Help me defend the intercession of saints!

  • Thread starter Thread starter xspike77x
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
X

xspike77x

Guest
If there is anyone who can provide me with some seriously solid scriptural basis for the intercessory prayer, or asking the saints to pray for us, particularly on whether or not they can actually hear us, please do. I got into a discussion on an evangelical protestant forum on mary and the saints, it was their topic and I simply tried to explain it and met some heavy resistance. In addition, I am outnumbered, if any fellow apologist would kindly lend a hand in defending the intercession of saints, here is the link to the forum:

notreligion.com/index.php?option=com_joomlaboard&Itemid=43&func=view&id=2082&catid=8

thanks and may Christ be praised!
 
xspike77x said:
If there is anyone who can provide me with some seriously solid scriptural basis for the intercessory prayer, or asking the saints to pray for us, particularly on whether or not they can actually hear us, please do. I got into a discussion on an evangelical protestant forum on mary and the saints, it was their topic and I simply tried to explain it and met some heavy resistance. In addition, I am outnumbered, if any fellow apologist would kindly lend a hand in defending the intercession of saints, here is the link to the forum:

notreligion.com/index.php?option=com_joomlaboard&Itemid=43&func=view&id=2082&catid=8

thanks and may Christ be praised!
Click to expand...
Scripture Catholic

scripturecatholic.com

Bible Christian Society

biblechristiansociety.com
 
xspike77x said:
If there is anyone who can provide me with some seriously solid scriptural basis for the intercessory prayer, or asking the saints to pray for us, particularly on whether or not they can actually hear us, please do. I got into a discussion on an evangelical protestant forum on mary and the saints, it was their topic and I simply tried to explain it and met some heavy resistance. In addition, I am outnumbered, if any fellow apologist would kindly lend a hand in defending the intercession of saints, here is the link to the forum:

notreligion.com/index.php?option=com_joomlaboard&Itemid=43&func=view&id=2082&catid=8

thanks and may Christ be praised!
Click to expand...
"Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. "

A living person is more profitable to help you on earth than a dead person.

“Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.”

We don’t find ANY reference to a dead saint interceding on the behalf of a living person in the Bible… in fact, the previous verses allude to the fact that the dead and the living do not have any communication.

"Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. "

The Holy Spirit makes intercession for us… why would anyone plead to a dead Christian leader?

“Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.”

The Holy Spirit is the only one who really knows what you need, and He is the only one who truly knows what you want.

"Rom 8:34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. "

Again, why bother with pleading our case to a dead leader, when Christ Himself sits at the right hand of the Father for the purpose of interceding for us?

What makes you think that the Father would rather listen to one of your saints, when He sent His only begotten Son for the sole purpose of dying and raising from the dead to be your High Priest?

BA

The Christian Billboard
 
xspike77x said:
If there is anyone who can provide me with some seriously solid scriptural basis for the intercessory prayer, or asking the saints to pray for us, particularly on whether or not they can actually hear us, please do. I got into a discussion on an evangelical protestant forum on mary and the saints, it was their topic and I simply tried to explain it and met some heavy resistance. In addition, I am outnumbered, if any fellow apologist would kindly lend a hand in defending the intercession of saints, here is the link to the forum:

notreligion.com/index.php?option=com_joomlaboard&Itemid=43&func=view&id=2082&catid=8

thanks and may Christ be praised!
Click to expand...
check it out now.
 
40.png
bibleapologist:
What makes you think that the Father would rather listen to one of your saints, when He sent His only begotten Son for the sole purpose of dying and raising from the dead to be your High Priest?
Click to expand...
BA

Because the Kingdom of Heaven is a Family. We all pray for one another.

1 Thess. 5:11 - Paul charges us to encourage one another and build one another up, in the body of Christ. We do this as mediators in Christ.

1 Thess. 5:17 - Paul says “pray constantly.” If Jesus’ role as mediator does not apply subordinately to us, why pray at all?

1 Thess. 5:25 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for the elders of the Church. He desires our subordinate mediation.

2 Thess. 1:11 - Paul tells the family of God that he prays for us. We participate in Christ’s mediation because Christ desires this.

2 Thess. 3:1 - Paul asks the Thessalonians to pray for Him, Silvanus and Timothy so that they may be delivered.

1 Tim. 2:1-3 - Paul commands us to pray for all. Paul also states that these prayers are acceptable in the sight of God.

2 Tim. 1:3 – Paul says “I remember you constantly in my prayers.”

3 John 2 - John prays for Gaius’ health and thus acts as a subordinate mediator.

Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)

Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.

Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.

Heb. 12:1 - we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses, our family in heaven. We are not separated. The “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) refers to a great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners (us on earth), and many tiers of seats occupied by the saints (in heaven) rising up like a cloud. The “martures” are not mere spectators (“theatai”), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience to God’s promises and cheer us on in our race to heaven. They are no less than our family in heaven.
 
xspike77x said:
If there is anyone who can provide me with some seriously solid scriptural basis for the intercessory prayer, or asking the saints to pray for us, particularly on whether or not they can actually hear us, please do. I got into a discussion on an evangelical protestant forum on mary and the saints, it was their topic and I simply tried to explain it and met some heavy resistance. In addition, I am outnumbered, if any fellow apologist would kindly lend a hand in defending the intercession of saints, here is the link to the forum:

notreligion.com/index.php?option=com_joomlaboard&Itemid=43&func=view&id=2082&catid=8

thanks and may Christ be praised!
Click to expand...
hi, spike, I have an elaborate essay, if it might help:

catholicmeditations.org/subSites/apologetics/intercession_saints.php

🙂
 
I can provide you with a common sense argument that I’ve used before:

If someone criticises you for asking the Saints to pray for you, turn the argument around and*** ask the accuser this:***
**
“Have you ever asked a fellow Christian to pray for you?” **

Most will say “Yes.”.

Then ask them**, "What’s the difference between me asking a Saint who is alive in Heaven to pray for me versus you asking a fellow Christian who is alive on Earth to pray for you? **

I can guarantee: They will have no counter-argument. You’ll convince them (or at least get them thinking about the truths concerning) other Catholic teachings: 1) The value and meaning of the Communion of Saints 2) That the Church exists in time and in eternity and 3) That the members of the Church go beyond those members whom we can see and touch. The Church is composed of those people who are alive in this life, and in the next.

God Bless!
 
xspike77x said:
If there is anyone who can provide me with some seriously solid scriptural basis for the intercessory prayer, or asking the saints to pray for us, particularly on whether or not they can actually hear us, please do. I got into a discussion on an evangelical protestant forum on mary and the saints, it was their topic and I simply tried to explain it and met some heavy resistance. In addition, I am outnumbered, if any fellow apologist would kindly lend a hand in defending the intercession of saints, here is the link to the forum:

notreligion.com/index.php?option=com_joomlaboard&Itemid=43&func=view&id=2082&catid=8

thanks and may Christ be praised!
Click to expand...
How’s this?:

Intercessory Prayer of Saints
Rom 15:30 - join me by your prayers to God on my behalf
Col 4:3, 1Thess 5:25 - pray for us
2Thess 1:11 - we always pray for you
2Thess 3:1 - finally, brothers, pray for us
Eph 6:18-19 - making supplication for all the saints & for me
Tob 12:12 - angel presents Tobit & Sarah’s prayer to God
Ps 148 - David calls upon angels
Zech 1:12 - angel intercedes for Jerusalem
Mk 12:25, Mt 22:30 - men in heaven are as the angels
Rev 5:8 - those in heaven offer prayers of the holy ones to God
Mk 12:26-27 - he is God of the living, not of the dead
Mk 9:4 - Jesus seen conversing with Elijah & Moses
Lk 9:31 - Elijah & Moses aware of earthly events
Rev 6:9-11 - martyrs under altar want earthly vindication
Heb 12:1 - we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses
Lk 16:19-30 - departed rich man intercedes for brothers
Rev 20:4 - saw the souls of those who had been beheaded
Wis 3:1-6 - the souls of the just are in the hand of God
2Macc 15:7-16 - the departed Onias & Jeremiah pray for the Jews
Jas 5:16 prayers of righteous man
1 Cor. 13:12 - I shall understand fully
1 John 4: 20-21 - whoever loves God must love his brother
1 Cor 12:21 - parts of Christ’s Body cannot say to other parts, “I do not need you”.

Source: geocities.com/thecatholicconvert/biblecheatsheet.html

Let’s look at Rev 5:8

And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

Now, since those in heaven do not yet have their physical bodies, the only way they could be “holding” bowls of the prayers of the saints on earth is mentally.

That’s intercession. We don’t stop caring for one another once we are perfected in heaven.

catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9209fea1.asp
 
You all are misleading this person. The position I took in my earlier post presented the issue of a DEAD SAINT interceding for you.

I don’t have any problem asking someone to pray for me… but it is irresponsible for a “Christian” to pray to a dead person and ask them to approach the throne of the Father for you, when you can approach the throne for yourself.

And if you need an intercessor, we have Christ Jesus who sits at the right hand of the Father…

“Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;”

Because of Christ, we have had the righteousness of Christ imputed to us so we can boldly come to the throne.

“Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.”

If you cannot boldly approach the throne of grace, it might be an indication that you are not saved!

BA
 
bibleapologist said:
You all are misleading this person. The position I took in my earlier post presented the issue of a DEAD SAINT interceding for you.
…BA
Click to expand...
They are more alive than you or me, as they are more united to God.

Not one of your verses negate intercession. By the way, what is going on in Rev 5:8?
 
bibleapologist said:
You all are misleading this person. The position I took in my earlier post presented the issue of a DEAD SAINT interceding for you.

BA
Click to expand...
Where does it say in the Bible Saints are dead? How can you say Christians who died in the state of grace are dead?

Saints are not dead.

Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.

Heb. 12:1 - we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses, our family in heaven. We are not separated. The “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) refers to a great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners (us on earth), and many tiers of seats occupied by the saints (in heaven) rising up like a cloud. The “martures” are not mere spectators (“theatai”), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience to God’s promises and cheer us on in our race to heaven. They are no less than our family in heaven.
 
bibleapologist said:
You all are misleading this person. The position I took in my earlier post presented the issue of a DEAD SAINT interceding for you.

I don’t have any problem asking someone to pray for me… but it is irresponsible for a “Christian” to pray to a dead person and ask them to approach the throne of the Father for you, when you can approach the throne for yourself.

And if you need an intercessor, we have Christ Jesus who sits at the right hand of the Father…

“Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;”

Because of Christ, we have had the righteousness of Christ imputed to us so we can boldly come to the throne.

“Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.”

If you cannot boldly approach the throne of grace, it might be an indication that you are not saved!

BA
Click to expand...
The Bible actually speaks of people interceding for each other countless times. While Jesus is our Intercessor, He also commands us to pray for our enemies during the Sermon on the Mount. St. Paul asks for prayers several times, and informs others that they are being prayed for constantly. All of this is intercessory prayer, which simply means prayer that is offered for another.

In fact, in the very passage which is often used to condemn asking the intercession of the saints, St. Paul commands Christians to intercede for one another: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people…” (1 Timothy 2:1).

God has commanded us to ask one another to pray for each other, and the apostles had no problem asking people to intercede for them in their letters. We can approach the throne of grace, but we can also ask others to approach it for us, or even with us.

Asking the intercession of the saints is like asking the saint to walk with you before God, and to ask God to help you along with you. God created us to love Him and to love one another, and in this moment of prayer both of those desires are fulfilled in the utmost beauty. There, before Him, stand two people whom put their trust solely in Him, loving Him completely so as to approach Him for His blessing, and at the same time so living out His example of love that two poor children of God, two souls who have never met, love one another so much as to approach Him together, one giving of her own time before the glorious face of God but for the sake of the other. How can not the very sight of them humbly approaching bring God Himself to tears?
 
Originally posted by BibleApologist: You all are misleading this person. The position I took in my earlier post presented the issue of a DEAD SAINT interceding for you.
Click to expand...
I’ve hung out with many Protestants. There exists a strange belief amongst them that when we die, our bodies AND souls both go into the ground. Both soul and body are dead until we’re raised again at the General Resurrection. This is an error.

Catholics believe that when a person dies, his soul goes to either Heaven, Hell or Purgatory, and that only the body goes into the ground. Because our souls are immortal, our souls live on, awaiting the General Resurrection when the soul is reunited to the Body. Those Heaven-bound will be resurrected into the image and likeness of the Risen Christ. Those Hell-bound will not be risen in Transfigured form.

Let me ask you this BibleApologist:** When Jesus Christ DIED on the Cross, where did His Soul go? Did His Soul die along with His Body?**

The only reasonable conclusion is this: THERE ARE NO DEAD SAINTS. They’re ALIVE, interceding for us at the Throne of the Almighty.
 
Not to state the obvious BibleApologist but you are thinking like a human. You act as though when we die physically on Earth, if we are saved, that we are considered dead in heaven. Where do you find that in the Bible?

And, at the time the New Testament was written there weren’t a whole lot of Canonized Christian Saints. So, unless you’re 100% positive that Saints cannot pray in heaven, which is anti-Biblical according to many of the quotes in this thread, I would be careful about bearing false witness.

By the way, here are just a few Christians whom you claim are anti-Christian because of there view on Saint intercessions:
St. Francis
Mother Theresa
Pope John Paul II
St. Augustine
hundreds of canonized saints
and about a billion Catholics

God bless you on your journey.
 
xspike77x said:
If there is anyone who can provide me with some seriously solid scriptural basis for the intercessory prayer, or asking the saints to pray for us, particularly on whether or not they can actually hear us, please do. I got into a discussion on an evangelical protestant forum on mary and the saints, it was their topic and I simply tried to explain it and met some heavy resistance. In addition, I am outnumbered, if any fellow apologist would kindly lend a hand in defending the intercession of saints, here is the link to the forum:

thanks and may Christ be praised!
Click to expand...
Why would God desire that His saints have no freedom of action?

Ask your Protestant friends if they can explain the difference between “worship” and “pray to”. If they can’t then ask them how they can have a qualified opinion on this issue.
 
Anybody who has ever gone to the cemetary and spoken to a deceased loved one has prayed to a saint.
 
GoldenArrow said:
I’ve hung out with many Protestants. There exists a strange belief amongst them that when we die, our bodies AND souls both go into the ground. Both soul and body are dead until we’re raised again at the General Resurrection. This is an error.

Catholics believe that when a person dies, his soul goes to either Heaven, Hell or Purgatory, and that only the body goes into the ground. Because our souls are immortal, our souls live on, awaiting the General Resurrection when the soul is reunited to the Body. Those Heaven-bound will be resurrected into the image and likeness of the Risen Christ. Those Hell-bound will not be risen in Transfigured form.

Let me ask you this BibleApologist:** When Jesus Christ DIED on the Cross, where did His Soul go? Did His Soul die along with His Body?**

The only reasonable conclusion is this: THERE ARE NO DEAD SAINTS. They’re ALIVE, interceding for us at the Throne of the Almighty.
Click to expand...
I do not believe in soul-sleep. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

It is still a superfluous to pray to them, or to ask them to intercede on our behalf. THAT IS WHAT CHRIST IS FOR… His resurrection is why we can go to the throne ourselves.

Catholics believe in the spiritual nature of the mass, and the presence of heaven in the mass… but you can’t believe that a Christian can approach the throne of grace because of the righteousness of Christ?

BA
 
BA
but you can’t believe that a Christian can approach the throne of grace because of the righteousness of Christ?
Click to expand...
Who said that we go through the saints exclusively without also going through Christ? I don’t think I have ever met a Catholic who did this.

By your logic, we should not ask anyone to pray for us since they could approach the throne of grace for themselves. Therefore our prayers for them would be superfluous, wouldn’t they?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top