Help Me - I don't have any answer

[CalCatholic]

did I say something that was not correct? Your claims are based on what your Catholic religion has told you. Tradition means nothing , the Pharisee’s had tradition and it left them blinded. the authority that I speak of comes from scripture, not some man in Rome 1,000’s of miles away who is unapproachable like the Pharisee’s, or some man in a booth behind some screen telling me what I need to “do” as a act of work to be forgiven.

Just like I said, your authority comes from the very scriptures that the Catholic Church assembled and canonized 1700 years ago!

 

[fhansen]

did I say something that was not correct? Your claims are based on what your Catholic religion has told you. Tradition means nothing , the Pharisee’s had tradition and it left them blinded. the authority that I speak of comes from scripture, not some man in Rome 1,000’s of miles away who is unapproachable like the Pharisee’s, or some man in a booth behind some screen telling me what I need to “do” as a act of work to be forgiven.

Your claims are based on private interpretation of scripture

 

[Modern_Revert]

Over the years, I’ve known a number of people who married non-Catholics and were then brow-beaten into renouncing their faith. That’s how they were “saved” out of their religion.

 

[zz912]

Markie Boy, you are being called by God. hearing the Word leads to faith in Christ. Today is the day of salvation…do not delay. Jesus said He came to divide houses. Run to the Lord. Compare what has been already done for you on the Cross, Jesus said “it is finished” compared to what you must do in the Catholic religion.

I’m not sure you are a good source for information on the Catholic faith. You post give evidence of great ignorance of the Christian faith.

do 4 hail Marys 5 our fathers, the rosary,

Just as I suspected, you have much incorrect in your understanding of the Christian faith. Praying the rosary is an optional devotion that helps us to focus on Christ by imagining ourselves in the footsteps of Mary. No one is required to pray it. And I’m confused on your complaints about praying the Our Father. Considering it is the prayer Jesus taught us, why would you not pray it?

confess to some man you did not sin against,

Scripture tells us to confess our sins to “some man” that we did not sin against. You should re-read your Bible.

not eat meat or some other food or drink,

Jesus gives us instructions on WHEN we are fasting, not IF. Why do you not fast or abstain as He commanded?

free yourself and your family from religion and tradition which God says He hates.

God said that? Citation please for where God says He hates all tradition, b/c the Bible tells us to hold to the tradition passed to us from the Apostles.

For there is one mediator between man and God, the Son Christ Jesus. it’s not the pope, it’s not Mary, it not dead saints, it’s not priests, fathers sisters, nuns, mother’s it’s Jesus,

The Christian faith agrees with the religion of shortfuse, that there is one mediator between man and God. Again this speaks to your ignorance of the Christian faith.

And saints are not dead, as God is God of the living, not of the dead. Re-read your Bible.

all others are worthless,

Worthless??? God doesn’t think anyone is worthless. How in the world are you part of the Body of Christ, and call parts of His Body worthless? I seem to remember St. Paul telling us about how the hand cannot tell the feet it has no use for you. Re-read your Bible.

the Old Covenant is torn down, the curtain , ripped in two, exposed behind the curtain is The Work Of Jesus on the Cross.

The Old Covenant is not torn down, it was perfected and completed with the installation of the New Covenant. Are you aware of the New Covenant? What requirements does it place on those that wish to become part of it?

Free yourself from works that you will never know if they were enough, rest on the words of Jesus…“IT IS FINISHED” .

Jesus was referring to the Last Supper. He completed it when He drank the wine on the Cross, ending the sacrifice. There is much more to the New Covenant than this. You should REALLY read 1 John 2, and ponder over what it says about IF you follow God’s commands. That is a BIG word “if”.

I wish you could talk to my wife a former Catholic, it will make you cry what she suffered through as a Catholic, until she found freedom in Christ that was not taught to her as a Catholic. All they did was repeat sayings over and over and over.

Again more ignorance of the Christian faith. And I will say a prayer for you and your wife to come to the truth.

 

[david_patrick]

if this helps, The our Father can be public and private, for personal prayer-i use it as a template-adding the spanish version to the ending, as in ‘liberate us from malice’…(as follows direct cause/effect) because of my admitted pride, isolation, cynicism, and skepticism-i over lap the Our Father…with asking to know how to pray…so, admittedly…i repeat it often …and had gotten a bit laxed on it’s power…perhaps-i slow it down a bit more of recent-to confess-i get a bit sleepy, as the soul goes-and a refreshing review of it-might awaken me…thx patrick (the part of it-‘lead us not into temptation’ has always been a bit confusing-i need more work there)

 

[Markie_Boy]

Also from my “cheat sheet”: “Transubstantiation” is a related doctrine defending the Real Presense but it is NOT the same thing. Transubstantiation was formaly defined and declared (but NOT invented see below) in the 12th Century to refute both the before mentioned 11th C. challenges and the false teachings of the Albigensian-Cathar Gnostics (who were demonstrably NOT “hidden bible christians”, despite the claims of either Foxe’s Book of Martyrs or Jack Chick). It should also be strongly stated that Christian groups which seperated from union with the Bishop of Rome (Nestorians in 431, Copts in 481, Orthodox in 1054) BEFORE the the doctrine of Transubstantiation was formaly pronounced STILL utterly believe and teach in the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the consecrated Eucharist. So to conflate the two doctrines as the same exact thing and claim that it was not believed by Christians or not taught by the Church until the 12th century is an “ad ignorantum” fallacy of the first order. While not then called “Transubstantiation”, the understanding of this clarifying teaching goes back to AT LEAST the early years of the 4th century: “The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ…Do not regard the bread and the wine as simply that; for they are, according to the Master’s declaration, the body and blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste but be fully assured by the faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the body and blood of Christ…[being] fully convinced that the apparent bread is not bread, even though it is sensible to the taste, but the body of Christ, and that the apparent wine is not wine, though the taste would have it so…partake of that bread as something spiritual, and put a cheerful face on your soul” St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechial Lectures 19;7, 22:6, 9; circa 305 AD *“When [Jesus Christ] gave the bread he did not say “This is a symbol of my body”, but “This is my body”. In the same way when he gave the cup of his blood he did not say “This is a symbol of my blood” but, “This is my blood”, for he wanted us to look upon [the bread and the wine confected in the Eucharistic Liturgy], after their reception of grace and the coming of the Holy Spirit, not according to their nature [sensible appearances], but to receive them as they are, the body and blood of our Lord” *Bishop Theodore of Mopsuestia, Catechetical Homilies 5:1, circa 405 AD

So - for my feeble mind to comprehend - are Transubstantiation of today and Real Presence of the early church the same or not? If not - why would we not stick with Real Presence - it’s easier for me to accept, and I don’t feel it would be any less powerful.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

So - for my feeble mind to comprehend - are Transubstantiation of today and Real Presence of the early church the same or not? If not - why would we not stick with Real Presence - it’s easier for me to accept, and I don’t feel it would be any less powerful.

The same thing is happening today as it was in the early Church. In later years, theologians have attempted to explain it in a way that shows that Jesus Christ is really and truly present–Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. The name they used for that is “transubstantiation” but it is still the same, umm, process, so to speak.

It is interesting that the two Apostolic Churches-- Catholic and Orthodox believe that Jesus is really and truly present in the Eucharist. I think the Orthodox have another name for it. Anyway, my point is that the two Churches (which were at one time united) that can trace their roots all the way back to Christ believe the same thing about what He said at the Bread of Life discourse and the Last Supper. It is over 1500 years later that the view changed due to various private interpretations of Scripture. When you read the Church Father’s you will see overwhelming support for the Real Presence.

Here are a couple of examples

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

“For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

“For the blood of the grape–that is, the Word–desired to be mixed with water, as His blood is mingled with salvation. And the blood of the Lord is twofold. For there is the blood of His flesh, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and the spiritual, that by which we are anointed. And to drink the blood of Jesus, is to become partaker of the Lord’s immortality; the Spirit being the energetic principle of the Word, as blood is of flesh. Accordingly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. And the one, the mixture of wine and water, nourishes to faith; while the other, the Spirit, conducts to immortality. And the mixture of both–of the water and of the Word–is called Eucharist, renowned and glorious grace; and they who by faith partake of it are sanctified both in body and soul.” Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 2 (ante A.D. 202).

 

[shortfuse]

Over the years, I’ve known a number of people who married non-Catholics and were then brow-beaten into renouncing their faith. That’s how they were “saved” out of their religion.

I love your quote, no offense taken, my wife was a catholic, she was saved first, then I was saved. I would love to tell you how, if you would like to know, I hope you will allow me. It’s a true work of God and how John 3 really works after hearing the Word.of God. I will wait for your response.

 

[Modern_Revert]

I must respectfully decline.

 

[zz912]

I love your quote, no offense taken, my wife was a catholic, she was saved first, then I was saved. I would love to tell you how, if you would like to know, I hope you will allow me. It’s a true work of God and how John 3 really works after hearing the Word.of God. I will wait for your response.

Are you holier than St Paul? He spoke of working out his salvation in fear and trembling, and how he still hoped to be saved. Why do you speak as if you have already received your final judgment?

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

I love your quote, no offense taken, my wife was a catholic, she was saved first, then I was saved. I would love to tell you how, if you would like to know, I hope you will allow me. It’s a true work of God and how John 3 really works after hearing the Word.of God. I will wait for your response.

Feel free to open a new thread on the subject if you wish, but we already know there is only one Way to be saved and that is by the grace of God merited for us by Jesus Christ on the cross. It is His blood which atoned for all of our sins and it is He Who asked the Father to send forth the Holy Spirit Who sanctifies us. We believe faith is necessary for salvation (Eph 2:8-9), but that faith must be alive (Jas 2:17). We most certainly do not believe we have to do works to gain forgiveness.

If you do open a thread, be prepared to learn the truth about Catholic teaching. It is clear you have fallen victim to falsehoods on several points.

 

[Miriam1947]

I love your quote, no offense taken, my wife was a catholic, she was saved first, then I was saved. I would love to tell you how, if you would like to know, I hope you will allow me. It’s a true work of God and how John 3 really works after hearing the Word.of God. I will wait for your response.

You gave up the Eucharist for what exactly? And all the sacraments as well.

How very very sad. I feel sorry for you and your wife.

 

[CarolNoel]

You gave up the Eucharist for what exactly? And all the sacraments as well.

How very very sad. I feel sorry for you and your wife.

Yes. How very, very sad for both of you.

 

[fisherman_carl]

My other big stumbling block is the Eucharist. I can’t seem to get to it really being his physical body and physical blood.

One of my other favorite teachers is C.S. Lewis. He being Anglican, believed in real presence of Christ in Eucharist, which is much easier to accept than a literal physical body (I am thinking “meat” literally, as that’s what a body is.)

In what way is it easier to accept? What do you think “real presence” means? How is it real? And the presence of what? Christ in spirit? Christ in reality? Christ in ones mind? Or the real presence of Christ, all of him, body, blood, soul, and divinity?

Here is what the early Christians believed
crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/532/Sunday_Eucharist_in_the_Early_Church_St._Justin_Martyr.html

 

[poche]

Jesus said;
26

Jesus answered them and said, "Amen, amen, I say to you, you are looking for me not because you saw signs but because you ate the loaves and were filled.

27

Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life, 15 which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father, God, has set his seal."

28

So they said to him, “What can we do to accomplish the works of God?”

29

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent.”

30

So they said to him, "What sign can you do, that we may see and believe in you? What can you do?

31

16 Our ancestors ate manna in the desert, as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’"

32

So Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.

33

For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

34

So they said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”

35

17 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst.

36

But I told you that although you have seen (me), you do not believe.

37

Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me,

38

because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me.

39

And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day.

40

For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day."

41

The Jews murmured about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven,”

42

and they said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph? Do we not know his father and mother? Then how can he say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

43

Jesus answered and said to them, "Stop murmuring 18 among yourselves.

44

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day.

45

It is written in the prophets: ‘They shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me.

46

Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father.

47

Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

48

I am the bread of life.

49

Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;

50

this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.

51

I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."

52

The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”

53

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

54

Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

55

For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

56

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

57

Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.

58

This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."

59

These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

60

20 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”

61

Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you?

62

What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 21

63

It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh 22 is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

64

But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.

65

And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”

66

As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

67

Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”

68

Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

69

We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God."

John6:26-69

 

[mardukm]

My other big stumbling block is the Eucharist. I can’t seem to get to it really being his physical body and physical blood.

The common understanding is that Christ is physically present not in a corporeal manner, but in a Sacramental manner.

Does that help?

Also, you do not need to give up Greg Laurie’s inspirational and true teachings about Christ. Just give up his wrong teachings about Christ and the Catholic Church.

Or are you saying that you are a member of his congregation and feel bad about leaving his group?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[shortfuse]

Roman Catholic theology says the Mass is being offered for the redemption of the world…the redemption of the world. The holy Mass is the sacrifice of the body and blood of Jesus Christ really present on the altar under the appearance of bread and wine and offered to God for the living and the dead for the sins of the living and the sins of the dead that needed to get themselves out of Purgatory where they’re being purged from their sins. They say that Christ is a non-bloody sacrifice, but He is still…use the word immolated. Immolation is a word we don’t hear a lot, but immolation…because we don’t live in a sacerdotal sacrificial kind of culture, but immolation is the sacrificial killing of a victim. They say in the Mass Christ is actually immolated. He is sacrificially killed. Christ becomes in their language the Most Holy Victim, actually present in flesh and spirit and divinity in the bread and the wine though it appears still to be bread and wine. After the adoration of the consecrated Host, the uplifted hands of the priest pretend to offer God the very body and blood of Christ as a sacrifice for the living and the dead. And then in observance of the Eucharist, the priest eats Christ alive in the presence of the people. And then gives Him to the people under the appearance of bread. What is this?

 

[Markie_Boy]

The common understanding is that Christ is physically present not in a corporeal manner, but in a Sacramental manner. Does that help? I don’t know the difference between corporeal or Sacramental - could you help explain? Also, you do not need to give up Greg Laurie’s inspirational and true teachings about Christ. Just give up his wrong teachings about Christ and the Catholic Church. Or are you saying that you are a member of his congregation and feel bad about leaving his group? I listen to his sermons on line, but attend mass weekly. Learning I don’t have to give it up is great. Some things he teaches don’t jive with Catholic teaching, but lot’s do. Blessings, Marduk

Thank you!

 

[Markie_Boy]

I don’t know the difference between corporeal and Sacramental - could you explain?

Thank you!

 

[shortfuse]

Roman Catholic theology says the Mass is being offered for the redemption of the world…the redemption of the world. And as I said last time, the key to the whole thing is this transubstantiation…transforming the substance from bread and wine to the actual Christ. The holy Mass is the sacrifice of the body and blood of Jesus Christ really present on the altar under the appearance of bread and wine and offered to God for the living and the dead for the sins of the living and the sins of the dead that needed to get themselves out of Purgatory where they’re being purged from their sins. Elaguare, again who wrote The Glories of Mary says this, “We are struck with wonder when we find that in obedience to the words of his priest, Hocus Corpus Meum,this is My body, God Himself descends on the altar.” Listen to what he says, “God comes whenever the priest calls him and as often as they call Him and places Himself in their hands even they…even though they should be His enemies.” Some kind of power the priests have to call down God from heaven and it says, Elaguare, “After having come, God remains entirely at their disposal and they move Him as they please from one place to another. They may, if they wish, shut Him up in the tabernacle,” that is in the little box where they keep the Host, “Or expose Him on the altar, or carry Him outside the Church. They may if they choose eat His flesh and give Him for the food of others besides the power of the priest surpasses that of the Blessed Virgin because she cannot absolve a Catholic from even the smallest sin.” That, by the way, is in a volume called, “The Dignity and Duties of the Priest.” This is their priestly power, to pull God down and infuse Him into the Mass and then move Him wherever they want. The priest then is supposed to be endowed with power by the Bishop at his ordination. The ordination of a priest is a very important event because he is given the power at his ordination to change the bread and the wine into the literal living body and blood of Christ. He literally is given the power to call God out of heaven and bring Him into those elements. In fact, they say the body of Christ is present down to the last eyelash and toenail. And when asked how is it possible for THE body of Christ which is one body to be everywhere in the world where Mass is being said at the same time, and the answer is, “It’s a miracle.” After the adoration of the consecrated Host, the uplifted hands of the priest pretend to offer God the very body and blood of Christ as a sacrifice for the living and the dead. And then in observance of the Eucharist, the priest eats Christ alive in the presence of the people. And then gives Him to the people under the appearance of bread. It is a horrific and pagan event that goes on constantly. The congregation of the Blessed Sacrament is an organization devoted to carry out before the Blessed Sacrament a perpetual mission of prayer and supplication. There are people in that organization and a number of other organizations who spend all of their time praying to the box that contains the Host. Roman Catholics all over the world do this.Roman Catholic Churches they have people sign up to come at all hours of the day to pray to the box.So, priests replaced preachers, an altar replaces the pulpit, doctrine is replaced by ritual ceremony. The Roman Catholic Church is still a sacral society. The priest conveys Christ in an act, not by the preaching of the gospel. The Lord’s table becomes an altar where people can eat the actual flesh and drink the actual blood of a sacrificial victim that is being offered by a false priest to God as if Jesus needed to be sacrificed all over again. I HOPE THIS SHEDS SOME INSIGHT.