, JW, not to mention Muslims or Neo-Pagans and so on. If you don’t believe them, why would you believe me ?

And you as well.

I am quite short on time now, sorry, so I will leave you these words of wisdom from a faithful Apostle of the Church:

                 I am going to reveal to you the secret of sanctity and happiness. Every day
               for five minutes control your imagination and close your eyes to the things of
               sense and your ears to all the noises of the world in order to enter into yourself.

               Then, in the sanctuary of your baptized soul (which is the temple of the Holy
               Spirit) speak to that Divine Spirit, saying to him:

                 *Oh, Holy Spirit, soul of my soul.  I adore Thee.  Enlighten, guide, strengthen
               and console me.  Tell me what I must do and help me to do it.  I promise to
               submit myself to all that You ask of me and to accept all that You permit
               to happen to me.  Let me only know Your will.*

                 If you do this, your whole life will flow along happily, serenely and full of
               consolation, even in the midst of trials.  Grace will be proportioned to the trial,
               giving you the strength to bear it and you will arrive at the gate of Paradise,
               laden with merit. 

               This submission to the Holy Spirit is the secret of sanctity.
                                    —CARDINAL MERCIER—

God love you.

 

[Erethorn]

On the surface it does seem “hard” or “repulsive.” That’s one of the great questions religions try to answer.

Let me put it this way - it seems hard (to spare the more unkind words) from the surface, from any angle, from any point of view, in any light, and it hints at being just as hard under the surface.

However, keep in mind the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

Is this Catholic doctrine also ?

 

[Carlan]

.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComputerGeek25
However, keep in mind the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

Is this Catholic doctrine also ?

Well, I suppose if you are a so called practicing Catholic , practicing wishy washy adherents to God’s commandments , I say Yes!
Peace, Carlan

 

[jmcrae]

I do not blame the Church, I am merely questioning the justfulnes (is that a word ?) of it’s position. I am wondering whether my own understanding of God as the supreme source of justice is compatible with a teaching that says a good person should go to hell and be tormented for all eternity because he didn’t want to go to church on Sunday.

For what, then, should someone go to Hell? Anything at all?

Going to Church on Sunday is basic. It is the most important thing we do - it is how we love God. Next most important is to love one another - which we do by meeting each other’s needs and being present to one another.

 

[timeandeternity]

Erethorn, google Jimmy Akin’s “The Necessity of Being Catholic.” It is a thorough and very excellent explanation of the the “extra ecclesiam non salus” doctrine taught at the Council of Florence and its relation to “Lumen Gentium” (Vatican II).
I also struggled greatly with this seeming contradiction, and read numerous posts on these forums in which well-intentioned but insufficiently educated people tried to explain Vatican II and the Council of Florence. It was not until I read this piece by Akin–who, by the way, is absolutely one of the best apologists out there–that I gained a better understanding of these teachings and their compatibility.
Please let me know if this helps at all, and God Bless You!

 

[Erethorn]

For what, then, should someone go to Hell? Anything at all?

Going to Church on Sunday is basic. It is the most important thing we do - it is how we love God. Next most important is to love one another - which we do by meeting each other’s needs and being present to one another.

So then, what you’re saying is that my father, my mother and my wife basically deserve to go to hell, for they don’t go to Mass (or Divine Liturgy) ?! Thank you very much. What a display of christian love ! that has helped me a lot, thank you very very much.

If God is real and if he deserves to be loved, He will not send my family to any place even remotely resembling what the Church calls hell. If He does, then He does not deserve my love and I’ll have no part with Him. I will be where my father is and nowhere else.

 

[jmcrae]

So then, what you’re saying is that my father, my mother and my wife basically deserve to go to hell, for they don’t go to Mass (or Divine Liturgy) ?!

If they can’t stand to be in God’s presence for less than one hour a week, then what loving God would force them to endure His presence 24 hours a day, seven days a week, for all of eternity?

Heaven is not a piece of candy that one wins for “being good” - or being family, or being cute, or for generally being polite to most people - it is to be at Sunday Mass or Divine Liturgy for ever and ever and ever and ever.

 

[Magnavox]

From reading through this thread. My fellow Catholic brothers and sisters. You have done a wonderful job explaining the Catholic Church’s teaching and understanding of this.

It is obvious that Erethorn does not care what the Church teaches. He only wants a feel good religion that he and his family can do whatever they want and still go to heaven.

Well Christianity does not work that way. So get over it.

At the end of John chapter 6, Jesus let them walk away. So we too must let Erethorn walk away by his own choosing.

We, as fellow Catholics must say with Peter “To whom shall we go Lord, you have the words of eternal life.”

Erethorn, Repent, be baptized and follow the gospel. If you choose not to do this, adios. Your choice.

 

[Magnavox]

If God is real and if he deserves to be loved, He will not send my family to any place even remotely resembling what the Church calls hell. If He does, then He does not deserve my love and I’ll have no part with Him. I will be where my father is and nowhere else.

You have no understanding of God.

You and NO ONE else deserves Heaven. We all deserve hell. That is why God gave his only Son to die for us. Your family and you are nothing special. You don’t deserve special attention.

Only by the grace of God do we “enter” Heaven. All of us deserve hell, because of our sin.

And one thing…you might end up in hell with your father, but I would be willing to bet you won’t be ‘hanging out’ with him.

 

[Erethorn]

If they can’t stand to be in God’s presence for less than one hour a week, then what loving God would force them to endure His presence 24 hours a day, seven days a week, for all of eternity?

You have no right to make any kind of assumptions about my family and especially about my father.

If you think you are a better man or a better christian than him just because you go to church every Sunday you are sorely mistaken.

Your implication that he “cannot stand to be in God’s presence” is insulting and it tells a lot about what you understand of God. God’s presence is everywhere, He is especially present when one loves and cares for others, be it at church or at home.

You are judging one you do not know nothing about. My father could die any day - he has had three heart surgeries and I wake up every morning, and sometimes during the night, with the dread that he might not have made it through the night. Every time I leave to work I fear that I might see him for the last time, I have nightmares about him dying and when I think the Church says he will go to hell I feel like going insane. And all af his life he has sacrificed everything for my mother and me, and as far as I can remember he never hurt a fly. He does believe in god and has played a role in turning me from an atheist into a christian; he does go to church sometimes but he simply does not believe that he has to go every week. I’m not saying he deserves Heaven, but if your God would send him to hell forever than your “God” is every bit the monster that the militant atheist talk about. The real God cannot be like that.

Magnavox:

You have no understanding of God.

No, you have a twisted understanding of God.

Magnavox:

You and NO ONE else deserves Heaven.

You should have stoped at that, perhaps we could have agreed.

Magnavox:

We all deserve hell. That is why God gave his only Son to die for us. Your family and you are nothing special. You don’t deserve special attention.

If you’re willing to say that YOU deserve hell, go ahead.

If you want to say that about me, go ahead. I pretty much live in hell already, and all the church going and praying has done nothing to solve that.

But if you’re going to say that my father deserves hell, be very very thankful that we are not face to face, because I would kick your teeth in one by one, christian charity or not, so help me God.

 

[mariafransisca2]

Erethorn, do not listen to Magnavox. He is false.

 

[andrew67]

I think bascically we have to look at Jesus as the final judge on all things. Man and church can interpret but only one can judge.

 

[Carlan]

I think basically we have to look at Jesus as the final judge on all things. Man and church can interpret but only one can judge.

There has been good council given throughout this thread, we post in hopes to help the OP. That is the best we can do.
Andrew you are right, in the end God is the one who deeply knows the heart and will judge all of us accordingly. Peace, Carlan