Help me defend against the "orans" posture

[lphelps]

No. I feel that the orans is solely for the priest since he is the celebrant of the Mass. If each Catholic could conduct Mass and evoke transubstantiation on their own I’d have no problem with it. As one person said humorously, if performing the orans by the congregation is self intitiated, then why not swinging from chandeliers or baton twirling?

 

[ncjohn]

lphelps:

No. I feel that the orans is solely for the priest since he is the celebrant of the Mass. If each Catholic could conduct Mass and evoke transubstantiation on their own I’d have no problem with it. As one person said humorously, if performing the orans by the congregation is self intitiated, then why not swinging from chandeliers or baton twirling?

Hi, and welcome to the forums. It’s always nice to “see” new faces.

I think it has been pretty well established that since the Holy See has specifically authorized its use in some places, and that Bishops are allowed to encourage it (at the least), that it can’t by definition then be only for the priest, although I will grant you that there are times when the priest is directed to use it.

There is also no valid comparsion between a valid prayer gesture and the many straw men that are thrown out that would obviously be considered an abuse and quickly repudiated.

One is certainly entitled to not like it or engage in it (I don’t), and certainly nobody should have it forced on them. On the other hand though, those for whom it has meaning or for whom a stronger connection to God is felt equally deserve to not be looked down or ridiculed as if they were just looking for ways to destroy the liturgy.

Peace,

 

[Deacon_Ed]

lphelps:

No. I feel that the orans is solely for the priest since he is the celebrant of the Mass. If each Catholic could conduct Mass and evoke transubstantiation on their own I’d have no problem with it. As one person said humorously, if performing the orans by the congregation is self intitiated, then why not swinging from chandeliers or baton twirling?

The orans position is an approved position, the others are not. How’s that for an answer?

Deacon Ed

 

[Dr.Bombay]

ncjohn:

There is also no valid comparsion between a valid prayer gesture and the many straw men that are thrown out that would obviously be considered an abuse and quickly repudiated.

Who are **you **to determine what a valid prayer gesture is? If hopping on one foot and patting my tummy helps me to commune better with my Creator, who are **you **to repudiate me?

How judgemental and pre-Vatican II. :tsktsk:

 

[ncjohn]

Dr. Bombay:

Who are **you **to determine what a valid prayer gesture is? If hopping on one foot and patting my tummy helps me to commune better with my Creator, who are **you **to repudiate me?

How judgemental and pre-Vatican II. :tsktsk:

Are you trying to say that the Orans is not a valid prayer gesture??? If so, you probably need to let the Vatican know so they can put a stop to it.

Dr Bombay, for someone as obviously learned as you are, I truly have a hard time understanding why you throw out such transparent stuff, unless it is purely as bait.

As to your example, as an individual you might be looked at warily doing what you described, but there is nothing that I’m aware of that controls the spontaneous acts of individuals. If a parish was to decide to try to do the same however, or a priest or bishop was to try to mandate it, we both know that it would be shut down in short order.

I truly do understand your dismay if you are being imposed upon to participate in something which you find contrary to your sensibilities. I would certainly hope that you recognize that I have consistently asked for charity on both sides and that people not impose their preferences on others or look down on them for not sharing a preference. I personally don’t participate in this one, but I don’t have a problem understanding why people do. I also will not look down on or question the devotion of either those who do or those who don’t any more than I will over whether one takes communion in the hand or on the tongue.

I’m not the enemy here, as much as you don’t seem to want to believe that. I understand some of your frustrations and truly do pray that we can all come to some peace of mind and ability to accept each other without bickering over the petty differences in preference.

Peace to you,

 

[CollegeCatholic]

It is interesting that one can recieve Eucharist either kneeling or standing, in the hands or on the toungue, followed by a sign of the cross or not, arms crossed for reception of a blessing, hands in front of mouth for reception of a blessing etc… and yet when we say the Our Father it’s a huge deal over whether we establish a position of openness to God… ?? Last time I checked, the priest does not intercede on our behalf when praying. The priest distributes the Sacraments but certainly does not pray for us. With that said, please describe the nature of the Our Father that gives the priest the sole right to maintain a particular stance. The words of consecration are the priest’s, the words of the Our Father are “Ours” as we say “Give us” “our daily” “forgive us” “our tresspasses” “we forgive” “against us” “lead us not” “deliver us.” I am really confused how the Priest has some unique role in this prayer… with that said, how is the Our Father not communal in nature considering the language is explicitely communal?

Also, why is it that we are to focus on the consecrated host when saying the Our Father when God the Father is not present in the consecrated host? It seems like all of this nitpicking is more of a distraction than a sign of openness and community…

 

[Dr.Bombay]

ncjohn:

As to your example, as an individual you might be looked at warily doing what you described, but there is nothing that I’m aware of that controls the spontaneous acts of individuals. If a parish was to decide to try to do the same however, or a priest or bishop was to try to mandate it, we both know that it would be shut down in short order.

And you base this opinion on what, John? The example of the past 40 years where diocesan bishops and the Holy See have been swift and firm in cracking down on dissent, heterodoxy and stupid liturgical experimentation? Yes, our shepherds have been so quick to squelch the liturgical silly season now entering its fifth decade. Your faith in them is well placed.

 

[BillyT92679]

CollegeCatholic:

It is interesting that one can recieve Eucharist either kneeling or standing, in the hands or on the toungue, followed by a sign of the cross or not, arms crossed for reception of a blessing, hands in front of mouth for reception of a blessing etc… and yet when we say the Our Father it’s a huge deal over whether we establish a position of openness to God… ?? Last time I checked, the priest does not intercede on our behalf when praying. The priest distributes the Sacraments but certainly does not pray for us. With that said, please describe the nature of the Our Father that gives the priest the sole right to maintain a particular stance. The words of consecration are the priest’s, the words of the Our Father are “Ours” as we say “Give us” “our daily” “forgive us” “our tresspasses” “we forgive” “against us” “lead us not” “deliver us.” I am really confused how the Priest has some unique role in this prayer… with that said, how is the Our Father not communal in nature considering the language is explicitely communal?

Also, why is it that we are to focus on the consecrated host when saying the Our Father when God the Father is not present in the consecrated host? It seems like all of this nitpicking is more of a distraction than a sign of openness and community…

Oh, don’t fall into that error! You’re unduly separating the Blessed Trinity into component parts. All prayers go to the Father anyway. Do not pit the adoration of God the Son as somehow oppositional to God the Father.

 

[ncjohn]

Dr. Bombay:

And you base this opinion on what, John? The example of the past 40 years where diocesan bishops and the Holy See have been swift and firm in cracking down on dissent, heterodoxy and stupid liturgical experimentation? Yes, our shepherds have been so quick to squelch the liturgical silly season now entering its fifth decade. Your faith in them is well placed.

I guess it’s just a difference in our views of the world Dr Bombay. There are those who “see a devil behind every tree” and thus live in fear. I believe the promises of Christ however that “the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church” and instead choose to live, as we are called to, in hope.

You look at a couple long-established examples of prayerful positions that happen to be different from what you prefer and see them as attempts to tear down the Church. I would challenge you to show me anywhere where the types of examples you so flippantly throw out exist or have not been promptly removed if they began. Please point me to a single ongoing example of standing on a foot patting one’s stomach, or bar-b-quing in the choir loft, or juggling, or any of the rest of them.

To the other side we have two positions–Orans and holding hands–which have been around for quite a while, have withstood intense oppostion, and in which the Vatican has totally declined to intervene. Maybe they just don’t see it as “stupid liturgical experimentation” but a valid attempt by many to express their devotion to God.

My entire purpose in posting at this site is to try to bring peace to our Church. We currently have two “sides” who seem to totally distrust each other and believe each other to be tearing the Church apart. We have a “traditionalist” side who seems to believe that anyone who expresses themselves differently than they do is just liberal and irreverent. Then we have the other side who feels that the “traditionalists” are just focused on the externals as the Pharisees were and are “worried about the outside of the cup rather than looking at the contents”. Both sides feel “persecuted” by the other.

I look at our Church and see the overwhelming majority just following the “when in Rome, do like the Romans” approach and just going along with whatever the parish is doing. At this site however we have people from both “sides” who deeply love God and have strong opinions about what they are doing. I do not question the motivation, piety, or devotion of ANYONE here. Quite the contrary, I see people who are seeking God in the best way they know how, but who are then having to deal with others jumping on them because they do it “differently”.

We need to remember that liturgy is the “work of the people”. Liturgy and liturgical gestures have to reflect the people’s understanding of God and give appropriate outlets to that expression. Liturgical gestures have changed often through the centuries, and vary within different Catholic rites. There are no magical gestures that are objectively “right” for approaching God, and we desperately need to stop thinking that there are–much less that only WE have THE RIGHT ONES. What is “right” is what brings us closer in our relationship to God.

Don’t misunderstand me to be saying that this should lead to an “anything goes” approach as I’m not saying that at all. Love of God and charity to neighbor–the great commandments of Jesus–will lead us to “appropriate” expressions. Expressions that are not appropriate will not gain acceptance by the larger community or will be repudiated by those in authority.

Is my hope in that authority misplaced? In the short term it might sometimes seem to be. I struggle as you do with the slow speed with which the Church often seems to move. In the long term though, I am going to trust Jesus that we will make it through in spite of ourselves, and pray for the peace of those who are anxious in the meantime (including me at times!). And mostly I’m going to keep urging people to be kind and charitable with each other and to “not sweat the small stuff.”

Peace to you my brother,

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I think this week I’m going to close my eyes during the Our Father so I’m not burdened with the knowledge of how anybody else in the place stands. It is amazing how personal this issue is. You’d think we’ve taken away the Eucharist from the Mass or something.

Imagine Our Father looking down at his children calling to him, when interspersed with the prayer we call to him in our hearts, “Hey Dad, can you believe my idiot siblings are standing in a different posture than I am?”

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

lepanto:

I am trying to explain to my friend that the laity should not take up the orans posture (or hold hands) during the Our Father.

I personally don’t like to hold hands during Our Father or especially raise them during the Protestant-ized “for thine is the kingdom” add-on that my Lutheran friend used to say as part of the Our Father.

I’ve gotten over trying to convince other people about this issue. I’m not afraid to say that I have a strong personal preference, and wish others would comply. That said, I think that’s the only argument I have going.

I’m aware that the GIRM is written in the positive-affirmative style, which is to say that “if it’s not in there don’t do it” but that’s not good enough for him. Also, our pastor happily holds hands with the altar servers and does nothing to discourage this abuse, so he’s no help.

The way I figure is if the pastor doesn’t stop something, one is welcome to escalate it up the ladder until such time as it gets buried under some bishop’s “make this go away” heap.

Alan

 

[netmilsmom]

ncjohn:

You look at a couple long-established examples of prayerful positions that happen to be different from what you prefer and see them as attempts to tear down the Church.

Long established? How long have Catholics been holding hands or doing the Orans in the 2000+ year history?

We currently have two “sides” who seem to totally distrust each other and believe each other to be tearing the Church apart. We have a “traditionalist” side who seems to believe that anyone who expresses themselves differently than they do is just liberal and irreverent. Then we have the other side who feels that the “traditionalists” are just focused on the externals as the Pharisees were and are “worried about the outside of the cup rather than looking at the contents”. Both sides feel “persecuted” by the other.

Honestly, John. Do you see how insulting this is? You have labeled people who just want the liturgy of their childhood as bigoted and hardheaded. Come on. One of our most “Historically Catholic” parishes has a Life Teen mass every Sunday. You fail to validate the amount of people here that watch EWTN, long for that kind of mass with no innovations and CAN’T get it. That’s why they are bitter. Not that they want to take away your way of worshiping, but rather that they see the innovations creeping in and want to stop it from getting worse. Offer one EWTN type mass and most of this will stop.

I look at our Church and see the overwhelming majority just following the “when in Rome, do like the Romans” approach and just going along with whatever the parish is doing.

Yes, I do too. And I see and hear how many people don’t like it. You seem to disregard that.
We have spoken before where I stated that something should be done at a mass and you basically said, “Not at MY mass. I like my mass time.”
I called you to a thread where the “traditionalists” were saying the same.
If we all gave a little we could all be happy. We could say, “If you don’t like the innovations…” or “If you don’t like the boring music…” go to another mass time. Many of the “traditionalists” Can’t. That is why they get frantic about things slipping futher than they are now.

Don’t misunderstand me to be saying that this should lead to an “anything goes” approach as I’m not saying that at all. Love of God and charity to neighbor–the great commandments of Jesus–will lead us to “appropriate” expressions. Expressions that are not appropriate will not gain acceptance by the larger community or will be repudiated by those in authority.

So lets visit again “Laying Prostrate” in the liturgy. That is not BBQ or juggling. What if this prayer posture became in vogue. Would you feel uncomfortable? Would you feel that those doing it are being “Uber-pious”? What if yelling out “AMEN” became the thing to do? How far do we let this go?

And mostly I’m going to keep urging people to be kind and charitable with each other and to “not sweat the small stuff.”

That “kind” should be coming and going. I have defended your position on this prayer posture, eventhough I don’t think it’s correct, I believe that you are correct to do it in certain diocese. But finding a loophole (individual initiation) only underminds those working for the unity of the church.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Honestly, John. Do you see how insulting this is? You have labeled people who just want the liturgy of their childhood as bigoted and hardheaded.

I understand the propensity for a person to prefer things of their childhood to continue, for that gives a sense of continuity and connection from one year and one generation to the next.

On the other hand, to claim that I am not getting a truly Catholic Mass when I go to a Catholic Church under a priest guided by a bishop appointed by the Pope who had continuous laying-on of hands since Peter, then I’m in fact rejecting the Church’s authority – in such a situation, I would not have the right to claim the Catholic Church is the one true Church, for I am putting my personal preferences ahead of her, and as wedges between those with whom Christ died so that we may have unity.

The Church can change things that don’t matter. We have to quit clinging on to those things as if they did matter.

Even spiritual directors take Rosaries away from their directees, when their devotion becomes an obsession or threatens toward idolatry.

Alan

 

[netmilsmom]

AlanFromWichita:

Imagine Our Father looking down at his children calling to him, when interspersed with the prayer we call to him in our hearts, “Hey Dad, can you believe my idiot siblings are standing in a different posture than I am?”

Imagine Our Father looking down and wondering why we feel a need to touch our temporary, physical bodies while we are spiritually joined anyway. He wants our attention.

One does not have to join hands to be joined. One has no need to raise our hands to heaven with Jesus on the altar.

I can imagine God looking at the seniors who are uncomfortable, yet do it because “everyone is” or the Mothers who do not want their children taught that innovations are correct and feeling their pain. I imagine that Our Father looks at this like the Bishop of St. Louis, who does not discount the comfort level of others with a “well just don’t do it.”

Is holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer allowed or encouraged?

BCL Newsletter, October-November 1989

No. The community’s corporate act of receiving communion is the primary symbol of unity with Christ and the Church. The Sign of Peace immediately preceding the reception of Communion is a liturgical rite that should not be minimized or duplicated in any way. A separate but related issue is the situation of individuals who for personal reasons feel uncomfortable with the practice of holding hands. In this case those individuals feel increasingly excluded from the worshipping community. Sensitivity is needed to include all and draw all to the true symbol of unity.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

You fail to validate the amount of people here that watch EWTN, long for that kind of mass with no innovations and CAN’T get it.

I suppose we’d all like to go to Mass at St. Peter’s every day, too, and I can’t have that. That’s what TV is for – is to give us a glimpse of things we can’t be there in person to see. The problem with TV, both secular and apparently religious, is that we tend to think our lives should become reflections on what we see there and become discouraged when they don’t.

On TV I can visit many places I would not even dreamed of, and experience beauty I would have missed. Let us not try to run the Church by our desire for her to keep up with the cosmetic standards set by our mental expectations of her.

Besides, what if you were actually at that Mass? How comfortable would you feel with TV cameras all around you when you are celebrating that intimate moment? Do you think it would be strange for people all over the planet to see you take the Eucharist? No wonder those people are straight as an arrow, with a whole planet of critics observing their every twitch.

Alan

 

[netmilsmom]

AlanFromWichita:

On the other hand, to claim that I am not getting a truly Catholic Mass…

Yes, you would be wrong to claim that and I never did. I use the words “Historically Catholic” for a reason.

 

[netmilsmom]

AlanFromWichita:

I suppose we’d all like to go to Mass at St. Peter’s every day, too, and I can’t have that. That’s what TV is for – is to give us a glimpse of things we can’t be there in person to see. The problem with TV, both secular and apparently religious, is that we tend to think our lives should become reflections on what we see there and become discouraged when they don’t.

On TV I can visit many places I would not even dreamed of, and experience beauty I would have missed. Let us not try to run the Church by our desire for her to keep up with the cosmetic standards set by our mental expectations of her.

Besides, what if you were actually at that Mass? How comfortable would you feel with TV cameras all around you when you are celebrating that intimate moment? Do you think it would be strange for people all over the planet to see you take the Eucharist? No wonder those people are straight as an arrow, with a whole planet of critics observing their every twitch.

Alan

OH my goodness! You sound like Mike Teevee on “Charlie and the Chocolate Factory” You do know that when one see something on television, it did actually happen, right?

Alan, my parish has 6 masses on Sundays that are exactly like an EWTN Holy Mass. Latin, Greek, the whole nine yards.
Is there some particular reason why a parish cannot do ONE mass on a weekend like this?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

OH my goodness! You sound like Mike Teevee on “Charlie and the Chocolate Factory” You do know that when one see something on television, it did actually happen, right?

Sure. Seeing is believing, I’ve heard!

Alan, my parish has 6 masses on Sundays that are exactly like an EWTN Holy Mass. Latin, Greek, the whole nine yards.
Is there some particular reason why a parish cannot do ONE mass on a weekend like this?

No reason in particular I can think of. It sounds like you are very blessed to have all those options at your home parish!

Alan

 

[ncjohn]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Long established? How long have Catholics been holding hands or doing the Orans in the 2000+ year history?

For most of us, these have been around for most of our lifetime, even if it may not be in a specific parish. While I agree that’s a drop in the bucket over the life of the Church, it is a significant amount of time in that the Church has specifically declined to act over that period and the experiences of our lifetimes are what we best relate to.

Honestly, John. Do you see how insulting this is? You have labeled people who just want the liturgy of their childhood as bigoted and hardheaded.

No, I have specifically NOT said this or done any labeling. I have simply acknowledged how people from the different sides are looking at each other. I specifically DISAGREE with BOTH sides as I think I make clear throughout this post and my many others on the subject. My whole point is to get past this stuff and respecting each other for our devotion to God.

I totally agree with you, as I always have, that the ideal is to have different masses where people can observe what they are most comfortable with. But I also continue to urge that we stop looking down on those who don’t share our preferences as if they’re trying to tear down the Church. Most, if not all of the people who are here talking about these issues are dedicated and devoted people who, like you, just want to be respected for their love of God and not looked down on.

So lets visit again “Laying Prostrate” in the liturgy. That is not BBQ or juggling. What if this prayer posture became in vogue. Would you feel uncomfortable? Would you feel that those doing it are being “Uber-pious”? What if yelling out “AMEN” became the thing to do? How far do we let this go?

I know we’ve discussed this before also. While someone laying prostrate at Adoration might occur, a community doing it during mass is logistically nearly impossible. As to shouting out AMEN, there are Charismatic masses where that occurs now. If you’re drawn to that, fine, I have no problem. I’m not so I don’t attend Charismatic masses. This is actually a great example of exactly what you’re addressing: having masses that “cater” to a specific segment rather than trying to mix everything into every mass.

That “kind” should be coming and going. I have defended your position on this prayer posture, eventhough I don’t think it’s correct, I believe that you are correct to do it in certain diocese. But finding a loophole (individual initiation) only underminds those working for the unity of the church.

As much as I might like to, I can’t think of a way that you can predict and preemptively stop something that an individual does. You can deal with it lovingly afterwards if it’s an issue, but if somebody decides that they want to rub their tummy and pat their head, I just don’t see a practical way of preventing that.

As to undermining unity, we can do the best we can, but our unity is in our beliefs, not necessarily in the expression of our devotion. We have unity in knowing that whatever church we attend, we will get the same readings. People are different though so we can’t guarantee that we’ll all have the same language or get the same homily, much less that every person is going to hold their hands in the same position.

In the end, like you, I would love to see masses that have as few distractions as possible. The truth of the matter is though that we bring on most distractions in life ourselves by how we react to them. The old saying that “the only person you can change is you” is totally true. I may not be able to get rid of all the distractions in my life, but I can work at how I react to them.

Thanks for all the love and support you’ve provided in helping to find reasonable accomodation for all of us. I truly appreciate it,and hopefully am doing the same for you. In the end the best we can do is our best to please God. Probably the only thing I “know” is that my attempts to please God do please Him. If I’m wrong about that, I guess the rest doesn’t really matter.

Peace and hugs to you!

 

[AlanFromWichita]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I can imagine God looking at the seniors who are uncomfortable, yet do it because “everyone is” or the Mothers who do not want their children taught that innovations are correct and feeling their pain. I imagine that Our Father looks at this like the Bishop of St. Louis, who does not discount the comfort level of others with a “well just don’t do it.”

It is also a comfort level issue with me. I don’t like to hold hands with people I don’t know very well. Technically those are our brothers and sisters next to us, but come on. None of us really thinks that way. I don’t really want to hold hands with the kid that just wiped his nose with his hand, or with the person with really bad body odor. Of course, back in the day I might have welcomed an excuse to offer my hand to an attractive woman next to me.

Really, I don’t like it. What amazes me is how intensive and emotional this issue is for people. It reminds me of Chicken Little or something. The sky is falling, but it is because of prophecy and not orans position IMO.

Alan