Help me defend the intercession of saints!

[Equus_Pallidus]

The “martures” are not mere spectators (“theatai”), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience to God’s promises and cheer us on in our race to heaven. They are no less than our family in heaven.

Good Post, Change it “Martyr’s” I used it on my blog changed it and linked you.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I do not believe in soul-sleep. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

It is still a superfluous to pray to them, or to ask them to intercede on our behalf. THAT IS WHAT CHRIST IS FOR… His resurrection is why we can go to the throne ourselves.

Catholics believe in the spiritual nature of the mass, and the presence of heaven in the mass… but you can’t believe that a Christian can approach the throne of grace because of the righteousness of Christ?

BA

Catholics believed in receiving the Lord Jesus Christ in the Mass to strengthen their souls spiritually. That is is why we received the eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink his Blood.

Scott Hahn explains this thoroughly.

In this third part of the series Reflections of An Afternoon with Scott Hahn, we´ll begin to delve into the heart of his presentations. Dr. Scott Hahn, formerly a Presbyterian minister, is now a world known Catholic Apologist. The first two parts of this series focused on a question and answer session Dr. Hahn held following his afternoon talks.

Dr. Hahn´s first presentation centered on the typology of the Bible and how the Mass is Heaven on Earth.

He explained typology as being a rhyme scheme. The New Testament is based on the Old Testament and the Old anticipates the New. He pointed out the similarities between Moses and Jesus. Moses had twelve tribes, Jesus twelve disciples. Moses turned water into blood. Jesus turned water into wine. Dr. Hahn said that we know what he then did with wine. Jesus can be seen as the new Moses of the new covenant of the new law.

The last sign Moses performed before the Exodus was Passover. Jesus transformed the Last Supper into the New Passover. One had to eat the Lamb at Passover to ensure safety for the firstborn. Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. He sacrificed himself in the new Passover - in the Eucharist. The Passover of the Old Testament is fulfilled in the Eucharist.

Mass is revealed in the Apocalypse. In the Book of Revelation Jesus is called the Lamb of God 28 times in 22 chapters. Dr. Hahn enlightened us to the fact that the only thing in Revelation on every page is the Liturgy. White robes, songs, prayers. Every page of every chapter the Heavenly Liturgy corresponds to the Earthly Mass. The Rite of Communion is the Marriage feast of the Lamb. I have studied Revelation before, but never seen it in this way until now.

He asked how many of us had read Revelation and maybe a couple handfuls of people raised their arms. Dr. Hahn said that in a Protestant church that number of hands would not be raised! He told us the word Rapture does not appear at all in Revelation. He explained that while our Protestant brothers and sisters have the menu, we have the meal. They´re studying the recipe while we have the main course. He further said that the Book of Revelation is the main recipe for the Lamb of God - for Mass and for the Eucharist. Same songs, same sacrifice, same prayers as in Heaven.

Heavenly Liturgy and Earthly Mass are one in the same. Liturgy in Heaven, however, is far more glorious than can be described. But, he told us; we can go to Heaven here on Earth. That is where we are in Mass.

In sharing his conversion story with us one thing he pointed out was that in a Presbyterian church they only have one reading from the New Testament during their service. At Mass we have readings from both the New Testament and the Old Testament. He concluded this presentation by saying, “We are not New Testament Christians. We are whole Bible Christians.”

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

If there is anyone who can provide me with some seriously solid scriptural basis…

Hi xspike77x,

Is it really necessary to be provided with “some seriously solid scriptural basis”? Can’t the living Holy Spirit teach us anything that isn’t in the bible? I think those Protestants can be so stubborn. They want to reduce our religion to a book (albeit the Bible), even though our religion is deepen than that.

I think you’ll find that Protestants do believe that Satan can tempt us and mislead us to a sinful life. (Maybe a Protestant can correct me on that.) So, if a fallen angel like the Devil can influence us, then why can’t holy angels and saints influence us too? It makes perfect sense for me to ask them for help.

 

[xspike77x]

No trust me I see your point. I do not believe that the bible is the sole source of God’s inspired truth, after all, the bible itself tells us that the pillar and foundation of truth is the church. The reason I ask for scripture is indeed because protestants plug their ears when you present anything that is not in scripture. No matter how much common sense or logic you use, the response is, “ok, but where is that in scripture?” This I’m afraid is rather unfortunate when one realizes how much of God’s truth has been revealed in addition to scripture. I ask simply in hopes to help a fellow christian understand a catholic perspective, in hopes that they might actually listen and not insult me based on what they THINK I believe, but at least on what I actually believe.

 

[JOE_OBERR]

… The reason I ask for scripture is indeed because protestants plug their ears when you present anything that is not in scripture. No matter how much common sense or logic you use, the response is, “ok, but where is that in scripture?” …

Ok, ask them why do they require Scriptural support for a Catholic doctrine? Ask them what is the Scriptural basis for this “doctrine” of the necessity of bible verses to support Catholic doctrine? Ask them for book, chapter & verse.

Also ask them where Jesus says that “ALL Christian doctrine & practice MUST be supported, explicitly or implicitly, from Scripture”? Or words to that effect.

The reason Jesus didn’t say that is because he taught the Apostles ORALLY the Word of God, which he commanded them to do in turn, i.e., to preach & teach the Gospel ORALLY (Mt 16:15-16). This Gospel, the oral Word of God, know as Apostolic Tradition, is the basic source of ALL Catholic doctrine.

This oral Word of God predated the first book of the NT by at least 10 years. And NO one knew what the complete canon of Scripture was until Pope St. Damasus approved the decision of the Council of Rome in 382AD. And remember, there were over 300 books in circulation in the 4th century which claimed to be inspired.

You could also ask them where the bible defines itself, i.e., ask them for the inspired list of canonical books. Of course there is none. Pope St. Damasus defined the canon when he approved the Council of Rome’s list of canonical books. Ask them why they waive the “Scripture alone” doctrine on this point. Which happens to be THE basic point on Scripture, namely, what books constitute Scripture.

The early Christian writers who claimed to have been taught by the Apostles all wrote about the seven sacraments, the necessity of baptism, receiving communion at Mass, belief in purgatory, praying to the saints, going to confession and obedience to the Pope. This is the evidence we have that what the Apostles taught as the Gospel, the oral Word of God, included praying to the saints in heaven. They taught it because Jesus himself communicated it to them.

What the Apostles taught was the Gospel which is today, and was 2,000 yrs ago, known as the Catholic faith. Some of the doctrine and practice of the Catholic Church is supported from Scripture, but not all (e.g., no inspired canonical index of Scripture exists). Nor is Scriptural evidence necessary. Who said it was? Not Jesus.

Scripture is not a catechism but a narrative of salvation history. Doctrinal beliefs and Scripture are distinct, yet closely related as they have the Holy Spirit for their source and end. This is why Martin Luther, the ex-Catholic priest who created the “Scripture alone” theology, had to write his catechisms as he too knew that Scripture does not explain itself nor force its interpretation on anyone.

 

[Liberian]

Spike,

I applaud your efforts over on that other forum. If I may say a word to the wise, though, CA Forums disapproves of posting URLs of anti-Catholic forums here because they want to avoid “board swarm,” where a hundred Catholics descend upon the unsuspecting board and generally mess things up. (After all, if we do it to them, what is to prevent them from doing it to us?)

I don’t have a solidly Scriptural basis for the intercession of the saints in Heaven, but I ask you to consider the opposite:

(1) God is frightfully interested in us, but He has commanded His saints in Heaven to ignore us and to have nothing to do with us.

(2) God knows everything that is going on here and intervenes in people’s lives, but He keeps His saints in Heaven in a total information blackout on the subject. People who have left loved ones here know nothing about how they are doing.

(3) God, Who has commanded us to “pray without ceasing” and to intercede for each other while we are on Earth, forbids us from interceding for each other when we are in Heaven.

As I say, I don’t have a Scriptural basis for the intercession of the saints, but really, the alternatives just don’t pass the “straight face” test.

• Liberian

 

[xspike77x]

Liberian, very good point on the board swarm comment and I do agree that it would be considerate to refrain on doing so in the future and so I will do so no longer. In addition, also good points on considering the opposite.

 

[Gamera]

… but it is irresponsible for a “Christian” to pray to a dead person and ask them to approach the throne of the Father for you, when you can approach the throne for yourself.

I do both. This isn’t an “either / or” proposition. Of course I pray directly to God. And I also ask other people to pray to God for me. Why should I limit myself to just one or the other?

 

[water]

I don’t have any problem asking someone to pray for me… but it is irresponsible for a “Christian” to pray to a dead person and ask them to approach the throne of the Father for you, when you can approach the throne for yourself.

I am sorry I can’t stop reading over and over and over this message and jump to a conclusion: We will be dead when we go to Heaven, I need to talk to my angel to go ahead and put an order on a nice coffin, and find a place in the Heaven for my resting place.

Well, on the second thought, according to bibleapologist, the dead in Heaven seems to be useless, I rather tell my angel …“save the money on the coffin”, it seems that God only hears me while I am living on Earth.

wow, it sounds so right, doesn’t it?

 

[Mannyfit75]

I am sorry I can’t stop reading over and over and over this message and jump to a conclusion: We will be dead when we go to Heaven, I need to talk to my angel to go ahead and put an order on a nice coffin, and find a place in the Heaven for my resting place.

Well, on the second thought, according to bibleapologist, the dead in Heaven seems to be useless, I rather tell my angel …“save the money on the coffin”, it seems that God only hears me while I am living on Earth.

wow, it sounds so right, doesn’t it?

If the saints are dead? I wonder who was Jesus speaking to during his transfiguration. The Bible said, he was conversing with Moses and Elijah. We all know Moses dead.

Was Jesus on drugs when he was speaking to them? Bibleapologist claims that they are dead. Who am I to believe?

water, do you think you might enlighten me?

 

[Abiien]

Before dying both St Dominic and St Therese of Lisieux were talking about intercessory prayer:

“Do not weep, my children, I shall be more useful to you where I am going than I have ever been in this life."

• St. Dominic before “falling asleep in Christ” on august 6th 1221

“I wish to use my Heaven in doing good on Earth!”

• St. Therese of Lisieux

both taken from the catechism on Saints and Intercession of Saints.

The Catechism explains not very openly that those in heaven do not stop interceding.

It also states that saints are “Masters of Prayer,” for they know how to pray best, and it would be nice to go to a saint to learn how to pray, especially Jesus, who is THE saint of Saints, fully God fully Human, hes one who knows how to pray and to pray right. We still say the prayer he taught us, and its so beautiful! (Our Father).

This is what i learned al ittle while ago in adoration.

 

[water]

I am sorry I can’t stop reading over and over and over this message and jump to a conclusion: We will be dead when we go to Heaven, I need to talk to my angel to go ahead and put an order on a nice coffin, and find a place in the Heaven for my resting place.

Well, on the second thought, according to bibleapologist, the dead in Heaven seems to be useless, I rather tell my angel …“save the money on the coffin”, it seems that God only hears me while I am living on Earth.

wow, it sounds so right, doesn’t it?

If the saints are dead? I wonder who was Jesus speaking to during his transfiguration. The Bible said, he was conversing with Moses and Elijah. We all know Moses dead.

Was Jesus on drugs when he was speaking to them? Bibleapologist claims that they are dead. Who am I to believe?

water, do you think you might enlighten me?

If they were dead, then the word “conversing” with Moses and Elijah" must be symbolic. It must be, otherwise there is no point of conversing with the dead. It doesn’t sound right.

 

[Abiien]

I do not believe in soul-sleep. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

It is still a superfluous to pray to them, or to ask them to intercede on our behalf. THAT IS WHAT CHRIST IS FOR… His resurrection is why we can go to the throne ourselves.

Catholics believe in the spiritual nature of the mass, and the presence of heaven in the mass… but you can’t believe that a Christian can approach the throne of grace because of the righteousness of Christ?

BA

What if we dont know what to pray for?
I dont know, but once i asked jesus “Jesus give me everything i need, go before the Father and ask him for everything i need.”
I never (thought that i) got it.
Now Lets say you are having trouble with a relationship. And you ask St. Joseph to pray for you. He knwos how to pray, and you might not? I dont see where im going iwth this. Maybe you dont knwo whats wrong, but they can see it. They took the beam out of their eyes, and they see yours all the more? Maybe not… im just coming up with this as i go. But st Joseph could go to Jesus, the Mediator and ask for specific things. Just as if you asked a friend to pray for you.
Maybe they already do pray for you. It is said that “saints never cease interceding”. Just as your friends might already be praying for you, but imperfect prayer, they cease, they forget, they are flaw-full, where as saints prayer has no flaws anymore, they are “Masters” (CCC 2684?) Saints interceding is inevitable whether you ask for it or not, in my opinion. Therefore it wouldnt be right to say that asking them to pray for you is pointless… what if you ask them to pray for you when you dont understand. You wouldnt go to Jesus and say “Theres something going on, and id ont know what, but help me fix it” if you dont know its happening.

I’m just putting up options for intercessory prayer.

Hope this … is valid haha

God Bless you all.

 

[Mannyfit75]

If they were dead, then the word “conversing” with Moses and Elijah" must be symbolic. It must be, otherwise there is no point of conversing with the dead. It doesn’t sound right.

water,

maybe. What does the Catholic say regarding praying to the dead? Do you have some proof text either by letter, encyclical, Bible or Magisterium?

 

[ElCid]

I hope this would help. What we do is ask the Blessed Virgin and the Saints to pray for us and with us because she/they are promiment member of the church and we are one body - the body of Christ, wherever we may be - in heaven or on earth. Surely we could ask a fellow member of the church to pray for us? If her prayer was effective when she/they were on earth surely their prayers now are more effective when they are in heaven? How can this be? How can they hear you if they are already in heaven? How is this possible? This men and women are already outside of time and space and no longer experience the limitations like we do here on earth. Do we have biblical proof? Here are some:

*Rev 5:13: And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, “To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!” 14: And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped. *

St. John, a man, who was still not yet perfected in heaven, can hear from heaven what is being said on earth, not just every prayer of every human, but every prayer of every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea!

This is impossible for the Blessed Virgin and for the Saints but with the grace of God she/they can do all things with God who gives her/them the strength:

*26Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Matthew 19:26

13I can do everything through him who gives me strength. Phil 4:13*

And nothing is impossible for those who have the faith:

20He replied, “Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” Matthew 17:20

Certainly those who are in heaven especially The Blessed Virgin Mary and the saints are paragons of faith. And they wouldn’t be in heaven in the first place if they didn’t have the faith. Wouldn’t you agree?

It is also erroneous to say that the saints cease to be or are ‘dead’ after they die:

25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:25-26