Help me defend against the "orans" posture

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I think lying prostrate is a good analogy. It is NOT equivalent to hanging from chandeliers or to eating ice cream (one of my previous - perhaps poor - analogies).

Lying prostrate is a legitimate posture for prayer and is of course done during ordination ceremonies.

But no where in any rubrics for regular Sunday Mass does it indicate that we are or are not to pray in this position.

Does this mean that I am free to use it whenever I want during Mass? In a previous post, someone said I can’t use it when the rubrics clearly say to sit or stand; but if the rubrics are not clear, can I do this?

This may sound silly to some, but I am asking this in all seriousness in charity to make a point. We are all seeking the right answer, the truth.
 
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stjosephtomasi:
I think lying prostrate is a good analogy. It is NOT equivalent to hanging from chandeliers or to eating ice cream (one of my previous - perhaps poor - analogies).

Lying prostrate is a legitimate posture for prayer and is of course done during ordination ceremonies.

But no where in any rubrics for regular Sunday Mass does it indicate that we are or are not to pray in this position.

Does this mean that I am free to use it whenever I want during Mass? In a previous post, someone said I can’t use it when the rubrics clearly say to sit or stand; but if the rubrics are not clear, can I do this?

This may sound silly to some, but I am asking this in all seriousness in charity to make a point. We are all seeking the right answer, the truth.
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As I read the GIRM, the answer would be “no” to your specific question.

usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter2.shtml#sect2
GIRM:
  1. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fraters (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.
They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.
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It appears that we are to stand except for the specific times given for sitting or kneeling.
 
Have you read Peggy Frye’s comments on the Orans position? This was in the Ask an Apologist Forum. John, I suppose we ought to tell Peggy that she does not know what she is talking about.

The Roman Missal does not allow for the faithful to raise their hands in the “orans” position (or hold hands) during Mass. Such posture is reserved for the priest.

Article 6:

§ 2. … In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers — e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology — or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant.”

ICP

Recommended reading:

About That Orans Posture
 
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stjosephtomasi:
Have you read Peggy Frye’s comments on the Orans position? This was in the Ask an Apologist Forum. John, I suppose we ought to tell Peggy that she does not know what she is talking about.

The Roman Missal does not allow for the faithful to raise their hands in the “orans” position (or hold hands) during Mass. Such posture is reserved for the priest.

Article 6:

§ 2. … In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers — e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology — or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant.”

ICP

Recommended reading:

About That Orans Posture
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Again, you are trying to define one or both of those gestures as “proper” or “reserved” to the priest when the Church does not.

You can make all of these arguments you want about why you think these gestures ***should not *** be allowed, but the pure and simple fact is that during the many, many years of their use, even after specifically dealing with abuses in Redemptionis Sacramentum, they have specifically NOT found them to be abuses.

I do not know who Peggy Frye is nor have I read her comments. If you want to provide a link I’ll be happy to read it, but if it’s just more of the “proper to the priest” argument, it still isn’t going to hold up to the fact that there is no authoritative statement, after many requests, sayiing that either or both is not allowed.

Does it really and truly not strike you as odd that the Church would decline to issue a simple statement to get rid of this if they really thought it was an issue, given all the people who have complained and its widespread and long-standing nature?? Do you really think they would address it by putting vague statements that are obviously open to debate in place of a clear statement? Do you really and truly believe that while they were dealing with the subject of abuses that they would have just ignored the most widespread and obvious issue out there for some unexplainable reason? Maybe I’m just naive, but I just cannot in my wildest imagination explain those things away no matter how hard I might try.

As I’ve said, I’ve been on both sides of this at different times, and while my family does hold hands it would be no huge deal if the Church definitively came out against it. Until they do though, I think that those of us who do find it a meaningful symbol are rightfully entitled to be respected and not looked down on, any more than I would look down on anyone who prefers a different approach. Devotion to God is the key here and I will gladly not question yours while respectfully asking that you not question mine, or my obedience.

Peace,
 
no wonder i dont alwats enjot mass whin people are too bust being sourfaced about everyone alses gestures. Post V2 is about us activerly praying thi mass and whin we do the graces are better. Thank God you cannot dictate to us all.
may i suggest that you set up your own church or join the breakaway one.
Alternatively you could try confession for being absessively julgemental lacking charity towards others in mass and missing thi poinr of our faith.
 
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stjosephtomasi:
To: Need More Light

I am NOT saying you are being disobedient.

But I would ask you to read the text below and then indicate whether obedience means listening to your bishops in the case:

Even a bishop does not have the authority to change the postures of the people. The gestures and posture of the faithful require a decision by the Conference of Bishops and the approval of the Apostolic See (General Instruction on the Roman Missal #390).

**
How much clearer can the Vatican be on the issue of posture?
**
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the problem with your quote is that it is non-responsive; there is no position (other than standing) required at that point, so the bishops in making a statement about the orans position are not changing anything. There is nothing predicated to change.
 
Peggy Frye is an apologist for Catholic Answers and has answered this question authoritatively. She wrote:

“The Roman Missal DOES NOT allow for the faithful to raise their hands in the “orans” position (or hold hands) during Mass. Such posture is reserved for the priest.”

If you don’t believe this, then just look it up in the “Ask an Apologist” section of these Forums. This is not my opinion. This is the statement from the people who provide these forums for the rest of us.

That is good enough for me.
 
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stjosephtomasi:
Peggy Frye is an apologist for Catholic Answers and has answered this question authoritatively. She wrote:

“The Roman Missal DOES NOT allow for the faithful to raise their hands in the “orans” position (or hold hands) during Mass. Such posture is reserved for the priest.”

If you don’t believe this, then just look it up in the “Ask an Apologist” section of these Forums. This is not my opinion. This is the statement from the people who provide these forums for the rest of us.

That is good enough for me.
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I took a look, not realizing that what you had posted was the actual statement since you didn’t note it as such. Peggy Frye might be an apologist but that does not enable her to answer anything “authoritatively”, without meaning any disprespect to her at all.

Only the appropriate Congregation at the Vatican or the Pope can say something authoritatively here, either directly or through approval of something submitted by the appropriate conference of bishops. There isn’t even concensus among priests, bishops, or even Cardinals, so it comes as no great surprise to me that allowing people to choose among prayerful postures would be the most natural thing to do.

I’m not saying that there aren’t good arguments to be made in support of your position. I supported your position for many years, although just as it was then it is only a position of our preference. As much as it dismays me that the Vatican has never asked my opinion on these things (and has even ignored it on occasions when I have expressed one! ) it is still their job to rule on these things; we laity only get to express our opinions.

So, in the end, it might be “good enough for you”, but it isn’t authoritative and nobody else is bound by it.

Peace,
 
I am new to the Catholic Church and its form of worship. I was baptized Catholic, but raised in the Assembly Of God. So, hand raising/orans is not foreign to me…but after doing a LOT of reading since I came into the church last November I have decided that I have sided with the “no orans” crowd. My husband, a Cradle Catholic, was appalled at the orans posture at our local church when he started going back after a 23 year absence. His dislike of it played no part in swaying me against it…just all the reading I did.
Anyway, last Sunday I was reading this thread before Mass while I ate my breakfast. I know the congregation uses the orans posture and I see many families holding hands…but I was VERY surprised (after reading all the threads) to see that our new priest holds his hands with his palms together and fingers pointed up straight. This is the only Catholic Church that I’ve ever attended so I have nothing to compare it to. BUT, I do have to say that I read about so many liturgical abuses on these boards and am thrilled that I have never witnessed any of them. (OK, I know some will say that the congregation using the orans position is an abuse, but I mean aside from this topic). I truly love our church and am more and more in awe as I learn more about the Catholic Faith…and I was brought up WAY anti-catholic!!! But now I know the CC is THE BEST THING THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED TO ME and I thank God everyday for the wonderful blessings that have been given to me!!!
-Dawn
 
i realize that exeryone wishes to have strong opinions about everything that everyone else does. if you personally do not wish to, make sure nobody else does either. AND be an authority on every subject and any so that all your personal feelings and prejudices are a burden to those around you. st paul mentiuned this shen he wrote about eating for the Lord and fasting.
Imagine daffodils complainig that the roses should not be red or smell so strong. So whin we are inspired by pryer and full of The Spirit everyone is condemning. Gosh THATS why people go yo church …to sit in judgiment on Gods people.
 
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stjosephtomasi:
Peggy Frye is an apologist for Catholic Answers and has answered this question authoritatively. She wrote:

“The Roman Missal DOES NOT allow for the faithful to raise their hands in the “orans” position (or hold hands) during Mass. Such posture is reserved for the priest.”
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I agree with her. I wish she would call my Bishop and convince him, since he was the one who directed the churches in the Diocese to use the orans during the Lord’s Prayer. But given the choice of obedience to him or her, I guess I have to choose him.

Apparently my Bishop doesn’t browse the Forums. 😉
 
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OhioBob:
I agree with her. I wish she would call my Bishop and convince him, since he was the one who directed the churches in the Diocese to use the orans during the Lord’s Prayer. But given the choice of obedience to him or her, I guess I have to choose him.

Apparently my Bishop doesn’t browse the Forums. 😉
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I sympathize with you there Bob. Although I disagree with Peggy Frye’s conclusion about them not being allowed, everything I have heard and read is that an individual bishop does not have the right to either mandate or prohibit these postures since the authority is delegated to the Conference of Bishops, who have said there is no prescribed position.

As you say though, once a bishop has taken a position, we are called to obey unless or until that position is overridden. Of course that doesn’t mean that you couldn’t contact the USCCB to see if they feel he has that right and ask for intervention if they don’t.

Peace,
 
Hi,

It never ceases to amayze me that this question, (or similar questions-kneeling for Holy Communion is another big deal) pop up so often in almost every Catholic forum.

For the most part there is very little really restrictive instruction on posture for the congregation during Mass. Basically the laity could assume almost any respectful posture during most of the Mass, and it wouldn’t affect the Mass at all. However the GIRM does call for a uniform posture, since this is public worship-
  1. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered.52 Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.
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A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.
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Since the Bishop does have authority where nothing specific is mentioned, and he does usually back up his pastors in these matters, it is best to just do what you are told, or what is the accepted posture for the majority of the congregation
PS40:7
3 sacrifice and offering you do not want; but ears open to obedience you gave me. …
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Star
 
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Ursastar:
GIRM how many peopleknow what this is?

So why not order is to stand to atentiln before mass and then we can al be obeduent to yoi.
How dare you try to make an isue of dusobedence to Gods Wil when it simply not acording to… yours!!!
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I think the GIRM should introduce instructions on spelling! 😃
 
Spell fine . cant type takes Ages.
So whats GIRM? Isn’t obedience something We ourselves try yo achieve wothout imposung our interpretations on others?
Gow many pruests or lay accept the teaching on natural F.P.? There aint mich room for personal interpretation There.
A uniform posture isnt standing to attention but sit kniil stand together.
Too busy prating yo notice much about what everyone else is doing. Igf I dont like something, van be someone, i pray. Please make so&so nicer and more likable, oh And me too and how can i see You in Everyone? Can i have the help to please .
 
UR,

This thread is concerning lay posture during Mass. There is no moral teaching in the instructions, (as would be concerning NFP)

We are given instructions by our pastors & bishops. Since there is no instruction regarding a prayer posture during Mass, you may pray in any respectful manner. However if a pastor or bishop instructs us to use a specific posture, we should obey. Disobedience in this matter may or may not be sinful, depending on other circumstances, but I doubt it could ever be a serious sin.

Star
 
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