Help me defend against the "orans" posture

[Deacon_Ed]

Alan,

Ah, but Chaos Theory says that even chaos is ordered, so in point of fact there is not “real” difference between the two images in terms of order, merely a difference of complexity.

Deacon Ed

 

[stjosephtomasi]

Four Simple Church Teachings on Posture

1.   Customarily in the Church a bishop or priest addresses prayers to God while standing with hands slightly raised and outstretched (Ceremonial of Bishops, number 104).

2.   Deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not use gestures or actions which are proper to the priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to "quasi preside" at the Mass (Instruction on Collaboration, Practical Provisions 6 §2).

3.   With a view to uniformity in gestures and postures during Mass, the faithful should follow the directions indicated in the Missal (General Instruction on the Roman Missal #43).

4.   Even a bishop does not have the authority to change the postures of the people. The gestures and posture of the faithful require a decision by the Conference of Bishops and the approval of the Apostolic See (General Instruction on the Roman Missal #390).

SJMT Society for Education in Liturgy, Inc.

PO Box 18863

Erlanger, KY 41018

StJosephTomasi.org

 

[lphelps]

AlanFromWichita:

Impediment to Protestants? :whacky:

I thought it was to eliminate impediments to Catholics having full participation in the Mass.

Either this expert opinion is politically loaded, or Vatican II has sold us a bill of goods. One must defer to the Church teaching, I suppose, and believe the Mass is still valid.

Alan

The man’s name is Dr. Bob Moynihan works as the editor-in-chief of “Inside the Vatican” magazine. He was interviewed by Father Benedict Groeschel on the the EWTN show “Sunday Night Live” which appeared last Sunday and the Sunday before.

 

[lphelps]

Four Simple Church Teachings on Posture

1.   Customarily in the Church a bishop or priest addresses prayers to God while standing with hands slightly raised and outstretched (Ceremonial of Bishops, number 104).

2.   Deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not use gestures or actions which are proper to the priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to "quasi preside" at the Mass (Instruction on Collaboration, Practical Provisions 6 §2).

3.   With a view to uniformity in gestures and postures during Mass, the faithful should follow the directions indicated in the Missal (General Instruction on the Roman Missal #43).

4.   Even a bishop does not have the authority to change the postures of the people. The gestures and posture of the faithful require a decision by the Conference of Bishops and the approval of the Apostolic See (General Instruction on the Roman Missal #390).

SJMT Society for Education in Liturgy, Inc.

PO Box 18863

Erlanger, KY 41018

StJosephTomasi.org

Thanks. In light of that, I will cease and desist in my thoughts of creation of the “olive branches and holy water” peace “tradition”.

 

[lphelps]

AlanFromWichita:

My mother said back when she was young (in Houston, in the 1930s) she and her friends used to sit outside what she called “holy roller” churches and laugh themselves silly when they heard the people inside raising their arms and shouting to the Lord.

She was also taught very specifically that unless her friends converted to Catholicism they would (not maybe but would) go to hell. They took religion with deadly seriousness, but at the same time it was a joke.

Two generations later, we have brought this drama inside the church. I suppose that’s an upgrade to contain it within the building.

Alan

That is funny! My grandmother used to sit on a hill as a young kid in DC next to a “Holy Roller” church and look through the open windows and get the biggest kick out of it. I assume that prcatice has transformed to the 'Speaking in Tongues" and the new thing “Praise Dancing” in Protestant churches. I checked the Internet and there is one Catholic Church that has incorporated into the Mass, teenagers dancing at the altar. It’s sort of interpretive dance. As the Sister used to tell my grandmother’s class in grade school when she didn’t know the answer “It’s a mystery that we shall never FULLY understand”.

 

[Crumpy]

Our faith requires us, at our best, to see Christ in everyone around us – even the kid who just touched his nose and the lady with body odor.

But, I don’t like all this hand-holding and shaking hands. I am more and more inclined to discretely take an alcohol wipe to treat my hands after all this handshaking.

Regarding the hand-holding during the Lord’s Prayer, a priest from the Vatican says that action is not correct, because it anticipates the sign of peace.

Let’s admit it, the arguments in favor of the hand-holding are purely emotional, not religious. There’s plenty of time before Mass and after Mass to socialize. If you want, you can stand outside of the church and shake everybody’s hand!

The biggest proof of our unity is the Eucharist, it is not shaking hands. If you want to show unity, participate in the Eucharist.

 

[ncjohn]

Crumpy:

Let’s admit it, the arguments in favor of the hand-holding are purely emotional, not religious. There’s plenty of time before Mass and after Mass to socialize. If you want, you can stand outside of the church and shake everybody’s hand!

As one of those who does hold hands, let me please give a counter-perspective and maybe allow you to rethink the blanket statement that it is “purely emotional” and “not religious”.

The Mass is both a vertical and horizontal prayer; a prayer of praise and a prayer of petition. While most of the Mass is centered around the vertical, the Lord’s Prayer is the communal prayer of the people. It is addressed to OUR Father, not MY Father.

To at least some of us who hold hands, the symbolism of this petition, in communion with each other, is extremely meaningful. I’ve heard it said that we don’t need that symbolism and that the Eucharist is enough expression of our unity. The truth is though that different people respond to different symbols and different rituals. You may find this one meaningless; others find the beating of the breast meaningless or silly. Some find the posture in receiving communion to be important to them one way or another; or whether we receive in hand or on the tongue to be meaningful.

The Church rightly recognizes that signs, symbols, and rituals are important to us. I’ll continue to say that we’re best off not getting judgmental about which signs, symbols, and rituals others prefer when ours can just as easily be judged. Further, the second we start judging other people’s preferences and motives we immediately put ourselves in a position of judging our own preferences to be superior and ourselves more pious. “Lord thank you for not making me like other men…”

Our family has always found the Lord’s Prayer to be a special time of the Mass for us to pray together as a family. We see those around us at Mass as extended family, and while we would never “push” this on anyone that did not want to participate, we do offer our hands (and our hearts) to those adjacent to us.

I fully understand that some people do not wish to participate. I personally didn’t for many years and purposely positioned myself in the pew so I would not have to. Having been on both sides of the fence, I hold no ill will toward anyone for their preference nor do I consider my way “superior” unless one finds that it brings one closer to God and neighbor.

We really need to get past this stuff of questioning motives and looking on down on each other for these preferences. We are the Body of Christ, and as St Paul said, when one member is hurt, the Body is hurt. I will defend your right to not participate to the death; all I ask is that you not look down on me for my preference.

Peace,

 

[MaryAgnes]

GregoryPalamas:

Holding hands seems a bit schmalty but raising hands to heaven in the Bible and was and is commonly practiced in the East. Theology ought not to be run by rules and regulations.

CDL, Byzantine Catholic.

I agree! While I understand that the postures imposed at Mass contribute to the communion of believers present, the posture a person takes in prayer is intimate–and the Lord’s Prayer, for me, is a very intimate moment. I prefer the Orans posture.

The way I see it, if Communion (a much more significant part of the Mass) is to be administered whether a person is kneeling or standing, in the hand or on the tongue–why such a dispute on a prayer posture?

 

[needmorelight]

This debate about the orans posture is really mind-boggling to me. Here in the Philippines, where I attended a Catholic school as a child I have seen people either pray in an “orans” posture or hold hands during the Our Father ever since I can remember. If you need to “defend” yourself against the orans, try attending Mass here and you’ll probably get a heart attack.

I just think it’s very uncharitable when some of you imply that people who pray in this posture are deliberately going against the Vatican. Almost all of us have been praying in this posture in the Philippines because this is how we were taught. I didn’t realize that this can be offensive to American Catholics until I’ve read some of the threads in this forum.

I asked my mom about this and she told me that the orans was introduced in the 1970’s here in the Philippines probably by the Charismatic community. Okay, so almost all Filipino Catholics are probably ignorant for doing so. Maybe it’s those ignorant Filipino immigrants that introduced this orans posture in the US!

That such a debate on this posture can be quite heated in this forum is remarkable since in my home country, nobody seems to be complaining. Not even our bishops, who had released a statement that they are not forbidding holding hands during the Our Father, mentioned anything about the orans. I gather then that the Vatican has not released a statement explicitly forbidding this posture.

Maybe we do need to have more appreciation for the liturgy and understanding as to why we do or do not do things at the Mass. However, I do agree with ncjohn about questioning motives of others when they pray the Our Father. God can see what’s in our hearts, whether we fold our hands or raise them.

 

[stjosephtomasi]

Regardless of whether you are from the Philippines, Mayberry, New York City or anywhere else, it seems to me that the right response is:

“I did not realize the Vatican taught against this. But now that I do realize it, I will do as my church teaches.”

It is hard to understand why everyone wants to defend his or her practices.

To be catholic is to be obedient.

 

[ncjohn]

stjosephtomasi:

Regardless of whether you are from the Philippines, Mayberry, New York City or anywhere else, it seems to me that the right response is:

“I did not realize the Vatican taught against this. But now that I do realize it, I will do as my church teaches.”

It is hard to understand why everyone wants to defend his or her practices.

To be catholic is to be obedient.

That might be fine if that statement were true. It is not true however as been shown in numerous threads on the topic.

This is not a matter of obedience, except to one’s bishop if one’s bishop has taken a particular stance. It is a matter of charity and humility: charity in allowing individuals their personal preference; and humility in realizing that our way isn’t “superior” to what brings someone else closer to God.

Peace,

 

[stjosephtomasi]

John

If you read a very clear instruction from the Vatican and then choose to follow your own preference instead, then you are failing to obey. It is quite simple.

 

[ncjohn]

stjosephtomasi:

John

If you read a very clear instruction from the Vatican and then choose to follow your own preference instead, then you are failing to obey. It is quite simple.

As I said, if that were the case you would be right.

Nobody yet has come up with any clear instruction and the evidience is clear from 40 years of the Vatican taking no action that there is no clear instruction.

If you have some newly-published document to support what you’re saying I would love to see it. Opinions from some individual do not count as they are not authoritative.

Peace,

 

[stjosephtomasi]

John

please re-read post 179.

all four points are from authoritative documents issued by the leaders of our Church.

Bill

 

[ncjohn]

stjosephtomasi:

John

please re-read post 179.

all four points are from authoritative documents issued by the leaders of our Church.

Bill

Hi Bill,

Can you please cite the documents they come from so they can be read in context. I’m really not trying to be argumentative, but we have substantial evidence from Church documents and from the USCCB that the Church has not taken a position on either holding hands or the Orans position. We further have the fact that the recent Redemptionis Sacramentum, written specifically and thoroughly to deal with liturgical abuses, specifically does NOT address either of these, though they have been in longstanding use and certainly would have warranted inclusion if there was a concensus that they were a problem. Finally we have the longstanding Charismatic liturgies where orans and raised hands are the norm rather than any type of exception. Are you suggesting that the Church’s approval of those liturgies is invalid?

In fact we have evidence that the Church has specifically given permission to some places to use the Orans. That would not be possible if it were a “reserved” gesture. Vatican documents do also specifically give the conferences of Bishops the authority to regulate these things with the approval of the Holy See as you note.

If your point is that a priest, or even a bishop, cannot command a congregation to hold hands or use the Orans, I’m in full agreement. I don’t believe any priest should ever be even encouraging those practices, and if it appears that people are being made to feel uncomfortable, that the priest should be calling for charity in not imposing on someone else. On the other hand, I have seen nothing that allows a priest, or even a bishop, to prevent people from using those gestures during the Lord’s Prayer.

There may come a time when the Church decides to repudiate the use of of one or both of these, though I’m not sure how they would do that without infringing on a family’s desire to pray in union. It would appear at this time though that that has not happened, unless there are documents that haven’t surfaced despite the very dilligent efforts of those who don’t like the practices.

So I will continue to call for charity on the part of all in not forcing their opinions and preferences on others or in looking down on the piety of those whose preferences are different from ours.

Peace,

 

[otm]

Four Simple Church Teachings on Posture

1.   Customarily in the Church a bishop or priest addresses prayers to God while standing with hands slightly raised and outstretched (Ceremonial of Bishops, number 104).

The difficulty in attempting to prove your point here is that it does not address what the laity should or should not do, but only the priest or bishop.
stjosephtomas:

1.   Deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not use gestures or actions which are proper to the priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to "quasi preside" at the Mass (Instruction on Collaboration, Practical Provisions 6 §2).

A) it does not define what is “proper to the priest celebrant”; it is your interpretation that the orans pasture is “proper”.

To say it another way, at various times in the Mass, the priest will have his hands palms together. So do the laity. does the fact that a priest uses a gesture thereby make it a gesture “proper to the priest”? If so, the laity should not put their hands palms together.
stjosephtomas:

1.   With a view to uniformity in gestures and postures during Mass, the faithful should follow the directions indicated in the Missal (General Instruction on the Roman Missal #43).

Again, not responsive to the issue, as there are almost no directions to the laity other than standing, sitting or kneeling (and bowing during the Creed). Again, by analogy to use this, the laity should never fold their hands or put them palms together. You are assuming that the GIRM micro manages every posture; this example alone should disprove that.
stjosephtomas:

1.   Even a bishop does not have the authority to change the postures of the people. The gestures and posture of the faithful require a decision by the Conference of Bishops and the approval of the Apostolic See (General Instruction on the Roman Missal #390).

SJMT Society for Education in Liturgy, Inc.

PO Box 18863

Erlanger, KY 41018

StJosephTomasi.org

Again, non responsive to the issue.

 

[stjosephtomasi]

Hi John

I would be happy to cite the documents they come from so they can be read in context, but I am not sure what you mean. The sources for all of the citations are already given. Please explain what you are looking for and I will try to help.

Can you please show me anything at all to substantiate your claim that the Church has approved Orans in Charismatic liturgies? You mentioned that we have evidence that the Church has specifically given permission to some places to use the Orans. Please clarify this for me. By Church, do you mean the Vatican or certain bishops?

I also call for charity on the part of all who exercise their own opinions and preferences rather than paying attention to the well documented instructions given to us by the Church.

In Christ,

Bill

 

[stjosephtomasi]

Dear OTM

You wrote “The difficulty in attempting to prove your point here is that it does not address what the laity should or should not do, but only the priest or bishop.”

Are you suggesting that everytime the rubrics indicate what a priest should do, they also ought to say (perhaps in parentheses) whether it also applies to the laity? When the rubrics say that the priest raises the host at the consecration, are you confused because the rubrics don’t say whether you should or should not be raising the host too? I think not.

Second, if the rubrics say that a bishop or priest prays with hands extended and then later refer to what is “proper to the priest celebrant,” then it is pretty clear that the orans posture is “proper.”

The Roman Missal is not responsive to the issue??? I agree that there are almost no directions to the laity other than standing, sitting or kneeling (and bowing during the Creed), but rubrics are generally affirmative. They do not list everything we are NOT supposed to do. The rubrics do not tell us that we should NOT eat ice cream during Mass. But since they do not affirmatively tell us to eat ice cream during Mass, we do not do so. They tell us what we should do, not what we should not do.

Whenever I have these types of discussions, I always think of the importance of unity. If this issue is as divisive as it appears to be, based on the multiple posts on this subject, then it indicates to me that perhaps we ought to focus less on what we want as individuals and instead focus on showing our unity not only in what we believe, but also in how we pray, at least during Mass.

Remember that for private prayer, any posture, words, gestures, etc. are fine. But at Mass, we ought to be exhibiting unity in word and gesture.

 

[stjosephtomasi]

John and OTM

Please read this below before replying to the previous posts. Thanks!

Bill

Mass is public, liturgical prayer, which differs from private, personal
prayer. When one prays privately, he can use any words, any books, any
posture (INCLUDING HOLDING HANDS), any time. But for the Mass, EVERYTHING is
prescribed, because the liturgy is the prayer of not just one person, one
family, or even the local community of priest and congregation. It is the
prayer of the entire Catholic community, the entire Roman Catholic Church,
the entire Mystical Body of Christ.
The liturgy is, most assuredly, about more than rules; it is about communion
with the Father through the saving mystery of Christ in the Holy Spirit,
effected by means of sacred words and sensibly discernible sacred signs. But
it is precisely for this reason that the Church takes liturgical norms
seriously.

Rubrics, the directive precepts or liturgical directives found in the
Missale Romanum (Roman Missal), including the sacramentary and lectionary,
and in the Roman Ritual, an official authorized book of the Holy See, are
real laws. They are prescriptions for the good order of external worship in
the Catholic Church and they emanate from the highest authority–the
sovereign pontiff.

Rubrics are not intended to stifle personality or creativity; on the
contrary, they provide the parameters within which one can make the liturgy
truly come alive for God’s people. Rubrics protect the liturgy from
banality, the imposition of idiosyncrasies and material heresy, ensuring
that it does not become the private possession of any one person or group of
persons, but remains the treasure of the entire Catholic community.

 

[ncjohn]

stjosephtomasi:

I also call for charity on the part of all **who exercise their own opinions and preferences rather than paying attention to the well documented instructions ** given to us by the Church.

In Christ,

Bill

Quite frankly Bill, your “superior” attitude in thinking you have all the answers here in spite of the clear evidence to the contrary, and that everyone else is just being obstinately disobedient, tells me that there is no need for me to waste any further time here.

As much as you would like to believe that there are “well documented instructions” from the Vatican, that just purely and simply is not the case, as even the most ardent opponents admit. The GIRM absolutely does NOT address the issue. As otm–and many others along the way in these threads–pointed out, there is no indication of any specific posture there. By your reasoning I can just as easily say it is improper to fold your hands in front of you since nothing in the GIRM says I should. The GIRM does not address postures for the laity beyond, as you admitted, sitting, standing, and kneeling.

The USCCB website specifically says in response to a specific question that there is no prescribed posture during the Lord’s prayer. It doesn’t say “no, that posture is imporoper”. In a *Noticiae * from 1975 which has been often quoted there was a question about substituting holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer for the sign of peace. The answer was no, but again, no comments that there is anything wrong with the holding hands.

I could go on, but as I said I’m not going to waste any further time with this. Maybe it would be wise for you to go read through the previous threads on the subject before coming in here accusing people of disobedience. Making such accusations against devout and prayerful people, with the attendant implication that you are above all that ("Lord, thank you for not making me like those other sinners") isn’t likely to gain you a lot of credibility, at least in my eyes.

At such time as there are clear instructions, we won’t need to discuss any of this any more–except of course for those for want to complain because they don’t like whatever the clear instructions end up being. Up until then, as I’ve said, I understand people’s feelings on both sides, as I’ve been on both sides, and I’ll not be judging anyone else for their preferences and will urge charity from all.

Peace,