Help me defend against the "orans" posture

[AlanFromWichita]

That’s an arguement I can buy. It is surely a parent’s duty to teach the best and not just the acceptable. There is plenty of time for personal conscience later on.

So you agree that the behavior or the orans position is objectively “worse” than behavior of those who do not perform it?

If so, how do you come to this conclusion?

If not, I agree with the sentiment of teaching your children the best, and not just partly good. Not smoking, I believe, is objectively better than smoking. Neither orans nor hands folded, however, I believe is objectively better and that’s what this whole thread is about – it is a matter or preference, not quality.

You can say this is your style. The minute you say this is the best you are elevating yourself above those who consider their way the best – and if you aren’t pretty sure the Church is completely and objectively on your side (which it doesn’t appear to be) then you have just applied your own personal preference to the judgment of another person’s behavior.

Further, to judge another person’s behavior in worship, when they are not disobeying, is itself sinful. While we are teaching our children the best, we must make sure they know what is a matter of obedience and what is a matter of preference. If they take everything you say as if it were dictated by the Church, then some day when you aren’t there, they might be in a situation where they mistakenly apply their judgment unnecessarily. Thus as long as they understand that you have a personal preference – and even that you think it’s right – I think children deserve to know when it is our opinion and when we hold an opinion as valid as if it were from God.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Maybe it’s a “mom” thing.

It’s a dad thing too.

I used to try to control my children’s behavior. When some of them got to teenage I learned that I must go beyond that. I must teach them to control their very attitudes and feelings, instead of letting themselves be pushed around emotionally by life – given that power, I expect them to control their very attitudes as well as their behavior. Not only do I want them to know manners, I want those manners to be genuine expressions from their heart. For this they must trust my opinion a great deal, and they are taught to be tolerant of others’ behavior – normally avoiding orans but to consider those around as just as valid.

One thing I like to see the school kids do out of respect, that I wish the older people would learn from, is that at the end of Mass they kneel in silence until the candles have been put out. Twice a week the school kids go to 8 am Mass, and it is awesome that they just stay very still, while the adults sitting around in the backs all get up and make noisy exits… gosh.

Anyway I hear you as far as behavior and I sure wouldn’t want you to quit telling your kids to avoid orans. Just please don’t have them judge my kids or anybody else’s as behaving in an inferior manner if they should choose to use this posture.

Yes, it’s about respect. It hurts, though, when I hear people repeat that going to Mass is not about fellowship with each other but with the Eucharist. To me, the whole reason for the Eucharist is to enable us to follow Christ’s commandments even better – including loving one another. When we simply tolerate each others’ existence so that we may get our “God fix” at Mass, then we are missing the point of Christ, who wishes the Church to unite us. Granted, we are too sick to be united which is why we are in a hospital, but maybe it wouldn’t hurt to imagine that maybe, just maybe, every soul in the room is just as important, and we have no way to know that God cares whether they are in orans.

Alan

 

[Deacon_Ed]

AlanFromWichita:

Yes, it’s about respect. It hurts, though, when I hear people repeat that going to Mass is not about fellowship with each other but with the Eucharist. To me, the whole reason for the Eucharist is to enable us to follow Christ’s commandments even better – including loving one another. When we simply tolerate each others’ existence so that we may get our “God fix” at Mass, then we are missing the point of Christ, who wishes the Church to unite us. Granted, we are too sick to be united which is why we are in a hospital, but maybe it wouldn’t hurt to imagine that maybe, just maybe, every soul in the room is just as important, and we have no way to know that God cares whether they are in orans.

Alan,

You are correct that the Mass is about fellowship. First, we gather as ekklesia – the community called out – to worship the Father in Spirit through the Son. But is is about the encounter with the Risen Lord in the Eucharist that is the central aspect of our worship, our sacrifice. And even there it is the Body of Christ who is given the Body of Christ by the Body of Christ. We who are the Body of Christ are never individuals, we are always part of the Body and what we do, whether good or evil, affects the Body (or, at least, that’s what St. Paul teaches).

Deacon Ed

 

[ncjohn]

Deacon Ed:

Alan,

You are correct that the Mass is about fellowship. First, we gather as ekklesia – the community called out – to worship the Father in Spirit through the Son. But is is about the encounter with the Risen Lord in the Eucharist that is the central aspect of our worship, our sacrifice. And even there it is the Body of Christ who is given the Body of Christ by the Body of Christ. We who are the Body of Christ are never individuals, we are always part of the Body and what we do, whether good or evil, affects the Body (or, at least, that’s what St. Paul teaches).

Deacon Ed

Having spent some time thinking about what you’ve said here Deacon Ed, I find that you are of course totally correct, especially in these last couple lines. They led me into three points that I think are very relevant here.

First off, we are commanded to love our neighbor as ourselves. That’s a really tall order, and means that what we would wish for ourselves we must equally wish for all of God’s other children. And as we wish to be able to worship respectfully, we must be able and willing to afford those around us that same priviledge, without condemnation or any feeling of superiority; like the tax collector pleading “Lord be merciful to me, a sinner” rather than the Pharisee with his “Thank you Lord for not making me like those* others*.”

The second has to do with the verse from one of John’s letters where he states that one cannot claim to love the God he cannot see if he does not love the neighbor he can see. Again, same situation: how can we be condemining our neighbor–another of God’s beloved children–while claiming to be worshipping the God who loves that neighbor infinitely?

Finally we have the command that if we have something against a brother that we are to leave our gifts and resolve the problem with our brother, and *only then * come back to offer our gifts. If we are sitting in Mass of all places condemning each other, how can we possibly be fit to approach the King of Kings to offer our gifts.

I know we’re human and the ability to not react to distractions is limited. But I think we are strongly called–actually commanded–to do exactly that to the best of our ability. This doesn’t have to mean compromising what we believe to be right; but it does mean acting charitably toward those who might distract us, knowing that we are called to help them with their crosses just as they are called to help us with ours.

I apologize personally here to anyone whose cross I have made heavier. While my goal is always to bring us together, in my humaness I’m sure that at times I have failed to express that properly and inadvertently hurt people. Please, all of you be merciful to me, a sinner.

I’m going to go pick up my cross now and leave. I have some extra ones over in the corner if anyone needs one, or you’re welcome to share mine.

Peace,

 

[netmilsmom]

AlanFromWichita:

Anyway I hear you as far as behavior and I sure wouldn’t want you to quit telling your kids to avoid orans. Just please don’t have them judge my kids or anybody else’s as behaving in an inferior manner if they should choose to use this posture.

Trust me. My kids aren’t going to judge yours.
My hubby is Presbyterian (soon to be Catholic, Praise God)
My adopted sister is Baptist
My in-laws are Evangelical Christian at different Bible churches. (three of them)
We even have Jewish friends.

We believe that everyone worships, each to his own way. Just because I feel that something is not right for us does not mean that something is not right for you.

While you see me posting the facts of Orans and Handholding as I see it, what you have apparently never seen is my defending your right to do it. Really, I have.

Does that sound judgemental?

 

[pnewton]

AlanFromWichita:

So you agree that the behavior or the orans position is objectively “worse” than behavior of those who do not perform it?

If so, how do you come to this conclusion?

I never said objectively worse. Netmil(name removed by moderator) thinks her posturing is more reverant, so it is what she should teach, all other things being equal.

I do not ever use the orans (although I question the logic by which those here say it is an abuse) because I have no desire to copy the preist and prefer what is to me a more humble posture. Also, I have never judged anyone at any time for their dress, posture, reception method or anything else that some get riled up about. I simply do not care and it is out of my pay grade as a layman.

However, (big however) I will also teach what I find to be more reverant, and make no apology to anyone who finds me intolerant and judges me falsely for being judgemental. It is the wussy politically correct climate that says I must not have any preference and opinion of what I find holy and reverant, yet everyone else may have their opinion as long as it is watered-down to mediocrity.

Yes, I think wearing a tie is better than a tee-shirt, silence is better than jabbering and bowed heads are better than lifted eyes, so that is what I will teach. It is these actions I find better, not the people. When Jesus told us to “judge not”, he was not talking about a pie contest, but about people. We can surely judge impersonal things, and must, yet still be innocent of judging others.

 

[TheRam]

Three hours of the most intensly read thread i have ever read. Quite frankly i would like to share, but i am afraid of the tactics used to share ones oppinion in this thread. So many were overberring in their own need to be heard, that the Christianity of sharing was lost so long ago. I did however want to finnish the read without posting, as that would be the best respect i could give this. I saw so many others here that delivered their respectfully true ideals, in the most obnoxious and unfriendly manner, and mostly, i heard Gods tears.

If you have a point, a lesson, an alternate oppinion, a need to share and leave another Christian be drawn to your oppinion enough to research it further. To follow thier own need to pray and discern in the best way we could, through your teaching…well frankly, i would never ever follow any truth based on the abusive nature of this thread. You guys baffle me so much, cut each other up on proper manerisms with words that have cut into my heart as a listener…called eachother names…for what?

For the need to evangelise your point, to draw more to the Lord, to call to every friend you know…to Christ! Come on, this is exhausting, repetitive and highly unchristian behaviour. Then latter say, i understand your point, i agree with you…it was so…hormonal. Yeah, it was expressions of temper to prove a point, and you need to know that your points were lost in the unchristian delivery.

Two people…yes, only two people stood out to me in this entire thread…and guess what, i do not have the same belief system as they do, but they never once delivered their ponts uncharitable manner…they were concerned with what God wanted of them first, before the point was soooo lost.

Alan and John…you did this well, and curtiously! I thank you for your reason, as it made your point heard instead of feeling like i was being yelled at from a bullhorn…

I was baffled by this Dr. Bombay…i have no prior experience from him, so i will let it bee…i’d be this frustrated at the point of his exchanges aswell. netmil(name removed by moderator)…well the most agression i ever felt was on your part…yet once people called you on your points, your explanations were more noted. Untill then you had in haste maybe, delivered so agressively, that i lost ALL value in your points…even though i understood them, i did not hear your heart at all, your compassion or Christianity. It was so black and white.

Unfortunately, instead of learning something, i am so pensive, in a complete knot…that anyone would pass judgement over my tears, as i reached up to the Lord, crying out to comfort me when i have had to learn to accept that God has a reason for taking my son home to him, and he can not be at my side. My pain in this loss is so great, i feel i can not make it into church, and when i reach the point of prayer to our Lord…i can not put it to word…i simply want to be held, like a lost child, i reach up to him and beg for some understanding…I beg to be given the grace to endure, and know that this is not something i can know now.

I make myself open to him…tell me how often you have seen a child cry without his head tipped back? This is my reason for pointing my head upwards. I am broken, and i could not tell you is one other persoon in my church does this…as my eyes are closed in adoration, and hopeing the visuals all around me are blocked out.

Yet today, i have learned that God would think me a trator to do so, that i am a bad girl, and that i am assuming to be a priest…better yet, my priest is evil!

Thanks for the lessons, as you have truly set me back terribly!

God bless your hardened hearts!

Allana

 

[Trevelyan]

**the Spirit helps us in our weakness;
for we do not know how to pray as we ought,
but that very Spirit intercedes with sighs too deep for words.

Romans 8:26**

 

[TheRam]

**the Spirit helps us in our weakness; **

**for we do not know how to pray as we ought, **
**but that very Spirit intercedes with sighs too deep for words. **

**Romans 8:26
**

…i think i might go read that, and what might proceed or follow this…as i am very heavy of heart!

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

Quick question:

It may have occured to many of you that the Orans Posture usurped by the laity is an affectation, but has it ever occured to any of you how much such folks resemble Barbie and Ken?

“Hands just so!”

:whacky:

Anna

 

[Trevelyan]

TheRam, Part of the last verse of Francis Thompson’s “The Hound of Heaven” comes to my mind:

Is my gloom, after all,
Shade of His hand, outstretched caressingly?

On the EWTN website: The Hound of Heaven

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

GregoryPalamas:

Holding hands seems a bit schmalty but raising hands to heaven in the Bible and was and is commonly practiced in the East. Theology ought not to be run by rules and regulations.

CDL, Byzantine Catholic.

Amen to that ! Only those few things that can be, should be - otherwise one is in the position of those who try find proof of the efficacy of prayer.Not everything can be calibrated in this material fashion.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Trust me. My kids aren’t going to judge yours.
My hubby is Presbyterian (soon to be Catholic, Praise God)
My adopted sister is Baptist
My in-laws are Evangelical Christian at different Bible churches. (three of them)
We even have Jewish friends.

We believe that everyone worships, each to his own way. Just because I feel that something is not right for us does not mean that something is not right for you.

While you see me posting the facts of Orans and Handholding as I see it, what you have apparently never seen is my defending your right to do it. Really, I have.

Does that sound judgemental?

No, and yes I know you defend the right to do it. I was concerned about this judgmental undertone I heard before that you have addressed here. Also I’m concerned that you may think the Church is somehow obligated by rule or by good sense, to “do something about this,” with which I disagree but will allow you an opinon because frankly there are things I think should be done differently.

When you wrote that you regard other handholders as “protestant” I now see that this statement itself was not as bad as it sounded… many on these forums consider protestants as less than us, and their worship inadequate … so when you used the metaphor of Protestant to illustrate, I did not know what aspect of Protestants (e.g. being misled by satan for example) that you were addressing. By this post, I am now guessing that you meant that Protestants, like Orans people, are different. If that’s the case, then my only concern is that I might have been a helpful mirror for you to see how easy it is to have loaded words that other people such as me might misinterpret.

At the same time, I do not regret jumping in on this, because these verbal differences tend to grow and to become major wars – even when there was no real disagreement in the heart. It’s very difficult to write in such a way that messages aren’t loaded with words we are trained to have emotional reactions about, because none of us knows each others’ triggers completely.

Alan

 

[netmilsmom]

AlanFromWichita:

No, and yes I know you defend the right to do it. I was concerned about this judgmental undertone I heard before that you have addressed here. Also I’m concerned that you may think the Church is somehow obligated by rule or by good sense, to “do something about this,” with which I disagree but will allow you an opinon because frankly there are things I think should be done differently.

When you wrote that you regard other handholders as “protestant” I now see that this statement itself was not as bad as it sounded… many on these forums consider protestants as less than us, and their worship inadequate … so when you used the metaphor of Protestant to illustrate, I did not know what aspect of Protestants (e.g. being misled by satan for example) that you were addressing. By this post, I am now guessing that you meant that Protestants, like Orans people, are different. If that’s the case, then my only concern is that I might have been a helpful mirror for you to see how easy it is to have loaded words that other people such as me might misinterpret.

At the same time, I do not regret jumping in on this, because these verbal differences tend to grow and to become major wars – even when there was no real disagreement in the heart. It’s very difficult to write in such a way that messages aren’t loaded with words we are trained to have emotional reactions about, because none of us knows each others’ triggers completely.

LOL! No need for a “helpful” mirror. I truly feel that using the Orans position is a Priestly Gesture and therefore for the priest. The Archdiocese here has not given an opinion so I am left to do what the documents state and raise my children this way. In my experience, those who are pushing this posture in the laity, have an agenda (i.e. the DRE at my old parish). The people have been left without the proper education and follow. I won’t be a part of that.

As for the church doing “something about it”, I most certainly do! I think that each Vicariate should be forced to have one Historically Catholic mass and inform the people of where it is. Let the free market sort it out. My parish has doubled in three years by word of mouth alone. There is no reason why the “traditionalists” should not be accomodated. If no one comes, then close it down, but it would be very easy to see how a Diocese wants to worship instead of assuming, this way.

This is a discussion forum. Of course there are loaded words. If one has documentation to back one’s position, people can judge for themselves. When it’s nothing but emotion and opinion, people see that too.

It’s a pretty bold conclusion you jumped to on my statement on the differences between Protestants, uninformed Catholics and us. You are taking about the people, I am talking about what they do. If someone is innocent of the truth, you are making them less than us. Hmmmm. The Vatican doesn’t think this way and neither do I.

Now I see why my hubby’s friend in RCIA was appalled that we never evangelized non-Catholics. I tried to explain to him about people like you who look down on us for stating that the Catholic Church is the way. I said some thing and you assumed that I was stating that Protestants are “misled by Satan”. LOLOL! Here is an example, that I can print out and show them.

My friend, stop looking for a “judgemental overtones” and maybe you will see discussions for what they are.

 

[ncjohn]

Anna Elizabeth:

Quick question:

It may have occured to many of you that the Orans Posture usurped by the laity is an affectation, but has it ever occured to any of you how much such folks resemble Barbie and Ken?

“Hands just so!”

:whacky:

Anna

Gee thanks Anna for the humiliation of thinking that people might be laughing at whatever prayer posture I might be taking. And of course we do it totally as an “affectation” to just “look pious” so people won’t know what sinners we really are.

I guess looking at this, I would never have come to that conclusion
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Do these also look funny and “affected”–“hands just so”?

http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/pope_praying.jpg http://www.antipas.org/images/praying_pope.jpeg

I hate to think what peals of laughter I might be able to bring on when I am so overcome by the love of God that I throw myself on the floor before him.

I apologize that I’m sure I sound judgmental here as it is the one thing I strive not to be. But I have to admit that this might be the most insulting thing I have seen in these fora since I’ve been here.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

LOL! No need for a “helpful” mirror.

(mutters) if you only knew … most people appreciate when another person tells them there is egg on his face

The people have been left without the proper education and follow. I won’t be a part of that.

It is perfectly OK with me that you think all that.

As for the church doing “something about it”, I most certainly do! I think that each Vicariate should be forced to have one Historically Catholic mass and inform the people of where it is
…
If no one comes, then close it down, but it would be very easy to see how a Diocese wants to worship instead of assuming, this way.

That is certainly something to hope for, but I don’t think you can reasonably “expect” the Church to do this. In some dioceses there are hardly enough priests to rotate around and have a Mass even once a month. To assume that every diocese would be readily capable of this, moreover that it SHOULD do it according to your preference, of course, is an exercise in faith. To build a Church as an experiment and then shut down is a pretty cavalier way to make decisions on limited Church resources.

This is a discussion forum. Of course there are loaded words. If one has documentation to back one’s position, people can judge for themselves. When it’s nothing but emotion and opinion, people see that too.

That’s right, but when you express yourself in a way that involves emotion and opinion, it takes somebody like me to question you until you explain yourself further. Otherwise this is not a discussion, but a lecture.

It’s a pretty bold conclusion you jumped to on my statement on the differences between Protestants, uninformed Catholics and us. You are taking about the people, I am talking about what they do. If someone is innocent of the truth, you are making them less than us. Hmmmm. The Vatican doesn’t think this way and neither do I.

I don’t see it as bold at all. You have been around these forums to know that in general Catholics have very difficult times dealing with Protestants, so in this venue when you say that others are as Protestants, you are in essence saynig they are in the wrong Church. You must take part of the resposibility for this imagery you are transmitting (vague enough and skewed enough from the local norms of discussion that your meaning has to be explained) unless you want to continue to argue back and forth every time you express a thought. There are ways of describing things without using metaphors that are so loaded. For an extreme example, what if someone says to me, “you remind me of Hitler,” not knowing they were only saying I could lead many people, I might at first be reasonably offended. They can say, “well I wasn’t talking about the evil person, just his behavior … it is so bad to say that you are a powerful leader?”

Now I see why my hubby’s friend in RCIA was appalled that we never evangelized non-Catholics. I tried to explain to him about people like you who look down on us for stating that the Catholic Church is the way. I said some thing and you assumed that I was stating that Protestants are “misled by Satan”. LOLOL! Here is an example, that I can print out and show them.

Good God, woman. Is there no end to the depths and subtlety of your judgments and reckless assumptions? You have no idea about me and certainly you underestimate me. This is the real problem why you appear to be judgmental; when you finally make a clear statement it is an open accusation of my motives and it certainly presumptuous and judgmental. I was nurtured a great deal by non-Catholics; until recently it was non-Catholics who healed me from much of the damage my grade school nuns have done.

You seem to be bound and determined to be disagreeable even when we have agreed on the basics. Perhaps you will be more prepared to evangelize Protestants when you quit reading evil into everything others say if you don’t completely understand them and agree with them the first time.

Then you say you can’t evangelize because of Catholics “like me” my dear you are judging not only me but entire categories of your pew-mates.

My friend, stop looking for a “judgemental overtones” and maybe you will see discussions for what they are.

Thank you for the advice, but I do not have to look for the obvious. Occasionally I mess up and assume, then try to reconcile, but then I do something very interesting. I learn from it and don’t do it again.

You have in me a willing an eager and astute listener. You can trash me all you want, but your conversational problems and issues will not leave you until you heed the lessons you get. I’m here for you. Come on down to my level and you might find that many of us are not such bad actors after all.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

ncjohn:

I apologize that I’m sure I sound judgmental here as it is the one thing I strive not to be. But I have to admit that this might be the most insulting thing I have seen in these fora since I’ve been here.

Dear ncjohn,

You don’t sound judgmental. You are desperately trying to prevent Protestants from coming in, telling us our Church is broke, and then dividing the flock even further over insulting each other based on what they look like during prayer. OK – so that was a tangent. What I meant was, you are desperately trying to show how petty this entire argument actually is.

Of course one might ask why I’m involved in it if it is so petty. That’s because I have no problem to “condescend” (ducking for cover) to these sorts of issues to help people with nothing other than this to worry about, realize that it’s not important that everybody in the Church (“catholic as well as Catholic”) does not have to hold their hands a certain way.

After all, not everybody has hands they can fold. Perhaps when we see people in orans position we can rejoice that we were given those hands to offer up to the Lord to do His work. That would be, of course, inventing Church innovations that weed out the judgmes among His flock.

If people would just admit this is a personal preference that is fine. When people say one is superior to the other because of this or that, we have lots of parables to stand against that attitude.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Woo Hoo! We’re most of the way to page 3!!

Alan

p.s. ncjohn, did you ever think I would be accused of being such a staunch, inflexible Catholic that I was a threat to evangelization for my judgment of Protestants?

 

[netmilsmom]

ncjohn:

Gee thanks Anna for the humiliation of thinking that people might be laughing at whatever prayer posture I might be taking. And of course we do it totally as an “affectation” to just “look pious” so people won’t know what sinners we really are.

John, you know I adore you but please understand that we as Christians are laughed at, ignored and disregarded all the time. If you are strong in your convictions, you should look at these statements as a lack of understanding of your point of view. Period.

When I was wearing a chapel cap as a personal sacrifice for the conversion of my husband, I was laughed at, stared at, pointed at, etc. I didn’t care.
The day I took my children down to one of our huge classic Polish churches for a Blessing of the Dance troops and was there with people from all over 4 counties, I thought about not wearing it, but realized that this is part of the deal. Not only was I affected by it, but so were my children. I knew God was watching.

Don’t get upset and chastise, educate instead. Christ was laughed at and mocked. He knew he was right and stood strong.

 

[netmilsmom]

AlanFromWichita:

You have in me a willing an eager and astute listener. You can trash me all you want, but your conversational problems and issues will not leave you until you heed the lessons you get. I’m here for you. Come on down to my level and you might find that many of us are not such bad actors after all.

Alan

Wow!

You can sweetly insult with the best of them and then turn it around to take offense.

I am impressed. Truly.