Help in answering a Purgatory query of a non-catholic friend

[Vile_Servant]

“Although an increase in the number of the damned results in an increase of each one’s punishment, so much the more will their hatred and envy increase that they will prefer to be more tormented with many rather than less tormented alone.”

Nope. This does not explain the “impassable chasm” between the rich man in hell and Abraham’s bosom. If the rich man was in purgatory, he would cross over the chasm one day once he has been fully purified of his sins. Therefore the rich man is in hell (of damnation).

St Thomas explained this beautifully when he wrote;
"Reply to Objection 1. So great will be the envy of the damned that they will envy the glory even of their kindred, since they themselves are supremely unhappy, for this happens even in this life, when envy increases. Nevertheless they will envy their kindred less than others, and their punishment would be greater if all their kindred were damned, and others saved, than if some of their kindred were saved. For this reason the rich man prayed that his brethren might be warded from damnation: for he knew that some are guarded therefrom. Yet he would rather that his brethren were damned as well as all the rest. "

In other words, the rich man will suffer greater torment and envy if someone else went to heaven instead of his brethren. therefore he wanted his brethren to be saved and avoid going to hell in preference to strangers being saved. Sure, the rich man would want more people to join him in hell, in spite of the increased torments for all, but he would much prefer people he did not know to join him in hell over his own brethren.

 

[Vile_Servant]

Why? Maybe because he would have wanted them to go straight to heaven and perhaps avoid his sin and spend less time being purified in the fires of purgatory.

No, it makes a mockery of God’s justice that man can live sinfully his entire life, neglect the poor and sick at his very doorstep, die impenitent, and still enter heaven one day. Therefore God’s justice condemned the rich man to hell and not purgatory.

(Matthew 25:44-46)
“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[Vile_Servant]

This is true but as was pointed out, those in hell would not be concerned about where their loved ones ended up. In fact, the more souls that joined them, they happier they would be. Not so for the souls in purgatory.

Those in hell are consumed by envy and rage. So they will care where their loved ones ended up. If their loved ones ended up in heaven, it will cause the damned souls less envy and rage than if strangers ended up in heaven instead.

Souls in purgatory are completely dispassionate about where their loved ones ended up, because souls in purgatory are perfectly subject and conformed to God’s will, and can no longer will anything for themselves.

 

[kelvinf]

This is true but as was pointed out, those in hell would not be concerned about where their loved ones ended up. In fact, the more souls that joined them, they happier they would be. Not so for the souls in purgatory.

Is there happiness in hell (except for the devil, I guess)?
Unrepentant sinners end up in hell. It makes more sense for them to be concerned about their loved ones instead of wishing that more souls join them there. That’s what I think.

 

[Vile_Servant]

Is there happiness in hell (except for the devil, I guess)?
Unrepentant sinners end up in hell. It makes more sense for them to be concerned about their loved ones instead of wishing that more souls join them there. That’s what I think.

There’s no happiness in hell (not even for the devil), the souls in hell know that they have lost God for all eternity, through their own fault. And this knowledge brings them far greater pain, rage and despair than the torment of hellfire.

 

[kelvinf]

There’s no happiness in hell (not even for the devil), the souls in hell know that they have lost God for all eternity, through their own fault. And this knowledge brings them far greater pain, rage and despair than the torment of hellfire.

I asked that question because of what SK said:

…In fact, the more souls that joined them, they happier they would be…

 

[Vile_Servant]

I asked that question because of what SK said:

SK was quoting St Thomas Aquinas’ teaching in his Summa Theologica;
“Although an increase in the number of the damned results in an increase of each one’s punishment, so much the more will their hatred and envy increase that they will prefer to be more tormented with many rather than less tormented alone.”

However, SK’s acceptance of St Thomas Aquinas’ teaching is selective because SK rejects St Thomas’ teaching (also in Summa Theologica) that the rich man in the parable was in hell instead of purgatory;
"So great will be the envy of the damned that they will envy the glory even of their kindred, since they themselves are supremely unhappy, for this happens even in this life, when envy increases. Nevertheless they will envy their kindred less than others, and their punishment would be greater if all their kindred were damned, and others saved, than if some of their kindred were saved. For this reason the rich man prayed that his brethren might be warded from damnation: for he knew that some are guarded therefrom. Yet he would rather that his brethren were damned as well as all the rest. "

Perhaps SK is a Cafeteria Thomist?

 

[Vile_Servant]

You seem to forget that not only did the Rich Man see the righteous of God but they were able to see and hear him. How happy would the saved be if they CONSTANTLY heard and saw the agony of loved ones that were suffering in hell?

After the last judgment, hell will be shut forever by God’s mighty hand. the blessed will rejoice in the justice of God, and therefore the damnation of the lost. The separation of the blessed and the damned will be then be final for all eternity.

 

[Sir_Knight]

No, it makes a mockery of God’s justice that man can live sinfully his entire life, neglect the poor and sick at his very doorstep, die impenitent, and still enter heaven one day. Therefore God’s justice condemned the rich man to hell and not purgatory.

(Matthew 25:44-46)
"Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

I guess somebody forgot to mention this to Jesus when He promised heaven to the man crucified on His right.

 

[Sir_Knight]

After the last judgment, hell will be shut forever by God’s mighty hand. the blessed will rejoice in the justice of God, and therefore the damnation of the lost. The separation of the blessed and the damned will be then be final for all eternity.

God allows a connection now but will remove that connection later? Where are you getting this from? And even if that were true, how can the saints in heaven today enjoy heaven if they see and hear a loved one suffering in hell? Are you saving that heaven will be made better after the final judgement because they will not longer see their loved ones in hell? Again, where are you getting this from? Heaven will not get better or worse.

 

[Vile_Servant]

I guess somebody forgot to mention this to Jesus when He promised heaven to the man crucified on His right.

I guess you forgot that the man crucified on His right not only repented of his sin but also witnessed Christ to the world by declaring Jesus’ innocence publicly when nobody else, not even Jesus’ disciples, did. The good thief justly deserved salvation. The rich man, who died impenitent, did not.

Luke 23:40-43
*"The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, “Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation? And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” *

 

[Vile_Servant]

And even if that were true, how can the saints in heaven today enjoy heaven if they see and hear a loved one suffering in hell?

St. Thomas Aquinas wrote in Summa Theologica(IIIa Supplement to the Third Part, Question 94)

*94. THE SAVED AND THE DAMNED

1. The sufferings of the damned will be perfectly known to the saints or blessed in heaven, and will only make them the more thankful to God for his great mercy towards themselves.
2. There can, however, be no pity in the saints with reference to the damned. For, on the other hand, they know that the damned are suffering what they chose and still perversely choose. On the other hand, pity is painful in the one who experiences it, and there can be nothing painful in heaven.
3. The blessed are in full conformity with the will of God who wills justice. The saints rejoice in the accomplishment of God’s justice. To this extent it can be said that they joy in the pains of the damned.*

 

[Deacon_JAR]

The information I am sharing with you is very long, therefore, It will be divided in 2 parts.

PART I
As we all know, parables were tools used by our Lord Jesus to teach. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man dined “sumptuously”, in other words, he ate expensive food every day. At his door was a poor man, a beggar called Lazarus, who would gladly have eaten just the scraps that fell from the rich man’s table. But not even the scraps the rich man ever shared with Lazarus.
Now, let us meditate on the following prophecy spoke by our Lord Jesus Christ. In the gospel of Matthew, Jesus describes an event that will take place during the second coming. He says that the Son of Man will sit upon his throne and separate the sheep from the goats. The sheep will be placed on His right and the goats on His left. To those of His right, the sheep, He will say, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you…” (25:34). Jesus calls the sheep “the righteous”. To those on His left, the goats, the Son of Man will say, “Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (25:41). What is the “criteria” to be used by the Son of Man to separate the sheep and the goats?
To those on His right (the sheep/ righteous) He will say, “For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me a drink…Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me” (25:35,40). To those on His left, the goats, He will say, “Depart from me…For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink…Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me. And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life” (25:41-42, 45-46).
In Matthew 12:28-31 a Sadducee asked Jesus, “Teacher, which commandment in the Law is the greatest? He [Jesus] said to him, ‘You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.’” Our faith, coming alive through the gift of LOVE, will be the criteria to be used by the Son of Man to separate the sheep and the goats. Taking in consideration these scriptural passages we may say that the final destination of the rich man in the parable is very clear.
1 John 5:14-17 states that all wrongdoing is SIN and sins may be divided in two categories: not deadly and deadly. Some of us call them venial and mortal respectively. John mentions that through the prayer of a believer God can grant life (forgiveness) to a person whose sin is not deadly. About the person with deadly sin(s) John writes, “There is such thing as deadly sin about which I do not say that you should pray” (5:16). An example of a deadly sin is the one described in Matt. 12-31-32, “Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven…either in this life or in the life to come.” So, we may conclude that those dying with deadly sin(s) will not be forgiven, therefore, their final destination will be eternal punishment, also known as eternal fire.
Let us meditate on the following scriptural passages. Habakkuk 1:12-13 says, “… O Lord, you have marked him for judgment, O Rock, you have readied him for punishment! Too pure are your eyes to look upon evil.” Rev. 21:27 states, “…but nothing unclean will enter it”, referring to the New Jerusalem, the city of the Living God (Heb. 12:22), “nor anyone who does abominable things.” Hebrews 12:14 says, “Strive for…that holiness without which no one will see the Lord.”
What happens to those who die without deadly sin(s) but with their hearts still stained by not deadly sin(s), still lacking that holiness without which no one will see the Lord? Prayer for the dead is not a practice introduced by the Roman Catholic Church. The concern for the well being of the souls of the departed has been an integral part of Judaism (predecessor of Christianity), Roman Catholic Church, Easter Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Church, and the Assyrian Church for hundreds of years. Why pray for the dead if there be no belief in the power of prayer to assist those who as yet are excluded from the sight of God?

 

[Deacon_JAR]

Part II

In Judaism, prayers for the dead are an integral part of their Jewish services. The prayers offered on behalf of the deceased consist of: Recitation of Psalms; Reciting a thrice daily communal prayer in Aramaic known as “Kaddish” which actually means “Sanctification” (or “[Prayer of] Making Holy”) which is a prayer “In Praise of God”; or other special remembrances known as Yizkor; and also a Hazkara said either on the annual commemoration known as the Yahrzeit as well on Jewish holidays. During the 2nd century before the birth of our Lord, Judas Maccabees, a leader in Israel, moved his army into the city of Adullam. He encountered the bodies of many Jews who have been slaughtered. Scripture says, “But under the tunics of each one of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear…Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out…He then took a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice…Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin” (2 Mac. 12:40,42-43,46).
In our Christian New Testament there is a scripture that implies the use of this practice. Let us remember that Jesus and his disciples were raised under the Jewish traditions. In 2 Tim. 1:16-18 Paul talks about his friend Onesiphorus. He writes, “May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphorus…May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day.” Paul is talking about the day of Judgment. It is not stated that Onesiphorus, for whom Saint Paul prayed, was dead, though some scholars infer this, based on the way Paul only refers to him in the past tense, and prays for present blessings on his household, but for him only “on that day”. And towards the end of the same letter, in 2 Timothy 4:19, Paul sends greetings to “Prisca and Aquila, and the house of Onesiphorus”, distinguishing the situation of Onesiphorus from that of the still living Prisca and Aquila.
Many Church writers wrote documents where they clearly stated the use of this practice among early Christians. In “De corona militis” Tertulian states that prayers for the dead are considered an Apostolic ordinance. In “De Monogamia” Tertulian advises a widow “to pray for the soul of her husband, begging repose for him and participation in the first resurrection.” St. Augustine, in the City of God” XXI.24 writes, “that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were others [sinners] who though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come.” In his masterpiece “Confessions”, chapter 9, St. Augustine prays for the soul of his departed mother Monica. Saint Basil the Great († 379 writes in his Third Kneeling Prayer at Pentecost, “O Christ our God…(who) on this all-perfect and saving Feast, art graciously pleased to accept propitiatory prayers for those who are imprisoned in hades, promising unto us who are held in bondage great hope of release from the vilenes that doth hinder us and did hinder them … send down Thy consolation… and establish their souls in the mansions of the Just; and graciously vouchsafe unto them peace and pardon; for not the dead shall praise thee, O Lord, neither shall they who are in Hell make bold to offer unto thee confession. But we who are living will bless thee, and will pray, and offer unto thee propitiatory prayers and sacrifices for their souls.”
Saint Gregory Dialogus, in his famous Dialogues written in 593, teaches that, “The Holy Sacrifice (Eucharist) of Christ, our saving Victim, brings great benefits to souls even after death, provided their sins (are such as) can be pardoned in the life to come.” However, St. Gregory goes on to say, “the Church’s practice of prayer for the dead must not be an excuse for not living a godly life on earth. The safer course, naturally, is to do for ourselves during life what we hope others will do for us after death.” I believe the words of Father Seraphim Rose († 1982) are profound. He says, "the Church’s prayer cannot save anyone who does not wish salvation, or who never offered any struggle (podvig) for it himself during his lifetime.”
The Roman Catholic Church teaches that “Purgatory” is a place or condition of temporal punishment to those who, departing this life in God’s grace (Salvation is a gift from God), are not entirely free from not deadly sin(s) or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgression(s). Purgatory comes from the Latin word “purgare” which means to make clean, to purify. Therefore, with a great sense of love, we pray for the souls of our departed brothers and sisters, asking the Lord to pour His mercy upon them. We have faith that our prayers will assist them during their purification process.
My brothers and sisters, I am sharing with you all this information not with the intention for you to accept the teaching of Purgatory and the practice of the prayers for the dead, but to allow you to understand and meditate on the history of these beautiful traditions that are an integral part of the Jewish, Roman Catholic, Easter Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and the Assyrian faiths.

 

[inkaneer]

I guess somebody forgot to mention this to Jesus when He promised heaven to the man crucified on His right.

But Jesus didn’t promise him heaven. He said the thief would be with Jesus in paradise that day. Jesus did not go to the Father until after he resurrected three days later. So how could the thief beat Jesus to Heaven?

 

[PJM]

=alitaptap;6375794]So how can I convince him that there is such thing as Purgatory?

It’s complex and requires Faith which is a gift from God.

Denial of Purgatory is either not knowing, understanding or accepting what the Bible has to say First about Sin [1 John 1:8-10; 1 Jn.5:16-17 and Jn. 20:20-23], about God’s Judgement [Ps. 9:4; Mt. 12:36; Jn. 5:22] and God’s very Nature which requires Him, in an absolute sense to be Just and Fair. [Lk. 14: 14; Jn. 5:30; Rom. 2:13].

Here’s an example:

You steal $50.00 from me [that’s a sin;right?]

When I come to get it back you refuse to return it so in anger I kill you. [That too is a sin right?]

As I I try to make my escape; I get run over by a car; and I die too.

Now we both have unrepented, unconfessed, unforgiven sins on our soul.

Can God is fairness judge your sin equal to mine? Can God treat us the same way? NO!

Because God is Perfect in every way; humanity to MUST be perfected [purified] before one can gain access to heaven.

Your sin of theft is not serious enough to send you to hell. Mine was! So what happens to you? You must repay the sin guilt. That is the purpose of Purgatory. To prepare the imperfect to be in the Divin Presenceof a erfect and must be Just God. Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”.

1Cor.3: 15 " If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Purgatory is necessary because of man’s imperfection and the requirements of God’s Justice and requirement for only perfection in His Divine Presence.

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[Zoin]

It’s complex and requires Faith which is a gift from God.

Denial of Purgatory is either not knowing, understanding or accepting what the Bible has to say First about Sin [1 John 1:8-10; 1 Jn.5:16-17 and Jn. 20:20-23], about God’s Judgement [Ps. 9:4; Mt. 12:36; Jn. 5:22] and God’s very Nature which requires Him, in an absolute sense to be Just and Fair. [Lk. 14: 14; Jn. 5:30; Rom. 2:13].

Here’s an example:

You steal $50.00 from me [that’s a sin;right?]

When I come to get it back you refuse to return it so in anger I kill you. [That too is a sin right?]

As I I try to make my escape; I get run over by a car; and I die too.

Now we both have unrepented, unconfessed, unforgiven sins on our soul.

Can God is fairness judge your sin equal to mine? Can God treat us the same way? NO!

Because God is Perfect in every way; humanity to MUST be perfected [purified] before one can gain access to heaven.

Your sin of theft is not serious enough to send you to hell. Mine was! So what happens to you? You must repay the sin guilt. That is the purpose of Purgatory. To prepare the imperfect to be in the Divin Presenceof a erfect and must be Just God. Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”.

1Cor.3: 15 " If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Purgatory is necessary because of man’s imperfection and the requirements of God’s Justice and requirement for only perfection in His Divine Presence.

Love and prayers,
Pat

The problem with the verse that you uses is that it didn’t mention about anything about Purgatory. You just concluded that way. In the bible there’s only hell and heaven. If you didn’t repent before you die and didn’t changed your way then it’s hell for you as simple as that. The one you killed won’t be because there’s an exemption in every rules it doesn’t mean he will go to Purgatory which is non existing place lol…

 

[Sir_Knight]

St. Thomas Aquinas wrote in Summa Theologica(IIIa Supplement to the Third Part, Question 94)

*94. THE SAVED AND THE DAMNED

1. The sufferings of the damned will be perfectly known to the saints or blessed in heaven, and will only make them the more thankful to God for his great mercy towards themselves.
2. There can, however, be no pity in the saints with reference to the damned.* For, on the other hand, they know that the damned are suffering what they chose and still perversely choose. On the other hand, pity is painful in the one who experiences it, and there can be nothing painful in heaven.
3. The blessed are in full conformity with the will of God who wills justice. The saints rejoice in the accomplishment of God’s justice. To this extent it can be said that they joy in the pains of the damned.

Are you saying that God will no longer give us the grace of compassion toward our loved ones?

 

[Sir_Knight]

I guess you forgot that the man crucified on His right not only repented of his sin but also witnessed Christ to the world by declaring Jesus’ innocence publicly when nobody else, not even Jesus’ disciples, did. The good thief justly deserved salvation. The rich man, who died impenitent, did not.

Luke 23:40-43
"The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, "Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation? And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal." Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

How do you know this? While scripture does not tell us that he repented, it does not say that he didn’t repent either …

LUKE 16:22 “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.”

… Thus, we can not assume either way. We can only go by what was said and what was said is that he expressed concerned for his brothers – a grace from God which those in hell do not receive.

 

[ElizabethPH]

The problem with the verse that you uses is that it didn’t mention about anything about Purgatory. You just concluded that way. In the bible there’s only hell and heaven. If you didn’t repent before you die and didn’t changed your way then it’s hell for you as simple as that. The one you killed won’t be because there’s an exemption in every rules it doesn’t mean he will go to Purgatory which is non existing place lol…

Have a look at this:

catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

hope it helps your understanding of what we believe, whether you believe it or not.

Peace