Help, I'm thinking about leaving the Church

[NFrancis]

Okay, I found another thread about the papal bull cantate domino. Apparently it is not infallible. The people who posted on this thread seem to think that cantate domino was not part of the Council of Florence, but was issued while it was taking place.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=134267

I hope this helps you.

 

[fred_conty]

Hi Irishgal,

That was a great story you told. You will do a lot of good with it. Thanks for sharing.​

I believe in the Son even when it isn’t shinning.

 

[fred_conty]

Erethorn’s comment: The Catholic Church infaliblly stated at Constance that Orthodox, being schismatics and not being Catholics, would go to hell.

Hi,
I believe that when our Holy Father was in duscussions with the Orthodox Patriarch, they removed their excommunication from each other that took place centuries earlier. And also the Holy Father stated that people of all Christian faiths are not to be held responsible for the actions of their earlier church members of being formally guilty of heresy and schism.

Since the people of today did not of themselves do this, they cannot be held responsible for what others did before them. And now they live in traditions which they honestly believe is pleasing and right with God.​

In true communion let us gather, may all divisions cease, and in their place be Christ the Lord, Our risen Prince of Peace. Christian hymn

 

[Lui]

Now, how about the Jews, the Muslims, Paris Hilton, Hitler and the man of Papua New Guinea ? All must be saved by Christ, through Christ and in Christ !!! How is it done? Bluntly I dont know and I dont care. It is God’s business and not ours. When you try to get answers without having the capacity to understand you get in deep trouble.

In short: those who dont know that Jesus Christ exists are saved by Him and are in good hands. It’s none of my business to ask Jesus how.

I talked to a priest about this issue. He more or less told me the same in other words. If you’re an atheist, a native of the amazon forest or a Muslim, it doesn’t mean you are automatically going to Hell. They can also be saved. I also told him about people in this forum saying that if a teenage boy is a good Catholic but happens to masturbate once, he will go to Hell unless he confesses. He told me that was utter nonsense. In other words, if you’re a good and faithful Catholic all your life, masturbate, get a heart attack and die while doing it, it doesn’t mean you will go to Hell, to say it bluntly In other words, it’s not like a person like Hitler who confesses at the last minute with go to Heaven while the devote Catholic who sins once but dies before he can confess that sin, will go to Hell.
Maybe the OP should get a Spiritual director.

 

[fred_conty]

Comment by Erethorn:
(About 1 serious sin
So I will spend the time before the end of time wandering why my family burns in hell, but once end of time and Judgement comes, I will be relieved by the answers, and I will be content to say: Burn, mother, burn, father, burn, my wife, burn, burn, my child, burn, God is just and His Church was right, I’ll have a good time up here and it’s fair that you should burn !!!​

Hi Erethorn,

Our first parents commited only 1 serious sin and what happened? Cain? Moses? Judas?

The bible as well as Jesus’ church makes a distinction between sin and deadly sin.

Jesus told us the parable of the 10 virgins who had lighted lamps waiting for the bridegroom to come. Some ran out of oil and had to go to town to buy more. Meantime the bridegroom came and went into the bridechamber. The others came and wanted in but didn’t get in. Moral: the light in the lamp is the light and life of Christ in the soul. When it goes out, we cannot enter the bridegroom’s chamber(heaven). One serious sin blows out the light, other sins after the first one do not blow it out, they only add to the darkness.

Jesus has a special life in a baptised person and is present there out of love.
"He who loves me keeps my commandments.’ This is difficult to do, as was His suspension on the cross was difficult. “No greater love does a man have than to give his life for his friend.” Love is a two way street. Love cannot be forced but can only be given freely. He awaits. Lord teach me that giving is better than receiving. Lord teach me to die to myself so that your seed of life may grow in me. Be patient with me when I fall and help me to rise with your arms lifting me up. Put your flame back in me that I may appreciate you and love you all the more.

 

[fred_conty]

Erethorn’s comments:
Council of Florence:
(noone) can be saved, unless he has REMAINED in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

How can you imagine that one who is charitable, gives alms, fasts, exercises Christian piety and sheds his blood for Christ could also be “deliberately denying the truth” ?! Don’t you see the contradiction in your argument ? And yet the Council of Constance says, with all the infailibility of the Church behind it, that such people will go into everlasting fire, unless the are Catholic.​

Hi Erethorn,
These 2 councils were addressing the issues with the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches in the 15th century.

Florence said unless they REMAINED in unity, “no salvation”, because they were leaving formally,knowingly,willingly.
People in those churches are not leaving formally TODAY since they were never formally in the Catholic Church to begin with.
So logically, “no salvation” does not apply to them. And this is what our former Holy Father was saying, that they are not responsible.

And Constance was addressing the same situation of those who were formally leaving at THAT time.

Now your statement of “how can you imagine one who is charitable… could also be deliberately denying the truth”.

Here is a brief quote from The History of the Catholic Church by Niel Schmandt.
“In the final analysis it was social and cultural rather than religious issues that produced the Schism.” From my limited knowledge of history, it wasn’t so much of “deliberately denying the truth” as it was about the political struggle between east and west, Rome and
Constantinople.​

“Faith is to believe then search, not search then believe.”

 

[Carlan]

Hello Erethorn, I would like to ask you to read over, well, Fred Conty’s post. He got it right! and please consider it well.

Most of us have loved ones in our lives who fall short, we are all sinners, we can’t judge them to hell no matter what they do wrong, we do pray for them fervently though, and trust God’s grace to draw them back to Him. Our Hope, for ourselves and our loved ones because of Jesus and the Resurrection, is in Him!
Peace, Carlan

 

[Warrior1979]

---

Hi Erethorn,
These 2 councils were addressing the issues with the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches in the 15th century.

I this is indeed the case, I’m curious as to what the Jews had to do with this.

 

[tonydavies]

I lived in sin for many many years and now having repented I have returned to the church.
Yet even knowing I was living in sin I wasn’t always able to extract myself from it. Sometimes strength is lacking, or resolve. Sometimes it is just the evil of life overwhelming us and snowing us under.

There are many people in this world who are in much more serious situations than we would ever have to face. Villagers in Africa abducted, their sons taken to fight in rebel armies, and then how do these boys then see their eternal souls before God when forced to kill or be killed. It is an impossible situation that some people have to face in this life.

I do not pretend to even understand mortal sin and God our Fathers judgement of it. Jesus said he does not judge but rather leaves it up to his Father in heaven. I do not try to even attempt to judge a persons soul and situation even if objectively they are in mortal sin, because only the Father can see TRUTH and REALITY since only the Father has a true eye for seeing inside a persons heart.

 

[jmcrae]

When I started looking into Christianity, and exploring different Churches, it was a requisite for me that the True Church should not claim a monopoly on salvation.

It is either true or it is not true. I’m not sure how an individual lay person can “require” something of a 2,000 year old world-wide institution. The Church is not your servant; you are Her servant.

Case in point: there is a certain person I love most dearly. By any measure, that person is a very good, king, gentle and loving man. However, despite being a Catholic, he lives with his spouse without being married in the Church, and he also doesn’t attend Mass.

How God will ultimately judge that person will not be affected by your membership in the Church. None of us can know how God will judge anyone, except for ourselves, and we know, by making an Examination of Conscience, where we stand and whether we need to go to Confession.

Your friend has his own road to walk, and he must walk it in his own way.

The Catholic Church clearly teaches that he will go to hell. This I cannot accept. If, by any chance, I should end up in Heaven, I would never ever be happy there, knowing that said person is in hell.

Not so. Your friend might repent, get his marriage regularized, go to Confession, and start attending Mass every Sunday. Or, he may not have any idea that he has done anything wrong; in that case, God will judge him according to what he knew, or had the opportunity to learn. In any case, leave the judging to God. The Church does not condemn any individual to Hell; all it does is it gives us the tools we need to stay out of Hell. Your friend may or may not choose to make use of those tools, and surely that will be his choice. You won’t be able to force him, anyway.

 

[supertubos]

I talked to a priest about this issue. He more or less told me the same in other words. If you’re an atheist, a native of the amazon forest or a Muslim, it doesn’t mean you are automatically going to Hell. They can also be saved. I also told him about people in this forum saying that if a teenage boy is a good Catholic but happens to masturbate once, he will go to Hell unless he confesses. He told me that was utter nonsense. In other words, if you’re a good and faithful Catholic all your life, masturbate, get a heart attack and die while doing it, it doesn’t mean you will go to Hell, to say it bluntly In other words, it’s not like a person like Hitler who confesses at the last minute with go to Heaven while the devote Catholic who sins once but dies before he can confess that sin, will go to Hell.
Maybe the OP should get a Spiritual director.

The notion of mortal sin was erased and subsitituted but the idea of option to God or option against God. When you go from New York to LA by car, you knw that you go to LA but if you make a dozen mistakes on the roads, and sometimes you are driving to the opposite of LA it does not mean that you are not going to LA. It means you made mistakes that evryone does. Look at the Space Program with so many qualified engineers and the astronauts who died to reach the Moon. You make a mistake, you beat the driving wheel, your wifes beats you in the head, you scold each other and again kiss each other when finally you get into the right road. Now mortal sin (MS)- Confession (CF)-MS-CF-MS-CF you are going from Paradise to Hell and vice versa all the time… When I was a kid I imagined being white and black and white and black, my God…

 

[jmcrae]

I
What’s selfish ? Loving one’s father !!! Wanting to be with him ? Not accepting that a most wonderful man, a most loving father, would go to hell forever, for not atending Mass ?!!

Jesus Himself told us that we must “hate” our mother and father, if they bring us away from the Kingdom of God. We must love God more than we love any human being. You cannot allow your father to pull you out of Heaven.

My father is a far better man than I would ever be. For his part, he respects God and religion, but does not want to go to Mass every Sunday. By the Church’s judgement, that is enough to land him in hell.

1. You have no idea what judgement God will pass on your father at the time of his death.
2. God’s judgement won’t change if you decide to not be Catholic. Look to your own soul - you have no control over anyone else’s. If your father is going to go to Hell, you leaving the Church won’t save him.
3. God knows what He is doing. Your family members are safe in His hands, no matter what happens.

 

[Erethorn]

Jesus Himself told us that we must “hate” our mother and father, if they bring us away from the Kingdom of God. We must love God more than we love any human being. You cannot allow your father to pull you out of Heaven.

I’m sorry, but there is no way for me to accept that. I’m not saying I love God less than I love my family, but I couldn’t ever choose God over my family.

If God decides to punish me for that, there’s nothing I can do about it, but I won’t ever be frightened into leaving my father behind.

1. You have no idea what judgement God will pass on your father at the time of his death.

Actually, I do. The God I love will treat him very well.

However, the God as He is understood and preached by the Catholic Church, might send him to eternal torment. That’s where my problem stems from, because my God and the Churches’ God seem to be different.

1. God’s judgement won’t change if you decide to not be Catholic. Look to your own soul - you have no control over anyone else’s. If your father is going to go to Hell, you leaving the Church won’t save him.

I’m not trying to blackmail God. I’m merely questioning whether the Church has the right teaching about Him.

On the other hand, in the event that the Church is right, and my father will go to hell, then I don’t need Heaven and God anymore.

1. God knows what He is doing. Your family members are safe in His hands, no matter what happens.

Thank you for this comment.

On the other hand, the above arguments are a little moot, for me at least, because the small matter of EENS and Cantate Domino vs. Vatican II has me convinced that the Church is not infailible in her teachings.

 

[mariafransisca2]

Read the Diary of St Faustina Kowalska
saintsbooks.net/books/St.%20Faustina%20Kowalska%20-%20Diary.pdf

And the Autobiography of St. Anthony Mary Claret
saintsbooks.net/books/St.%20Anthony%20Mary%20Claret%20-%20The%20Autobiography%20of.pdf

And listen to Mother Angelica
youtube.com/results?search_query=mother+angelica&aq=f

And after that think twice about leaving the church.

May the merciful Jesus bless you.

You should love God above all things, if you leave the church, you leave heaven as well.

 

[Erethorn]

Read the Diary of St Faustina Kowalska
saintsbooks.net/books/St.%20Faustina%20Kowalska%20-%20Diary.pdf

And the Autobiography of St. Anthony Mary Claret
saintsbooks.net/books/St.%20Anthony%20Mary%20Claret%20-%20The%20Autobiography%20of.pdf

And listen to Mother Angelica
youtube.com/results?search_query=mother+angelica&aq=f

And after that think twice about leaving the church.

May the merciful Jesus bless you.

You should love God above all things, if you leave the church, you leave heaven as well.

I have read the diary of Saint Faustina.

I have opened the link to the diary of St. Anthony and started reading. However, after the first page something already struck me as weird.

The saint describes how, when he was a toddler, he was breast-fed by a wet nurse. One night, when he would normally be in her house, but was not, the house collapsed and the nurse and four other babies died. The saint’s conclusion ? Blessed be God’s providence !
Four infants died.

By the way, this is me saying that, togheter with the points already expressed (Crurch changing doctrine and God’s justice seemingly injust), the problem of evil I never find properly explained by the Church.

Why did 4 infants have to die and how can you thank God for not killing you with them ?

Because if you account for the hand of God being responsible for saving you, influencing events so that you might be spared, you must also account for the same hand bringing down the house on the other people.

 

[fred_conty]

Hi Erethorn,

How many times have I heard on this site about someone begging prayers for their lost loved one. It is a common thing. All of us have someone close to us that sends pangs of sorrow into our heart because of their unreligious condition.

However most try to fix the problem and not fix the blame.

We fix the problem by praying for them and if we remain close to the heart of Jesus our prayer will be more effective.
We pray more and try to make our prayers more sincere and loving.

Being in the state of grace means we are one with Jesus and that is the only way to be if we are to draw any person into the peace of Jesus. The apostles worked miracles in the Acts of the Apostles because they were one with Christ.

Stay with Him. Trust in His love and mercy. He died for all. He only wants what you want. Pray 3 rosarys a day, and pray 3 chaplets of Mercy a day to show Him how much you adore Him and really want this.

Jesus always had compassion when He was in Gallilee. He wept several times openly for people. When He was carring His Cross to his death he sympathized for the women of Jerusalem. Has He changed that much since is Ascension to His Father? He is very understanding. Trust Him and pray and don’t give in to the devil’s best temptation of discouragement.​

“For the sake of Christ, I willingly accept my weaknesses and my trials, for when I am powerless then I am strong.”
Christian hymn.

 

[Erethorn]

However most try to fix the problem and not fix the blame.

Thank you for your words. I still do pray, it’s just that, perhaps, the God I pray to is not the same one as the one the official Church describes.

You see, I am not trying to fix the problem, because I do not believe it to be a problem. Not going to Mass shouldn’t be something that can land you in hell. An eternity of torment for a most good, loving and caring man, because he decided that he doesn’t need to go to Mass every Sunday is not ok with me.

Perhaps I’m wrong and God really does send people to hell for not wanting to go to church.

If that be so, then I’m probably powerless to stop Him, but I won’t have any part in it, either. That is a god I don’t want.

And that’s why I think that the Church must be at least partially wrong, because God cannot be like that.

 

[Nita]

I’m very sorry, but this document does not cite any conditions for it to be true. On the contrary, it very clearly tells us Catholics that those not of catholic faith will go to hell.

My mother, wife and child are Orthodox, therefore schismatics.

**It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims **that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

God has given the gift of infallibility to His Church.
That does not mean however:
a) that the pope and bishops who were instrumental in formulating the doctrine necessarily understood it in the proper way

(Similar to John 11:49-51) But one of them, Ca’iaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all; 11:50 you do not understand that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation should not perish.” 11:51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation,)

b) or that they had the fullness of understanding what all the terms in that doctrine encompassed – understanding that God might grant to His Church at a later date (growth in understanding of a previously declared doctrine).

On the other hand, my father, who is Catholic, will not go to every Sunday Mass, though he knows the Church teaches this to be grave sin. Again, the CCC tels that this is grave matter, mortal sin, therefore, if he should happen to die tomorow, he will go to hell.

We need to forget about judging whether someone will go to heaven or hell. Thank heavens, God is going to do that.

There is no heaven for me without my family. I would rather go to hell with them.

Please examine what those words imply. Do you really love them more than God?

Sorry for my ramblings and thanks to all that answered, but I am VERY troubled.

No need to be sorry; most of us are concerned and very anxious to help anyone who is troubled.
God bless and guide you in your struggle.

 

[Lui]

Like I mentioned before, maybe you should get a spiritual teacher to help you with questions, thoughts and other things that you need an answer for.

 

[mariafransisca2]

Go to confession weekly, have regular confessors (it can be as many as 4 that) you will experience immense joy and peace.

Sometimes we cannot understand fully God’s will, but it will be revealed in eternity

Pray without ceasing. Pray the rosary and divine mercy chaplet.

Sing some love songs for Jesus.

Here are some free catholic songs you can download:

mediafire.com/?c6o9vgx2eynmebt
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mediafire.com/?cb6uz57covsgfen
mediafire.com/?ao19kqoy1reve2r
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mediafire.com/?4ahc6bd2he14ao4
mediafire.com/?j3118dptzct7i1e
mediafire.com/?r6p982fy6i7q5yd
mediafire.com/?0ikea5op3ono0cb
mediafire.com/?crp7401cnbrcam4
mediafire.com/?6st92jnn83np4z4
mediafire.com/?50b7pe3vsilt1qd
mediafire.com/?upo5lkvnsldg81b
mediafire.com/?v1fipsi1qyxx5rc

They are very beautiful