HELP! In debate with Protestant minister!

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Boomer Sooner:

Greetings, Everybody! I need some big time help over here! I am a convert to the Catholic faith (since 2000) and I would rate my apologetics as rather novice. And as luck would have it, right now I’m in a little bit of a debate with a Church of Christ pastor! (I’ll keep him nameless for the time being). His church is rather large (especially for a CoC church) in Oklahoma City with probably a few thousand members that attend weekly and probably hundreds more on his mailing list.

My father attends his church everynow and then and is on his mailing list. After the death of Pope John Paul the Great, this is what he sent out [this bulletin](http://www.just(name removed by moderator)aulbrown.com/catholicism/coc_docs/bulletin_pixels.jpg) to all of his members (Note how it starts off rather well, then quickly sours):

Needless to say, after reading this letter full of nonsense, I was rather upset. I tried to just forget about it, but it bothered me incredibly to think that people would read this letter and really think that Catholics thought the pope was “rightful ruler of the universe”, etc. I couldn’t sleep at night! So a few days later, [I sent him this letter.](http://www.just(name removed by moderator)aulbrown.com/catholicism/correspondence.htm) Basically, I told him that his bulletin was full of errors and tried to point them out as best I could in a kind manner.

He then wrote me back and said that he had proof and documentation for all of his statements that he would be happy to send me. To which, I agreed and asked if I could see it, which I received in the mail yesterday. [You can click here to view all of his documentation.](http://www.just(name removed by moderator)aulbrown.com/catholicism/debate_index.htm) That is where we are in the debate as of now.

If you are a novice - then you shouldn’t be debating.​

Beginners in chemistry don’t dispense medicines (at least, one hopes not); students beginning New Testament Greek don’t write articles on the use of the word Christos in the NT; and if we don’t know enough about the Faith to engage in debate about it, we should leave to others who are better qualified to do so the task of explaining it.

Otherwise, we are sure to mislead others, however well-intentioned we and they may be; or else, to say what is not true. Which is a good way of bring the Faith into disrepute. ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

JCPhoenix:

Look up his sources, debunk them, and then provide alternatives. I’m sure if you call the apologists line they will be happy to help you.

I would start with a Google search, or check out www.metacrawler.com to search out his authors and find out who they are and where they get their supposed “authority” this “pastor” is using as his basis.

As far as finding better authors…definitely rely on the professional apologists. I would recommend calling the apologist line for CA-- I can’t find this so can anyone provide the phone number?

His sources can only be “debunked” if they do not say what he says.​

Some outlandish claims were made for the Popes - as late as 1584, the Summa de Potestate Papae of Augustine of Ancona O.S.A. (Augustinus Triumphus, as he is more commonly known) was being reprinted: and he, like others, makes some remarkable claims: such as that the Pope had all authority in the Church, spiritual and temporal; and that others had it only by Papal permission. And that is the least of it.

These claims - and others - don’t cease to have been made merely because Catholics with computers four hunded years later have never heard of these ideas. We have to do our homework, if we are going to debate; otherwise we will end by saying what is demonstrably untrue. St. Thomas Aquinas said this 700 years ago - the lesson is still worth repeating. Something is not automatically untrue merely for being said by a Protestant: it is the facts of the case, not the religion of the informant, that matters.

BTW - read the Dictatus Papae some time: they make some remarkable assertions. Here is a link - and here is another##

 

[Ignatius]

Boomer Sooner:

Thanks for the help so far guys!!

Ignatius:

If your Church of Christ, your church broke of from the Campellites in 1906.

I’m curious about what he said when you informed him that his religion didn’t start until the 20th century. What did he say 'bout the founding date for his religion?

 

[Exporter]

The originator of this thread used the phrase," in a debate with a protestant minister"

I might interject that in a debate both have to speak a language that both understand. Prot. terms do not mean the same thing to a Catholic. There are just a few rule that debaters comply with.

1. Once you have defined a word or you have taken a position on a subject YOU CANT CHANGE.
2. It is a fatal flaw to misrepresent a written document, they loose.
3. If one side cant refute arguments of the other, they loose.
4. “Straw men”: are out of bounds.

How do I know? For several years I was a debate coach. My team won the State Tournement (TX) on one occasion. There are rules for a “debate”. What I have seen here is just an argument with no rules.

 

[Boomer_Sooner]

True, Exporter, you are correct. I admit this isn’t a “debate”…yet. It’s basically a Protestant minister in my town going on a Catholic-bashing rampage… and I’m just trying to tell him that his accusations about the Catholic Church are misled/wrong. (Who knows though – perhaps the Holy Spirit will guide him and he will come around. If it can happen to Scott Hahn, Tim Staples, Steve Ray, etc – then anyone can change their minds! ).

Thanks again for all of the info guys! This is great stuff! I haven’t had time yet to responded to him yet since his last letter where he sent me all of his “documentation”. I’ve just been reading all of your posts and slowly gathering them all up into a response to give him.

So, Ignatius, I haven’t yet spoken to him about the founding of his church in the 20th century. Although, I’m sure it will be interesting to hear what he has to say – because, as you know – many in the “Church of Christ” churches claim to be THE, true “Church of Christ”. It’s funny to see how so many can just overlook 2,000 years of church history!

So, by all means, if any of you have more to say or add to this thread – keep on posting! I haven’t written him back yet, so any more help/advice you guys would like to give or share would still be greatly appreciated. I’ll be sure to let you all know what comes of this! Thanks again!

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

Vonier:

My advice, succinctly put, is to be proud you’re Catholic and let Protestants in the witnessing mode know you enjoy a spiritual depth and joy that’s the product of 2000 years of Christian experience.

Vonier,

I’m glad you mentioned pride, because, after many, many years of enduring the sort of bigotry under discussion, I have decided it is just that - our pride in our Catholicism - that prompts much of the criticism.

Put yourselves in the place of the haters: Century after century every effort imaginable was made to destroy this institution. “Ecrasez l’enfame!” And often, it seemed as if success was just about in the hands of the destroyers. Then, oops! That Church was back again. It doesn’t go away, does it?

“What?” you may ask, “When do we show pride? What do we flaunt?” This is true, but it is almost as if our failure to flaunt is also viewed as pride. Even the hatred shown by ex-Catholics vis a vis the almost non-existent hatred shown by Catholic converts from other ecclesial communities displays a unique character about what they have left and the emotional turmoil their leaving engenders.

So then, here is the strangest thing of all: The haters of Catholicism are filled, not with joy at having escaped such horror, but rather with envy! Please think about this, and let it soak in, and after a while you will see this I am sure.

Meanwhile, I would leave the explanations to those who have come from the same anti-Catholic place. I would put in their hands the materials provided by the Hahns, Cavins, Staples, Sheas, et al who can meet them where they are. I would do it cheerfully, but I would in no way be an enabler willingly providing such a person an opportunity to vent his/her venom.

And I would follow the instructions of St. Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don’t worry!!!

Anna