Help! John 6

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=Randy Carson;4976981]I have no idea what you are trying to say.

I am a Catholic, and I am defending Jesus’ teaching on the Eucharist in John 6 by proving that the Protestant idea that Jesus was speaking metaphorically is incorrect. Since Protestants typically point to John 6:63 in an attempt to support their misunderstanding, I have demonstrated that “the flesh” in this verse means “human reasoning”.

Beyond that, I really don’t know how to respond to your post.
:tiphat:Randy, you did a GREAT job:clapping:

I was just adding more wood to the “fire of truth” that you expalined so beautifully!
 
wow! flabbergasted, where did you get the time and space theory? never mind don’t bother cause i will not get into some opinion of what one thinks?

i just responded to the muse of my new friend zach, he said i did not address your response but now i remember why. take care.

God bless you.
Where did I get the time and space theory? I stated that in time and space Calvary happened only once. Are you saying you don’t agree?
 
Pls pray for the repose of my sister soul Cherry R. Painaga
she passed-away last October 8, 2008

Philippine Daily Inquirer
First Posted 01:36:00 10/09/2008

Robbers shoot, wound woman
A young woman was shot in the stomach while trying to fight off robbers who barged into her house, hogtied her mother and siblings and took their cell phones and money late Tuesday night in Pasig City. Cherry Painaga was reported to be in critical condition at the Rizal Medical Center where she was rushed for a gunshot wound she sustained during a robbery staged by suspected “Gapos” gang members, investigators said and died after the operation in Medical City.

The incident occurred at about 11:30 p.m. inside the Painagas’ house at 21 E. Santos St., Barangay San Joaquin, said Chief Supt. Leon Nilo de la Cruz, Eastern Police District director. Based on the initial probe, the five robbers, brandishing .38 caliber pistols, broke into the Painagas’ house and hogtied all six members of the household: Cherry, her mother Gloria and siblings Jericho, Sandra, Aina and Pamela.

Cherry tried to resist but one of the armed men shot her in the stomach, according to a report by Insp. Belinog Zenampan of the Pasig Police Station. The robbers reportedly tried but failed to rape two of the siblings, but De la Cruz said he was not aware of the rape attempt.
Investigators said Jericho was able to free himself from being tied and screamed for help, prompting the robbers to flee. De la Cruz said the suspects managed to take only four cell phones and around P60,000 to P72,000 in cash.
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0 k zach, you want it all once cause for me say what i think Jesus is speaking would require a lot of reading so i could go step by step, i will let you decide, zach my man, thanks, i love you.

God Bless you.
Yes, I would prefer it all at once, I don’t mind reading.
wow! flabbergasted, where did you get the time and space theory? never mind don’t bother cause i will not get into some opinion of what one thinks?

i just responded to the muse of my new friend zach, he said i did not address your response but now i remember why. take care.

God bless you.
Being eternal is one of the essential characteristics of God, where do you get that He is not? And your “sincere” sarcasm is greatly appreciated.

Pax,
Zach
 
John 6:48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; 50 this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." 52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?” 53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”

Is Jesus really implying that we eat His flesh so that we might have eternal life?

In Jewish tradition what does the bread signify?

When bread was broken and eaten, what did it mean?

There are many questions to ponder over this passage so I will look into what the bread and drinking of wine mean or try to get some sort of meaning. I am not a studied person, one who has studied Jewish tradition or history, so my only source would be found in the Bible. It would be easy for me to copy and paste what has been written by the scholars and theologians, but I am sure you all have read it as well. I am sure you’ve heard or read the arguments from both sides. As a Christian we partake in the LORD’S SUPPER as a memorial for what He has done on the Cross, a sacrifice, an atonement for our sins paid in full by the blood He shed on the Cross.

We as believers have been delivered and have victory in Jesus that is why we do in memory for He said to do it in memory of Him.

Luke 22:19 Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.

Matthew 26:26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.” 27 Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.

1 Corinthians 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread 24 and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.

However, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1366, “The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit.” The Catechism continues in paragraph 1367:

The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Holy Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory.”

This statement doesn’t coincide with Scripture, now the Church hasn’t always viewed the eucharist as such. I’ve read some of the post in defense that this is not a sacrifice and also how we (protestants) see this as a metaphor. I have stated what is said in the liturgy of the eucharist and like a good catholic you all stand in defense of the church. Well here is the words:

“Pray, brothers and sisters, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father.” Exhortation from the priest to the congregation and then the congregation responds, “May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands, for the praise and glory of his name, for our good, and the good of all his church.”

Our sacrifice? May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands?

This has not always been the practice of the Church, my friends. In 1551, the counsel of trent officially stated: "by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood.(session xii, chapter iv, cf. canon ii)

My friends this is not biblical, they’ve misread chapter 6, forget about when this transubstantiation came into effect. How can one offer up the body of Christ as a sacrifice to God?

May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands?

This is what God says about that in Malachi 1:10 Oh, that one among you would shut the temple gates to keep you from kindling fire on my altar in vain! I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD of hosts; neither will I accept any sacrifice from your hands, 11 For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.

WHO IS AUGUSTINE?
 
I have a loved one who is a Southern Baptist. Now, it has become evident that that they do not teach all of what Jesus said, only certain passages. How do I explain that in John 6 that Jesus for the first and only time does not correct or clarify His message. He lets the non believers walk away and provides nothing of a clarification to His Apostles.
Point out all the passages where it says clearly and distinctly this is my body this is my blood and paul says this cup is it not the blood this bread is it not the body.

When they start wavering ask them with a smile and an allusion to a memorable quote by a recent president, “So you are saying that 'it all depends on what the meaning of is is ?”
 
=Jerry Marino;4996937]John 6:48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; 50 this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." 52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?” 53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him”
Is Jesus really implying that we eat His flesh so that we might have eternal life? .
Yes he is… BUT

It is now the Glorified and risen Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of the same Jesus, made present in “an unbloody Sacrifice” that we consume under what appear (“the accidents”) of ordinary Bread and wine. Pretty awsome!

I
n Jewish tradition what does the bread signify?
Bread was common for sacrifice offerings to Yahweh God. Some of the names bread went by were “holy bread” “bread of sacrifice” and “bread of Presence” (which was baked fresh daily, and the 12 loafs were palced on the altar in front of the Ark.)
When bread was broken and eaten, what did it mean?
OT times only knew of a “promised Mesiah” so there was no signifinace to eating the bread, EXCEPT for the “bread of Presence” which had to be eaten by the Priest, as a reminder of the dependance on Yahweh God.
As a Christian we partake in the LORD’S SUPPER as a memorial for what He has done on the Cross, a sacrifice, an atonement for our sins paid in full by the blood He shed on the Cross.
Close but not quite.

“The forgiveness of sins” that are removed by worthy reception of jesus in the Eucharist, are only veniel (lesser) sisns. Mortal sins must be Confessed and prohibit one from receiving Jesus is Holy Communion, until and unless one does so.
We as believers have been delivered and have victory in Jesus that is why we do in memory for He said to do it in memory of Him.
No, no, my dear friend. By Christ Death and Reserection we are “Redeemed” but still have to and must work out out individual Salavation, in accordance with God’s plan.

“Redeemption” and “Salvation” are NOT SYNOMOUS terms.

You did a wonderful job looking up revelant passages. Well done:tiphat:

However, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1366, “The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit.” The Catechism continues in paragraph 1367:The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Holy Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory.”

Help me out here, what is it you think your quote is saying that belies what we Catholics believe?
This statement doesn’t coincide with Scripture, now the Church hasn’t always viewed the eucharist as such. I’ve read some of the post in defense that this is not a sacrifice and also how we (protestants) see this as a metaphor. I have stated what is said in the liturgy of the eucharist and like a good catholic you all stand in defense of the church. Well here is the words:
Friend, I don’t know what you’ve read and I too have seen some strange things come from “catholics.” But your wrong here. The position of the Catholic Church has been from the Last Supper" to the present time the same. Many, many, thousands have given there lives in support of this Eucharistic Mystery. Our position has never changed!
Pray, brothers and sisters, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father." Exhortation from the priest to the congregation and then the congregation responds, “May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands, for the praise and glory of his name, for our good, and the good of all his church.”
Friend you’ve done your homework, even if you don’t understand the discovery:clapping:
Our sacrifice? May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands?
“our sacrifice” expands the Eucharistic sacrifice to permit us to add to it (completely unworthy of such a suspreme act) our own daily “struggles and crosses” in Glorification, and Thanksgiving for such a Wonderous Gift.

Catholic Eucharist / “Holy Communion” is:

**A Gift from God (His Son Jesus)

By God (Jesus offers Himself to the father on our behalf)

And To God (father, Son, and Holy Spirit.**

Everything about the Eucharist is a Mystery. Indeed we have a “mystery” within a Greater Mystery, that takes place at every Catholic celebration of the Mass.

It is By God, of God and For God…PLEASE SEE Next POst for balance:)
 
PREVIOUS POST CONTINUED

It is God who transforms The Body, Blood, Soul and Divinety of the now Glorifed Jesus into what ONLY APPEARS to be “Bread and Wine!”

1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: “Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation.”

1548 In the ecclesial service of the ordained minister, it is Christ himself who is present to his Church as Head of his Body, Shepherd of his flock, high priest of the redemptive sacrifice, Teacher of Truth. This is what the Church means by saying that the priest, by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, acts in persona Christi Capitis:

It is the same priest, Christ Jesus, whose sacred person his minister truly represents. Now the minister, by reason of the sacerdotal consecration which he has received, is truly made like to the high priest and possesses the authority to act in the power and place of the person of Christ himself (virtute ac persona ipsius Christi).
Christ is the source of all priesthood: the priest of the old law was a figure of Christ, and the priest of the new law acts in the person of Christ. "
This has not always been the practice of the Church, my friends. In 1551, the counsel of trent officially stated: "by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood.(session xii, chapter iv, cf. canon ii)
My friends this is not biblical, they’ve misread chapter 6, forget about when this transubstantiation came into effect. How can one offer up the body of Christ as a sacrifice to God?
:tsktsk:Friend your not understanding it neiter changes its TRUTH or its reality:thumbsup:

Jn. 6: “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever." **

Friend read these words outloud. What did you just hear yourself proclaim? And who’s words were you reading? God’s!
May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands?
This is what God says about that in Malachi 1:10 'QUOTE]
Friend, your wrong again. You started strong but stumbled about halfway through.
All this statement means, is thanking God for the unearned and incredible privledge of the Priest to able to participate By, with and for Christ, is this most solem Sacrifice!
WHO IS AUGUSTINE?
Click of the “Encycopedia” box at the top of the Forum, and you’ll find him. Quite a guy and quite a story.

A+ for effort

Only a D for understanding
😃

Love and prayers,
 
wow! you can add to it?

please elaborate cause i don’t want to be presumptuous to that statement so i’ll sit here for an explanation, thank you.

i know who augustine is but do you know?

do you know what he taught on this topic?

Jesus said, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone,but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” matthew 4:4
 
=Jerry Marino;5000076]wow! you can add to it?
please elaborate cause i don’t want to be presumptuous to that statement so i’ll sit here for an explanation, thank you.
i know who augustine is but do you know?
do you know what he taught on this topic?
Jesus said, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone,but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” matthew 4:4
Hi Brother Jerry,

Yes, actually I do. I also know what the RCC teaches and why.

I would point out to you, that Augustine spoke how many years ago?

**
Only, Only, Only the Pope speaking as the Head of the RCC can make a binding declairation on behalf of the Universal Catholic Church,** and assurred by God Himself to be incapable of error. And then only, on matters of faith and or morals.

So, Jerry my friend, I’m missing the point your trying to make.

One wonders given your lack of proper understanding of the Bible and Catholic Theology, if maybe you may have missed something of what Agustine meant? Not that it is that important.

My dear friend, if you wish to disprove the bible with authority, use the bible, or at least Papal teaching as Official Doctrine.👍

Your obviously a bright and motivated guy, I I greatly admire your effort, to discover truth. But frind you need to be open to you when it hits you in the heart!

Love and prayers,
 
my dear friend i understand the Bible and one thing going along with your statement on the popes authority, God does not change!

but your pope or popes have changed throughout and that is cause they are in err.
 
Augustine corrects the literal interpretation and affirms that “eating” is a positive metaphor for believing.

This is then to eat the meat, not that which perisheth, but that which endureth unto eternal life. To what purpose dost thou make ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and thou hast eaten already (Augustine, Tractate 25).

For to believe on Him is to eat the living bread. He that believes eats; he is sated invisibly, because invisibly is he born again (Augustine, Tractate 26).

Deuteronomy 8:3
in order to show you that not by bread alone does man live, but by every word that comes forth from the mouth of the LORD.

this Scripture to go along with augustine’s statment ‘endureth unto eternal life’

Bread to the Jewish people is the Torah and Jesus is the Word made Flesh but read again as to augustine’s words on John 6, there is more. For to believe on Him is to eat the LIVING BREAD

this is what the early church fathers taught but somehow the church has strayed away from this the eucharist was not indoctrinated until the 1500’s, i believe. but there are many on here who have studied the history of the church that could be more precise. now of course to put something as truth 1500 years later, whoa.

turn to the Cross of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins my friends

God bless
 
I am quite certain that St. Augustine believed in and received the Eucharist as a normal part of the practice of his faith.
 
my dear friend i understand the Bible and one thing going along with your statement on the popes authority, God does not change!

but your pope or popes have changed throughout and that is cause they are in err.
Catholic doctrine has never changed. Catholic ways of doing things may have changed, but doctrine has not.
 
Augustine corrects the literal interpretation and affirms that “eating” is a positive metaphor for believing.

This is then to eat the meat, not that which perisheth, but that which endureth unto eternal life. To what purpose dost thou make ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and thou hast eaten already (Augustine, Tractate 25).

For to believe on Him is to eat the living bread. He that believes eats; he is sated invisibly, because invisibly is he born again (Augustine, Tractate 26).

Deuteronomy 8:3
in order to show you that not by bread alone does man live, but by every word that comes forth from the mouth of the LORD.

this Scripture to go along with augustine’s statment ‘endureth unto eternal life’

Bread to the Jewish people is the Torah and Jesus is the Word made Flesh but read again as to augustine’s words on John 6, there is more. For to believe on Him is to eat the LIVING BREAD

this is what the early church fathers taught but somehow the church has strayed away from this the eucharist was not indoctrinated until the 1500’s, i believe. but there are many on here who have studied the history of the church that could be more precise. now of course to put something as truth 1500 years later, whoa.

turn to the Cross of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins my friends

God bless
“For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (A.D. 110-165).

“He acknowledged the cup (which is a part of the creation) as his own blood, from which he bedews our blood; and the bread (also a part of creation) he affirmed to be his own body, from which he gives increase to our bodies.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:2,2 (c. A.D. 200).

"Then, having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, He made it His own body, by saying, ‘This is my body,’ that is, the figure of my body. A figure, however, there could not have been, unless there were first a veritable body. An empty thing, or phantom, is incapable of a figure. If, however, (as Marcion might say,) He pretended the bread was His body, because He lacked the truth of bodily substance, it follows that He must have given bread for us. It would contribute very well to the support of Marcion’s theory of a phantom body, that bread should have been crucified! But why call His body bread, and not rather (some other edible thing, say) a melon, which Marcion must have had in lieu of a heart! He did not understand how ancient was this figure of the body of Christ, who said Himself by Jeremiah: ‘I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter, and I knew not that they devised a device against me, saying, Let us cast the tree upon His bread,’ which means, of course, the cross upon His body. And thus, casting light, as He always did, upon the ancient prophecies, He declared plainly enough what He meant by the bread, when He called the bread His own body.” Tertullian, Against Marcion, 40 (A.D. 212).

“He likewise, when mentioning the cup and making the new testament to be sealed ‘in His blood,’ affirms the reality of His body. For no blood can belong to a body which is not a body of flesh. If any sort of body were presented to our view, which is not one of flesh, not being fleshly, it would not possess blood. Thus, from the evidence of the flesh, we get a proof of the body, and a proof of the flesh from the evidence of the blood. In order, however, that you may discover how anciently wine is used as a figure for blood, turn to Isaiah, who asks, ‘Who is this that cometh from Edom, from Bosor with garments dyed in red, so glorious in His apparel, in the greatness of his might? Why are thy garments red, and thy raiment as his who cometh from the treading of the full winepress?’ The prophetic Spirit contemplates the Lord as if He were already on His way to His passion, clad in His fleshly nature; and as He was to suffer therein, He represents the bleeding condition of His flesh under the metaphor of garments dyed in red, as if reddened in the treading and crushing process of the wine-press, from which the labourers descend reddened with the wine-juice, like men stained in blood. Much more clearly still does the book of Genesis foretell this, when (in the blessing of Judah, out of whose tribe Christ was to come according to the flesh) it even then delineated Christ in the person of that patriarch, saying, ‘He washed His garments in wine, and His clothes in the blood of grapes’–in His garments and clothes the prophecy pointed out his flesh, and His blood in the wine. Thus did He now consecrate His blood in wine, who then (by the patriarch) used the figure of wine to describe His blood." Tertullian, Against Marcion, 40 (A.D. 212).

“He once in Cana of Galilee, turned the water into wine, akin to blood, and is it incredible that He should have turned wine into blood?” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, XXII:4 (c. A.D. 350).

“Having learn these things, and been fully assured that the seeming bread is not bread, though sensible to taste, but the Body of Christ; and that the seeming wine is not wine, though the taste will have it so, but the Blood of Christ; and that of this David sung of old, saying, And bread strengtheneth man’s heart, to make his face to shine with oil, ‘strengthen thou thine heart,’ by partaking thereof as spiritual, and “make the face of thy soul to shine.”” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, XXII:8 (c. A.D. 350).

“‘And was carried in His Own Hands:’ how ‘carried in His Own Hands’? Because when He commended His Own Body and Blood, He took into His Hands that which the faithful know; and in a manner carried Himself, when He said, ‘This is My Body.’” Augustine, On the Psalms, 33:1, 10 (A.D. 392-418).
 
truce

you believe it the way you think and i the way i think, it don’t matter does it?

do we have fellowship with Him?

do we have communion?

what matters is if we believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died on the Cross for us and rose on the third day ascending to heaven. once we believe this what do we do? repent and be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

this topic is old.

God bless you.
 
Do this in remembrance of Me?? What do these words mean. Finding this out will be helpful I’ll bet!
 
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