Help in answering a NFP query from the Philipines

[alitaptap]

The problem is the Catholic Bishops’ of the Philippines-Episcopal Commission on Family and Life’s (CBCP-ECFL) asked the public not to support candidates who are promoting the use of birth control. "It would not be morally permissible to vote candidates who support anti-family policies, including reproductive health, or any other moral evil such as abortion, divorce, assisted suicide and euthanasia," the catechism for the 2010 election read. (Constitution of the Philippines is clear on the separation of Church and State but what is happening is the other way around).

Contrary to Church call, survey says that Catholic will vote for candidates who will support RH Bill. All local opinion polls support the RH bill.

78% - in favor of Reproductive Health Bill (advices on artificial contraception)
7% - opposed to the Reproductive Health Bill
15% - undecided

Reproductive age means 15-54 (for men) and 15-49 (women). Samples are 50:50 men and women.

This is a wake-up call. People want to exercise freedom of choice including parenthood and population development.

Please note that religion has important role in the government.

Preamble of Philippine Constitution:

“We, the sovereign Filipino people, imploring the aid of Almighty God, in order to build a just and humane society and establish a Government that shall embody our ideals and aspirations, promote the common good, conserve and develop our patrimony, and secure to ourselves and our posterity the blessings of independence and democracy under the rule of law and a regime of truth, justice, freedom, love, equality, and peace, do ordain and promulgate this Constitution.”

In the Preamble to Constitution we implore the aid of God. At the same time, however, we do not wish government to interfere with religion nor religion to rule government. Balance between church and state must be maintained. As for RH Bill, people need to examine which side of the controversy is being unreasonable. I support a specific provision of RH Bill to provide greater information, education, and support for Filipinos to make an informed (moral) choice regarding their reproductive options. However, there are provisions in the bill against the moral beliefs of some (e.g. artificial contraception). With regard to freedom of choice, the government should not also dictate the “ideal family size”. RH Bill has varied facets. We need a policy that is acceptable to most.

As for casting of votes, people must consider social interest over self-interest and decide guided by moral principles.

 

[sinnerdexter]

The cause of poverty in the Philippines is massive corruption and not too many people. The solution is to stamp out corruption.

The Philippines could have been another South Korea. Matter of fact, world business leaders, in the 70’s, predicted the Philippines to keep pace with South Korea. But with its ever increasing population weight, it just slowed down and down and down. One reason that everybody overlooks the economic effect of rapid population growth is because a higher authority says that it is corruption that causes poverty in the Philippines. But tell me of a country that is devoid of corruption. Even the Vatican is not immune to corruption; it is paying out billions of dollars in settlement payments.

There is no use crying over spilled milk. It is time to think for the Filipinos in the next 30 years because at the Philippine population growth rate of 2.3% a year, Philippine population will double in 2040 while South Korea’s will dip to 43 million because it has the lowest total fertility rate in the world.

Under population is a lot easier to manage and solve than overpopulation in the same way that an under-inflated tire is preferable to an over-inflated tire. When running on a hot road, the under-inflated tire has room for air expansion, the over-inflated tire, not much. They wouldn’t call it, population explosion for nothing.

 

[sinnerdexter]

The Philipines has a GDP of $317 Billion which translates to a per capita GDP of about $1,800/year. - So now the question becomes, who is going to pay for all the BCP’s and Condoms etc needed to control the population?
Are these poor people going to be expected to purchase these things when they are struggling to feed themselves?
Is the government going to do it? Are you saying that the Philipine Government is rolling in so much money that they can afford to supply these things free of charge nationwide? And do this while also trying to supply education and legal support for such a program?

According to the study millions of Filipino including the lower-income bracket spend significant portions of their money in cigarettes, alcohol, gambling (i.e. jueteng), and other similar practices that generally do not lead to improvements in their health and general welfare, therefore they can divert portion of their budget for reproductive materials i.e. condoms.

Who is going to teach the people the proper uses of these items?
Who is going to enforce the use of these items among a population that does not universally accept their use?

Family planning and sex education can be included in the curriculum.

 

[sinnerdexter]

With regard to freedom of choice, the government should not also dictate the “ideal family size”.

Statistics show that people who don’t have the financial means to raise too many children are the ones who produces more. Geee…what’s the point of having too many children when present economic conditions dictate restraint in everything including having too many offsprings. When parents cannot afford to raise these children, whose going to take care of them? Should we rely on the government? The Church? On miracle perhaps? Eventually the responsibility goes back to the parents. Do we start pointing fingers and play the blame game? Where is the parents accountability and their moral obligation to raise their children in a rich and loving environment? Should the government address the problem BEFORE or AFTER the FACT? Which one is easier to solve?

 

[bksumm]

I have a few thoughts on this topic.

The Church is in the business of saving souls by leading others to Jesus Christ…not ensuring economic prosperity. Sure the Church is fully engaged in helping the poor on their journey in this life. But, as Catholics, we should be primarily concerned with the disposition of our souls and should consider our eternal destiny.

What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his soul?

It is easier for a camel to pass though the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter heaven.

Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of God.

I am unaware of many bible verses that talk of the virtue of economic prosperity. That shouldn’t be the primary goal…the goal is to be eternally with our Lord. If the Church were to teach something that would lead us to sin, She wouldn’t be a good mother.

 

[thistle]

The Philippines could have been another South Korea. Matter of fact, world business leaders, in the 70’s, predicted the Philippines to keep pace with South Korea. But with its ever increasing population weight, it just slowed down and down and down. One reason that everybody overlooks the economic effect of rapid population growth is because a higher authority says that it is corruption that causes poverty in the Philippines. But tell me of a country that is devoid of corruption. Even the Vatican is not immune to corruption; it is paying out billions of dollars in settlement payments.
There is no use crying over spilled milk. It is time to think for the Filipinos in the next 30 years because at the Philippine population growth rate of 2.3% a year, Philippine population will double in 2040 while South Korea’s will dip to 43 million because it has the lowest total fertility rate in the world.

Under population is a lot easier to manage and solve than overpopulation in the same way that an under-inflated tire is preferable to an over-inflated tire. When running on a hot road, the under-inflated tire has room for air expansion, the over-inflated tire, not much. They wouldn’t call it, population explosion for nothing.

You are confused. The settlements being paid out by the Church are because of many priests’ abuse of children. That terrible crime and mortal sin is not corruption unless you are arguing that every type of sin is corruption.

You are right that every country has corruption but in the vast majority of countries it is not on the scale you find here. Here in the Philippines it has become embedded in the culture from top to bottom. Poverty will not be solved by slowing population growth. It will only be solved by stamping out the massive corruption. Unless that happens resources will never be available to eradicate poverty.

 

[JRKH]

According to the study millions of Filipino including the lower-income bracket spend significant portions of their money in cigarettes, alcohol, gambling (i.e. jueteng), and other similar practices that generally do not lead to improvements in their health and general welfare,** therefore they can divert portion of their budget for reproductive materials i.e. condoms.**

But will they?
My guess they will not.

Family planning and sex education can be included in the curriculum.

Andyou’ll have the same issues that we have here. Parents who do not want their children taught baoug sex and birth control in the classroom, or who would agree it certain things were included or exluded.
This is not as easy as you might think becuase you are treading on peoples personal religious beliefs,

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I have a few thoughts on this topic.

The Church is in the business of saving souls by leading others to Jesus Christ…not ensuring economic prosperity. Sure the Church is fully engaged in helping the poor on their journey in this life. But, as Catholics, we should be primarily concerned with the disposition of our souls and should consider our eternal destiny.

What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his soul?

It is easier for a camel to pass though the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter heaven.

Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of God.

I am unaware of many bible verses that talk of the virtue of economic prosperity. That shouldn’t be the primary goal…the goal is to be eternally with our Lord. If the Church were to teach something that would lead us to sin, She wouldn’t be a good mother.

 

[sinnerdexter]

I have a few thoughts on this topic.

The Church is in the business of saving souls by leading others to Jesus Christ…not ensuring economic prosperity. Sure the Church is fully engaged in helping the poor on their journey in this life. But, as Catholics, we should be primarily concerned with the disposition of our souls and should consider our eternal destiny.

What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his soul?

It is easier for a camel to pass though the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter heaven.

Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of God.

I am unaware of many bible verses that talk of the virtue of economic prosperity. That shouldn’t be the primary goal…the goal is to be eternally with our Lord. If the Church were to teach something that would lead us to sin, She wouldn’t be a good mother.

Most of the “rich” have found the meaning and value of existing life and will not allow a camel to squeeze through the eye of the proverbial needle. To do so is torture and cruelty to animals. Thus, in “rich” countries people who mistreat animals are punished severely for mistreating them. One guy got two years jail time and $10,000 fine for throwing a cat out of a third floor window, although the cat survived, albeit with a lot of broken bones, but it’s doing OK now.

The “rich” have enough means and know-how to make a needle with a large enough eye to let the camel pass through without straightening its back. And the camel can drink and store as much water as it wants.

“Love of wealth or money is the root of all evil”, the same source from which that camel passage came from, says. But poverty is also the root of evil. Some “poor” parents just burned down a school building for a few kilos of rice. And a lot of “poor” kids are rummaging through the dumps of Payatas Village (maybe Thisle and Ferds Guiang know the place…Anyway I passed by it last December and saw them) to be able to buy a kilo of rice. And yet the poor are blessed and are assured heaven. Does it matter that the poor are existing in living hell?

 

[sinnerdexter]

But will they?
My guess they will not.

They will buy contraceptive materials instead of i.e. a lottery ticket for three reasons: 1) happiness (I will not elaborate) 2) since contraception prevents unwanted pregnancies, it can improve the quality of life of their family 3) here in the Philippines many couples quarrel and even separate due to money problem, for example if lose in gambling.

With having contraception you will have one less thing to argue about; it helps keep the relationship healthy. There is nothing bad or evil about contraception considering the benefit it creates. If people improve financial stability will solve more problems than it creates, if any.

Andyou’ll have the same issues that we have here. Parents who do not want their children taught baoug sex and birth control in the classroom, or who would agree it certain things were included or exluded.
This is not as easy as you might think becuase you are treading on peoples personal religious beliefs,

Schools must be free to choose and parents must be consulted first, whether or not they will include age-appropriate sex education for adolescents in their classrooms.

 

[JRKH]

Most of the “rich” have found the meaning and value of existing life and will not allow a camel to squeeze through the eye of the proverbial needle. To do so is torture and cruelty to animals. Thus, in “rich” countries people who mistreat animals are punished severely for mistreating them. One guy got two years jail time and $10,000 fine for throwing a cat out of a third floor window, although the cat survived, albeit with a lot of broken bones, but it’s doing OK now.

The “rich” have enough means and know-how to make a needle with a large enough eye to let the camel pass through without straightening its back. And the camel can drink and store as much water as it wants.

Either I have misread what you wrote or you have misunderstood the message of Christ.

“Love of wealth or money is the root of all evil”, the same source from which that camel passage came from, says. But poverty is also the root of evil. Some “poor” parents just burned down a school building for a few kilos of rice. And a lot of “poor” kids are rummaging through the dumps of Payatas Village (maybe Thisle and Ferds Guiang know the place…Anyway I passed by it last December and saw them) to be able to buy a kilo of rice. And yet the poor are blessed and are assured heaven. Does it matter that the poor are existing in living hell?

Poverty is not the root of evil. Greed is. Those who are poor can sometimes be driven to acts of desperation. No question about it. But the cause of their desperation is the greed of others, or even possibly their own.
You said earlier that:
According to the study millions of Filipino including the lower-income bracket spend significant portions of their money in cigarettes, alcohol, gambling (i.e. jueteng), and other similar practices that generally do not lead to improvements in their health and general welfare
So - would these “poor people” who burned down the school have been less desperate if they were spending less money on cigarettes and gambling??
Are the children rummaging in the dumps to get money for food or for their parents to Gamble and smoke?

Poor people have the same choice as the rest of us. They can choose to Love God and work to be near Him in their station in Life or not. These Children could be witnesses to God, singing God’s praises as they rummage the dumps. The parents can pray for the grace and strength to give up cigarettes and gambling et. al. for the sake of feeding their children. They could further ask for the grace to practice chaste lives so that they do not have more children than they can adequately provide for.

Much depends on the “world-view” of the people themselves, and how they are taught from the pulpit and from the media.

The government and the people of wealth can also do much to aleviate the problems. Of that I have no doubt. But they must also have that poverty which brings us close to God. Poverty such that their money is not theirs but belongs to God to be used by them for the good of God’s people, especially those less fortunate.

Does it matter that the poor are existing in this temporary economic hell? Yes it matters. But the Church cannot sanction the sin of ABC and abortion as a solution to such a temporary “hell” when the result could be sending many souls to the permanent hell.

 

[JRKH]

They will buy contraceptive materials instead of i.e. a lottery ticket for three reasons: 1) happiness (I will not elaborate) 2) since contraception prevents unwanted pregnancies, it can improve the quality of life of their family 3) here in the Philippines many couples quarrel and even separate due to money problem, for example if lose in gambling.

With having contraception you will have one less thing to argue about; it helps keep the relationship healthy. There is nothing bad or evil about contraception considering the benefit it creates. If people improve financial stability will solve more problems than it creates, if any.

So - they will forego cigarettes and gambling in order to buy contraceptives when they won’t forego them for food?
So - They, being Catholics, will buy and use contraceptives in contradiction of Church teaching so they can be “happy” (I won’t elaborate either) here on earth and burn for eternity in Hell?
They will choose artificial contraceptives instead of NFP (assuming both are able to be taught) even though they can use NFP, which costs little or nothing, and STILL have the money avialable for food, or cigarettes, or gambling?

I think you are really giving contraception too much credit to solve the problems. Problems that, from what little I have read here, are much larger and more difficult than simple population control.

I also think that widespread availability of ABC methods will lead the Philipines to the same problems rampant in America. Infidelity, Teen Pregancy and eventually widespread abortion.

Schools must be free to choose and parents must be consulted first, whether or not they will include age-appropriate sex education for adolescents in their classrooms.

Yea - Just like here. Of course when the schools decide, after consulting with parents, to teach and or use materials that violate the wishes of the parents there is nothing that can be done.

Peace
james

 

[sinnerdexter]

You are right that every country has corruption but in the vast majority of countries it is not on the scale you find here. Here in the Philippines it has become embedded in the culture from top to bottom. Poverty will not be solved by slowing population growth. It will only be solved by stamping out the massive corruption. Unless that happens resources will never be available to eradicate poverty.

As I said, from my point of view, it is rapid population growth that is foremost in causing and aggravating poverty in the Philippines. Maybe corruption in government is right next to it. But let us look at corruption another way.

Poverty creates the conditions that are conducive to corruption. Proof? Google CORRUPTION PERCEPTION INDEX. It is a listing of countries in the order of how the world perceives them to be corrupt. At #139 out of 180 are four countries, Philippines, Bangladesh, Pakistan and Belarus. The first three countries have things in common__poverty, large population, rapid population growth, low GDP per capita. Belarus is relatively rich but is as corrupt as the Philippines. And if you look lower down the list (more corrupt), you’ll find Russia and Ukraine, both also developed and rich, especially Russia, which possesses enough atomic weapons to kill everybody else in the world a few times over, thus wiping out poverty. Reason? Corruption was a way of life in the former communist Soviet bloc countries because everybody else was poor and only the state was rich and the state employees. Poverty (no private property) caused them to be corrupt. Corruption has become a way of life and the way to do business, but they’re creeping up the list.

Now look at the list again and take note of the countries which are more corrupt than the Philippines. As per GDP per capita, they are all economically poor. Poverty invites corruption.

 

[sinnerdexter]

I think you are really giving contraception too much credit to solve the problems. Problems that, from what little I have read here, are much larger and more difficult than simple population control.

I do believe that the population problem is fundamental and cannot be resolved just passing a Population Control Bill. Although I do agree it can be eased. You see people will do what they want to do with or without the Population Control law. I tell you Filipino people are extremely creative at getting away with anything. The general view is let’s spread our seeds and multiply. Only the few are enlightened.

The reason why Italy have effective population program is because the government is truly secular. Italians can compartmentalize their religious and secular views.

 

[sinnerdexter]

The Philippine Catholic faithful must be the favorite of the Vatican. This is just my point of view. Here’s why.

By percentage of Catholic believers relative to the total population, Italy has more Catholics. Italy has been a Catholic country a lot longer than the Philippines.That is why the Vatican is there in the first place. Italy, like South Korea and other highly developed countries, has a declining population trend. Therefore those countries must be checking their population growth. By what means? Abstinence? The last time I heard, Sophia Loren is still a very sexy woman. I agree. The Rhythm method? I don’t think so. There is no rhyme there. It is plain that Italians practice all kinds of birth control methods. And the Vatican is right there within eavesdropping distance. Are Italians bad Catholics and Filipinos good Catholics? Or are Italians good Catholics and Filipinos better Catholics when it comes to birth control?

Italy had Catholicism as the state religion since I think 1946 when it became a republic and also well before that. In 1984, Italy dropped Catholicism as its state religion. Reason? The Vatican was trying too much to influence the State. Abortion, I think, is legal in Italy since 1981. And sex education has been taught in schools since 1989. And a few years back, the Vatican commented on the ready availability of contraceptive devices in pharmacies, to which a noted pharmacist replied, “Isn’t it better to take the pill than to have an abortion and to use a condom rather than get an infection?” Good answer, I would have said.

In 2007, Pope Benedict delivered his “dangerous individualism” speech, referring to Catholics not producing enough new people for the faith. Did the Italians listen? The last time I checked, Italy’s population growth rate remains below the replacement level of 2.1%.

Think the Filipinos can be like the Italians? Or are they trying to be more Catholic than them? Why can’t the Philippine Congress act on HB 5043?

 

[sinnerdexter]

I also think that widespread availability of ABC methods will lead the Philipines to the same problems rampant in America. Infidelity, Teen Pregancy and eventually widespread abortion.

It is not true that all countries where contraceptive use is promoted eventually legalize abortion. Many Catholic countries criminalize abortion even as they vigorously promote contraceptive use like Mexico, Panama, Guatemala, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Paraguay and Ireland. The Muslim and Buddhist countries of Indonesia and Laos also promote contraceptive use yet proscribe abortion. In fact studies says, correct and regular use of contraceptives reduces abortion rates by as much as 85 percent and negates the need to legalize abortion.

 

[thistle]

As I said, from my point of view, it is rapid population growth that is foremost in causing and aggravating poverty in the Philippines. Maybe corruption in government is right next to it. But let us look at corruption another way.

Poverty creates the conditions that are conducive to corruption. Proof? Google CORRUPTION PERCEPTION INDEX. It is a listing of countries in the order of how the world perceives them to be corrupt. At #139 out of 180 are four countries, Philippines, Bangladesh, Pakistan and Belarus. The first three countries have things in common__poverty, large population, rapid population growth, low GDP per capita. Belarus is relatively rich but is as corrupt as the Philippines. And if you look lower down the list (more corrupt), you’ll find Russia and Ukraine, both also developed and rich, especially Russia, which possesses enough atomic weapons to kill everybody else in the world a few times over, thus wiping out poverty. Reason? Corruption was a way of life in the former communist Soviet bloc countries because everybody else was poor and only the state was rich and the state employees. Poverty (no private property) caused them to be corrupt. Corruption has become a way of life and the way to do business, but they’re creeping up the list.

Now look at the list again and take note of the countries which are more corrupt than the Philippines. As per GDP per capita, they are all economically poor. Poverty invites corruption.

I don’t agree with what you are saying. In my view poverty is not the cause of corruption but the result of it.
There are not too many people in this country. Its the corrpuption preventing resources being available to help the poor.

 

[JRKH]

I do believe that the population problem is fundamental and cannot be resolved just passing a Population Control Bill. Although I do agree it can be eased. You see people will do what they want to do with or without the Population Control law. I tell you Filipino people are extremely creative at getting away with anything. The general view is let’s spread our seeds and multiply. Only the few are enlightened.

I think here we are really not discussing whether the population needs to be controlled but what methods should be employed. This relates, regardless of method, to education rather than legislation. Your statement above of the, “general view”, is certainly one that needs addressed.
Most “uneducated people” will just naturally take from their faith those things that seem to benefit them while trying to ignore those things that are more difficult. In this case making babies is seen as good, (and fun) while ignoring the bigger spiritual issues of chastity (not fun) and responsibility for providing for those children. In this I do see a need for the Church in the Philipines to work in the parishes and from the pulpits to address these issues of responsibility and true Christian manliness.
I would say that The Church, both Clergy and Laymen, in the Philipines has a large task ahead of them to try to educate the faithful in the poprer use of their reproductive faculties for the Glory of God.

The reason why Italy have effective population program is because the government is truly secular. Italians can compartmentalize their religious and secular views.

I cannot think of a more dangerous idea to ones soul than to “compartmentalize (ones)religious and secular views”!!!

The greatest commandment is:
YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND. (Mt 22:36-40).
Does this sound like a commandment that wishes us to place God in a compartment seperate from our “secular views”???
Does this mean that we can “Love God” completely and then ignore His Church’s teachings on contraception AND/OR Chastity?

That is really the core issue here. because, as Catholics, we are called to chastity. We are called to the right use of our bodies and the right use of the marital bed. We are called to Love each other for the Love of God, and making more babies than one can support is not doing this.

A government can pass any Law they wish permitting the use of ABC methods. That does not mean that a Catholic can or should use such methods. To do so - to compartmentalize - is a grave sin for the Catholic.
The use of ABC methods may provide a way to reduce the population, but it also provides the means to ignore Chastity with seeming impunity, but with very real damage to ones spiritual life.

I realize that, in the things I am saying here, many will say I am being unrealistic, that “people are people” and that “I don’t know the Philipines”. All of these things are true and I am fully aware of this. I am sure that there is, as in most so called, “Catholic Countries”, a large percentage of the population that is only, “culturally Catholic”. That most probably do not go to Mass or confess regularly or haven’t seen the inside of a church since they were married.
I can only say that, by God’s grace, I must uphold the teachings of the church.
The Government of the Philipines will pass, or not pass, legislation as it sees fit.
The People, as individuals, will act as they see fit.
They will choose, out of ignorance, or self interest, or spiritual desire, whether they will use ABC methods or not.
God will judge each individual on their own merits.

I truly hope that the Philipines will be able to overcome her problems including widespread corruption and poverty.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

It is not true that all countries where contraceptive use is promoted eventually legalize abortion. Many Catholic countries criminalize abortion even as they vigorously promote contraceptive use like Mexico, Panama, Guatemala, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Paraguay and Ireland. The Muslim and Buddhist countries of Indonesia and Laos also promote contraceptive use yet proscribe abortion. In fact studies says, correct and regular use of contraceptives reduces abortion rates by as much as 85 percent and negates the need to legalize abortion.

Well I was speaking only of the US and not “All countires”, but OK I’ll accept that legalized contraception does not necessarily lead to legalized abortion.

What I do know is that in the US, where ABC is widely available there are, on average, 4000 children killed every day by abortion. I would hate to see this butchery happen in the Philipines.

Peace
James

 

[sinnerdexter]

I cannot think of a more dangerous idea to ones soul than to “compartmentalize (ones)religious and secular views”!!!

The greatest commandment is:
YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND. (Mt 22:36-40).

You are SO right about this.