Help Me - I don't have any answer

[david_patrick]

hi, some observations; there is a lonliness in most of the inquiries in forum posts on average-a lonliness without God/posts are speaking in a certain way; there is a paradox to balance in one’s decisions in life-that of dichotomy, quandry, and dilemma; for insance, a loved sinner-or risk of heaven and hell/it follows, there is human love and divine love; there is a balance in each; there could priority in firstly divine love, then defining action in human love…
check into a dominican suggestion of the body and divinity of Christ; that in so many words to be explained-that when the heart is deprived of blood there is death; but, in reverse-in a spiritual way-in the eucharist…when body (jesus) is accepted/taken with blood; so to these are united-the new life in is the sinner’s heart…posts have mesages by observation/all be it-once cynical-yet paradoxes are resolved and divine love makes a man less lonely…thx patrick

 

[TRH1292]

I was a little confused. I have heard the church teach that it is literal body and blood, and then refer to it as real presence also.

In other denominations I think I understood they said real presence meant Christ was present (spirit?), but they did not believe transubstantiation - literal conversion to literal body and blood.

What really threw me was what seemed to be two different uses of real presence?

I have never heard the term “real presence” refer to anything other than Christ being really present in the Eucharist, that is, his body. Especially in the Anglican Church of C.S. Lewis that was often close to the Catholic Church, real presence always meant that the elements are the actual body of Christ.

 

[boomerang]

I have been exposed to Catholic teaching before, but never really came to faith until I found pastor Greg Laurie and listened to his sermons on line.

He’s a wonderful evangelist and cares for people. I sat thru many a Catholic mass, but they never reached me.

I am looking and considering Catholicism more because my wife is Catholic, and I want to keep our family united.

I have a hard time leaving someone that was so responsible for bringing me to faith in Christ, to go to something that I don’t think ever would have.

I just don’t know what to do.

My other big stumbling block is the Eucharist. I can’t seem to get to it really being his physical body and physical blood.

One of my other favorite teachers is C.S. Lewis. He being Anglican, believed in real presence of Christ in Eucharist, which is much easier to accept than a literal physical body (I am thinking “meat” literally, as that’s what a body is.)

Any help is great - I feel very torn.

Markie- I know exactly where you are coming from. I was an atheist and found God through the sermons of Greg Laurie. I used to attend Calvary Chapel in So. California. The sermons were so edifying and inspiring and I loved going to church there. That’s where I first began to understand the Bible and how all the books in it are connected together. Calvary Chapel made the Bible seem so alive to me, which is not the feeling I had when attending Catholic Mass as an adolescent. These kinds of churches really do feed your soul’s desire for a warm, community type of church-going experience. The sermons are thrilling and inspiring, so I can understand that you do not want to give them up. Well, in my opinion you don’t have to.

Here is my advice for you. Don’t worry about becoming a Catholic. It’s not a prison sentence. You may go to RCIA without giving up Pastor Greg. If your wife is well versed in her faith have her listen with you and point out to you where Pastor Greg’s sermons differ from Catholic teaching, if they differ. Then do your research as to why they differ. Pay particular attention to the early Church Fathers. You will see that they were Catholic.

The Catholic faith is something people come to slowly, over time. It’s a kind of awakening, like a rose slowly unfurling. Don’t let your experience at Mass be the deciding factor. A person must be versed in Church history and beliefs before appreciating the Mass, otherwise it just seems like a senseless, robotic ritual devoid of inspiration. Always remember that we do not go to church to be entertained, which really puts our church at a disadvantage. People demand entertainment everywhere, even in worship. You will not be entertained at Mass. We go for the sacraments that our Lord gave us. The Catholic Church delivers those sacraments.

So don’t look at Mass as some kind of Soviet gulag. Don’t be depressed or worried. There’s no reason to worry. Just go with your wife, ask questions. Listen to Pastor Greg when you need to. Try to understand the ancientness of Catholic worship, which seems very alien in today’s world. And give it time. You are doing a good thing by wanting to keep your family together.

As a study aid, this site is very good: lumenverum.org/ . Click on “resources” at the top. These are all free e-books that are very informative. And here’s a video you might enjoy: youtube.com/watch?v=urLxLj_UU8w.

This is a journey - have fun with it, and may God bless you.

 

[Markie_Boy]

Thanks boomerang - that is so great that you can relate to where I am. Pastor Greg is an exceptional guy.

I’ll keep at it - I am attending RCIA weekly. I can see some of the wisdom and value in what I am learning in Catholicism. But I learn so much listening to Greg - and it’s so inspiring. Is there anywhere that you find that kind of thing in Catholicism?

I’ll try to calm down and take my time. I tend to want to figure everything out right away, but I am not getting the feeling that’s not the way to go here.

 

[ccmcmg]

Thanks boomerang - that is so great that you can relate to where I am. Pastor Greg is an exceptional guy.

I’ll keep at it - I am attending RCIA weekly. I can see some of the wisdom and value in what I am learning in Catholicism. But I learn so much listening to Greg - and it’s so inspiring. Is there anywhere that you find that kind of thing in Catholicism?

I’ll try to calm down and take my time. I tend to want to figure everything out right away, but I am not getting the feeling that’s not the way to go here.

I want to figure out everything right away too! There’s so much to learn, and I want to learn it all and understand it. But I never will…I have to accept that.

I listen to a lot of Scott Hahn; he is inspirational to me. Start out with the Conversion of Scott Hahn. I started out by listening to Catholic talk radio, as well as various Lighthouse Media lighthousecatholicmedia.org/ which is sometimes available for low cost or free in some parishes. Some might also be free for download. Also, Catholicity.com has the aforementioned Scott Hahn talk, as well as 2 CDs by Father Larry Richards: Confession, and The Mass Explained, which helped me greatly as a returning Catholic. Both of them sound very inspirational to me, but I haven’t heard the pastor you have spoken of…these are also free for download!

Welcome to the Faith…welcome home. It’s a journey, not a sprint.

God bless you, and I’ll include you in my prayers tonight.

 

[Aloysium]

A few C.S.Lewis quotes that may or may not make his view clearer:

Next to the Blessed Sacrament itself, your neighbor is the holiest object presented to your senses.

… the very last thing I want to do is to unsettle in the mind of any Christian, whatever his denomination, the concepts – for him traditional – by which he finds it profitable to represent to himself what is happening when he receives the bread and wine. I could wish that no definitions had ever been felt to be necessary; and, still more, that none had been allowed to make divisions between churches.

And let me make it quite clear that when Christians say the Christ-life is in them, they do not mean simply something mental or moral. When they speak of being ‘in Christ’ or of Christ being ‘in them’, this is not simply a way of saying that they are thinking about Christ or copying Him. They mean that Christ is actually operating through them; that the whole mass of Christians are the physical organism through which Christ acts-—that we are His fingers and muscles, the cells of His body. And perhaps that explains one or two things. It explains why this new life is spread not only by purely mental acts like belief, but by bodily acts like baptism and Holy Communion. It is not merely the spreading of an idea; it is more like evolution—a biological or superbiological fact. There is no good trying to he more spiritual than God. God never meant man to be a purely’ spiritual creature. That is why He uses material things like bread and wine to put the new life into us. We may think this rather crude and unspiritual. God does not: He invented eating. He likes matter. He invented it.

 

[fhansen]

I have been exposed to Catholic teaching before, but never really came to faith until I found pastor Greg Laurie and listened to his sermons on line.

He’s a wonderful evangelist and cares for people. I sat thru many a Catholic mass, but they never reached me.

I am looking and considering Catholicism more because my wife is Catholic, and I want to keep our family united.

I have a hard time leaving someone that was so responsible for bringing me to faith in Christ, to go to something that I don’t think ever would have.

I just don’t know what to do.

My other big stumbling block is the Eucharist. I can’t seem to get to it really being his physical body and physical blood.

One of my other favorite teachers is C.S. Lewis. He being Anglican, believed in real presence of Christ in Eucharist, which is much easier to accept than a literal physical body (I am thinking “meat” literally, as that’s what a body is.)

Any help is great - I feel very torn.

Don’t feel torn-Catholicism embraces and encompasses all Christian truth; you’re betraying no one to the extent they hold to those truths-and good speakers aren’t outlawed by Catholicism even though the Mass isn’t where you’ll generally find them. We’re simply bound to hold to the historic Christain faith in any case-everything else is counterfeit to one degree or another. Read Cardinal John Henry Newman, another Anglican, before he converted to the true faith. Quite inspiring.

 

[boomerang]

Thanks boomerang - that is so great that you can relate to where I am. Pastor Greg is an exceptional guy.

I’ll keep at it - I am attending RCIA weekly. I can see some of the wisdom and value in what I am learning in Catholicism. But I learn so much listening to Greg - and it’s so inspiring. Is there anywhere that you find that kind of thing in Catholicism?

I’ll try to calm down and take my time. I tend to want to figure everything out right away, but I am not getting the feeling that’s not the way to go here.

It’s good to take your time. The Catholic Church is not a fly-by-night. Everything they do is measured in centuries. There is so much depth here that a person could study the Church for a lifetime and never reach the bottom of it. The saints, the martyrs, the miracles, the apparitions, the modern calendar that the whole world uses (Gregorian calendar), the Big Bang theory, all gifts of the Catholic Church. 36 craters on the moon are named after Jesuit priests! It just goes on and on. The Church has truly been the backbone of Western Civilization. Even the Crusades and Inquisition had some positive aspects. They kept the Muslims and heretics from overrunning Europe.

If you want to hear some good sermons, give Bishop Fulton Sheen a try. This is a good one: youtube.com/watch?v=FuCw8UT5y6c. Try not to be put off by his somewhat creepy demeanor. It used to really get to me at first, but when I finally forced myself to look past the Bela Lugosi-like theatrics, I was just stunned at his brilliance . He’s one of the best, and was a super-star in the 1950’s with his TV show, which out-rated even Milton Berle! It’s hard to imagine a time in this country when a Catholic bishop was prime time material. What a different world we live in now. Another good one is Fr. George W. Rutler: youtube.com/watch?v=vuTtqCUORIs. He’s another one that seemed creepy to me at first until I actually gave him my undivided attention, and then I was sucked in. You can find him occasionally on EWTN.

 

[CalCatholic]

Thanks boomerang - that is so great that you can relate to where I am. Pastor Greg is an exceptional guy.

I’ll keep at it - I am attending RCIA weekly. I can see some of the wisdom and value in what I am learning in Catholicism. But I learn so much listening to Greg - and it’s so inspiring. Is there anywhere that you find that kind of thing in Catholicism?

I’ll try to calm down and take my time. I tend to want to figure everything out right away, but I am not getting the feeling that’s not the way to go here.

**Rev. Robert Barron has a website www.wordonfire.org **He has weekly Sunday sermons on line and a lot more. He put together **the ‘Catholicism’ series **which is a 10 part series about the beliefs of the Catholic Church and it is filmed all over the world. Each episode is less than one hour in length, and would be great for you and your wife to watch together. I use this series in my RCIA classes. Robert Barron is also all over youtube!

 

[Markie_Boy]

We actually own Fr. Barron’s Catholicism set - it’s excellent - best Catholic teaching I have ever seen!

 

[Contarini]

So C.S. Lewis believed in Transubstantiation and the same Eucharist as the Catholic church?

Lewis, like many Anglicans, had a vaguer position than that of the Catholic Church. He certainly believed in the Real Presence in some form, though.

I think that the words “physical” and “literal” are unhelpful. Catholic teaching about the Presence is actually quite complex and clearly isn’t “literal” in the sense of “straightforward.” Catholics say that the presence is “literal” as a way of saying simply that it’s real, not a metaphor. The traditional technical language is that the substance is transformed. However, the concept of “substance” is borrowed from Aristotle’s philosophy and doesn’t make a lot of sense to most modern people (while the way the Church uses it wouldn’t have made any sense to Aristotle). I think that this is a good thing. The Eucharist breaks down our distinctions between physical and spiritual, between earth and heaven, even between one person and another (because we feed on Christ but not in a way that involves consuming Him and making Him part of us–rather we become transformed into Him as members of His body).

It’s mystical, but not in a way that can just be reduced to vague “spiritual” language. It’s real and concrete, but not physical in a way that can be measured by the senses or by scientific instruments (there are “Eucharistic miracles,” but these are separate miracles to demonstrate the reality of the Eucharist, not that reality itself, and I’m not sure that Catholics are actually required to believe in them anyway).

It’s paradoxical–it challenges our very picture of reality. Hence I think Catholics ill-serve the Church’s teaching when they describe it as a simple “literal presence” of Jesus’ Body and Blood.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

It’s good to take your time. The Catholic Church is not a fly-by-night. Everything they do is measured in centuries. There is so much depth here that a person could study the Church for a lifetime and never reach the bottom of it.

Indeed. I have been exploring Catholicism for nearly twenty years now. I wish I had just converted when I first became interested in the 90s, but the way’s the way, and there’s an end.

Edwin

 

[shortfuse]

Markie Boy, you are being called by God. hearing the Word leads to faith in Christ. Today is the day of salvation…do not delay. Jesus said He came to divide houses. Run to the Lord. Compare what has been already done for you on the Cross, Jesus said “it is finished” compared to what you must do in the Catholic religion. do 4 hail Marys 5 our fathers, the rosary, confess to some man you did not sin against, not eat meat or some other food or drink, free yourself and your family from religion and tradition which God says He hates. For there is one mediator between man and God, the Son Christ Jesus. it’s not the pope, it’s not Mary, it not dead saints, it’s not priests, fathers sisters, nuns, mother’s it’s Jesus, all others are worthless, the Old Covenant is torn down, the curtain , ripped in two, exposed behind the curtain is The Work Of Jesus on the Cross. Free yourself from works that you will never know if they were enough, rest on the words of Jesus…“IT IS FINISHED” . I wish you could talk to my wife a former Catholic, it will make you cry what she suffered through as a Catholic, until she found freedom in Christ that was not taught to her as a Catholic. All they did was repeat sayings over and over and over.

 

[CalCatholic]

Well it sounds like you have all the answers shortfuse. Who needs a Church that has existed for two thousand years? Who needs the early Church Fathers who reflect the Traditions of the first century Church? Who needs the Church that canonized that Bible that you probably claim has sole authority for your non denominational Christian faith? Where does the authority for your church come from? Where are those views reflected in two thousand years of Christian history?

 

[boomerang]

Markie Boy, you are being called by God.

Yes, God is calling, Markie. God was calling you to marry a Catholic woman and to raise your children Catholic. God does not make mistakes. 21 years ago, I got face down on the floor and prayed for God to send me a husband. Three months later, a man I had never seen before came into my restaurant and ordered a sandwich and sat down. He was the only customer in the place, the whole restaurant was deathly quiet. As God is my witness, I suddenly heard a loud, audible voice coming from directly behind me that stated matter-of-factly,“You’re going to marry him”. I nearly leapt out of my skin. There was no one behind me. No one visible, that is. The next day, that same man came back in to my restaurant and asked me out on a date. He confessed to me that the night before (the same day I heard the voice) he had the strangest dream. In the dream, he was standing alone in a room when suddenly he heard a disembodied voice call out “You have just met your wife”. He woke up right then and felt very warm, happy and content, and knew the dream was about me. He came right in to my restaurant as soon as it opened and asked me out. And guess what? Shortfuse will love this: I was a fallen-away Catholic, and this man (now my husband) was a devout Catholic and he led me right back into the One, Holy, Catholic Apostolic Church. Of all the men God could have sent me, it was a Catholic. Enough proof for me. Go with God, Shortfuse. I’ll say a prayer for you.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Here is a link to the Catechism which talks about the Eucharist as the source and summit of our faith and all sorts of good stuff on the Sacrament.

Also this paragraph specifically discusses the Real Presence:

1374 The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as “the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend.” In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist “the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained.” “This presence is called ‘real’ - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present.”

I agree with the earlier poster that we do not use “physically” present when we talk about the Eucharist because there is so much more to it. It is the glorified Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. That is more than physical.

Possibly what you might not be able to get your head around, as so many cannot, is the idea of cannibalism or eating flesh and drinking blood. First of all, you need to know that cannibalism is eating dead human flesh. We are receiving the glorified Body of Christ-- the one that could walk through doors. We don’t know everything about the mystery-obviously- but we do know that when Jesus gave His bread of life discourse, many people took Him at His word and couldn’t handle it. (Jn 6:66) They left Him and He did not stop them and say “Wait! I was speaking figuratively!”. We do know that Jesus said “I AM the Way, and the Truth and the Life” (Jn 14:6) as well as saying “unless you eat My flesh and drink My blood you have no life in you” (Jn 6:53) and “my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink”.(Jn 6:55)

What is interesting is that in ancient times, if you drank the blood of an animal, it was thought that you were drinking their “life”. This is reflected in Leviticus 17:11 “For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.” Think about what Jesus said He is… He is the LIFE! To drink His blood is to drink the Divine Life! That is why He said if you do not eat His flesh and drink His blood you have no life in you. As to eating the flesh, covenants were always sealed with eating a meal. At Passover, they ate the spotless lamb. Jesus is the Lamb. Catholic Eucharistic theology can be explained in the study of the Old Testament and New Testament together. But may people focus solely on the NT and they don’t take the context of the OT into account.

Try reading “Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist” by Brant Pitre and “The Lamb’s Supper” by Scott Hahn. I also found that reading the writings of the Church Fathers immensely helpful in discovering that it was always believed that the Eucharist was the Real Presence of Christ (though they did not have the expression transubstantiation at the time).Since I am such a history buff, I think it was the historical factor that initially convinced me that the Church was teaching the truth. That came before my study of the Scriptures. When I read “Four Witness” by Rod Bennett I saw that the worship of the earliest Christians was Catholic. Even archeology supports the teaching of the Eucharist. When they dig up ancient Christian Churches they always have one thing in common-- an alter.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

First off, WELCOME Markie Boy!

Now, below is from a “cheat sheet” I use when debating the doctrine of the Real Presence online–it also has a link to an article I wrote about the Bread of Life Discourse

About mid-way through his 3 year ministry, Jesus gives his “Bread of Life Discourse” in John 6. This strait-out sermon (NOT a parable and flat out NOT a metaphor or simile) so upsets his listeners that MOST of his followers abandon him at this point in his career (6:66)

"‘Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’ So Jesus said to them, ‘Truly truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed’" (John 6:47-55).

religion.wikia.com/wiki/Catholic_Exegesis_of_John_6,_%22Bread_of_Life_Discourse%22 ]

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Also from my “cheat sheet”:

“Transubstantiation” is a related doctrine defending the Real Presense but it is NOT the same thing. Transubstantiation was formaly defined and declared (but NOT invented see below) in the 12th Century to refute both the before mentioned 11th C. challenges and the false teachings of the Albigensian-Cathar Gnostics (who were demonstrably NOT “hidden bible christians”, despite the claims of either Foxe’s Book of Martyrs or Jack Chick).

It should also be strongly stated that Christian groups which seperated from union with the Bishop of Rome (Nestorians in 431, Copts in 481, Orthodox in 1054) BEFORE the the doctrine of Transubstantiation was formaly pronounced STILL utterly believe and teach in the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the consecrated Eucharist. So to conflate the two doctrines as the same exact thing and claim that it was not believed by Christians or not taught by the Church until the 12th century is an “ad ignorantum” fallacy of the first order.

While not then called “Transubstantiation”, the understanding of this clarifying teaching goes back to AT LEAST the early years of the 4th century:

“The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ…Do not regard the bread and the wine as simply that; for they are, according to the Master’s declaration, the body and blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste but be fully assured by the faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the body and blood of Christ…[being] fully convinced that the apparent bread is not bread, even though it is sensible to the taste, but the body of Christ, and that the apparent wine is not wine, though the taste would have it so…partake of that bread as something spiritual, and put a cheerful face on your soul” St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechial Lectures 19;7, 22:6, 9; circa 305 AD

*“When [Jesus Christ] gave the bread he did not say “This is a symbol of my body”, but “This is my body”. In the same way when he gave the cup of his blood he did not say “This is a symbol of my blood” but, “This is my blood”, for he wanted us to look upon [the bread and the wine confected in the Eucharistic Liturgy], after their reception of grace and the coming of the Holy Spirit, not according to their nature [sensible appearances], but to receive them as they are, the body and blood of our Lord”
*Bishop Theodore of Mopsuestia, Catechetical Homilies 5:1, circa 405 AD

 

[shortfuse]

Well it sounds like you have all the answers shortfuse. Who needs a Church that has existed for two thousand years? Who needs the early Church Fathers who reflect the Traditions of the first century Church? Who needs the Church that canonized that Bible that you probably claim has sole authority for your non denominational Christian faith? Where does the authority for your church come from? Where are those views reflected in two thousand years of Christian history?

did I say something that was not correct? Your claims are based on what your Catholic religion has told you. Tradition means nothing , the Pharisee’s had tradition and it left them blinded. the authority that I speak of comes from scripture, not some man in Rome 1,000’s of miles away who is unapproachable like the Pharisee’s, or some man in a booth behind some screen telling me what I need to “do” as a act of work to be forgiven.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

did I say something that was not correct? Your claims are based on what your Catholic religion has told you. Tradition means nothing , the Pharisee’s had tradition and it left them blinded. the authority that I speak of comes from scripture, not some man in Rome 1,000’s of miles away who is unapproachable like the Pharisee’s, or some man in a booth behind some screen telling me what I need to “do” as a act of work to be forgiven.

Tradition means nothing? That is not even biblical and here I thought you were obedient to the teachings of the Scriptures. We are told in the Scriptures to hold fast to the traditions–both oral and written. 2 Th 2:17 You should ask yourself why you think tradition means nothing, when clearly Scripture thinks Tradition is something. This is a good example of distorting the Scripture-- hopefully not to your own destruction. (cf 2 Pt 3:16)

As to your other assertion about doing a work to be forgiven (or any of your other assertions in your previous post), I can only respond that you should open a new thread. You express a lot ignorance about what the Church actually teaches. For example, penance has nothing to do with forgiveness.