Help me to NOT offend you (Catholics)...please?

[ora_pro_nobis]

Sure; there are too many to name here so I would recommend you see a “Compendium” of the Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 33,35,45,168,259 will take you straight to the point you are asking for.

Then take your CCC and see paragraphs 185-189, 199-202, 167, 815 will help clear things up for you.

None of those paragraphs says it is forbidden for unbaptized/unconfirmed persons to say the Credo.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

None of those paragraphs says it is forbidden for unbaptized/unconfirmed persons to say the Credo.

Really? where does it say you must believe in God in order to be a Christian? or where is it forbidden not to believe in God? Where does it say you have to believe in the trinity in order to be a Catholic? Your question of forbidden is never related in terms of Christian doctrine expressed and taught through the Catholic Church CCC. The Doctrine is always in the negative, not in ways the secular world addresses them from such terms as forbidden. The term “anathema” is applied very few times only after the doctrine is revealed, not during the course of the definition of a doctrine.

For example;

Paragraph 259 CCCC. “What is required of one who is to be baptized?”

“Everyone who is to be baptized is REQUIRED TO MAKE A PROFESSION OF FAITH…”

Do you need more clarification? Because the Church just removed any quess work for you.

Please Show me where a Catholic Church allows the unbaptized to profess the Credo in Mass? We can start with your own local parish? Does your Parish allow unbaptized persons to profess the Credo? Or do you know?

If yes then we have much to discuss here? If No then I rest my case with your local bishop.

 

[Miriam1947]

I started attending Mass while I was in RCIA and I said the Credo every Mass.

Legalism, not a good thing.

 

[grandfather]

It appears that what you introduce is “cultural accepted tradition” and what I reveal here is a Catholic teaching since the Nicene Creed was formed for all the baptised (see Vatican II council document mentioned earlier).

 

[grandfather]

Now those who know know better by ignorance have recited the creed and also have taken the Eucharist unknowingly is a matter of mercy and forgiveness from the sacraments of reconciliation (baptism, confession) which prayerfully will come when the ignorant has recieved them later.

Well it must be that the vast majority of priests and bishops are responsible for the ignorance of those who do not know better, because they are not telling anyone that they should not be saying the crede. They do teach that receiving the Eucharist is for Catholics, and it is in the missal, but dead silence on this secret prohibition you raise.

Although I find your argument secular and popular on the surface of secular individual freedoms which leads to the wide road of destruction. The Church’s stance on this matter is a narrow road which leads to eternal life.

What does that have to do with the topic?

I still recommend you ask your Pastor before rejecting what the Catholic Church has always practiced in evangelization.

My parish and pastor are Ukrainian Catholic. We have had adults received into the Church, instructed, baptized and confirmed/chrismated. In the east priests have faculties to chrismate. These adults attended divine liturgy as they were preparing for reception. They never were removed or asked to leave. They participated in every aspect of the Liturgy other than Eucharist.

One has to remember the Catholic church is universal world wide. Her disciplines may not reach other communities which have no need of them. But Her teachings are in every Catholic Church world wide professed, practiced and taught to every believer and cannot be changed.

So why aren’t visitors informed of your assertion?

Reveal to me One Catholic Church that allows unbaptised persons to make a profession of the Nicene Creed in Mass? And I will reveal to you a Church indifferent (heresy) to the Apostolic Traditions and Teachings in the Catholic Church.

I have never been in a Catholic Church where it was prohibited. Are you serious?

In weddings, baptismal example, the priest will always inform the attendee before the profession of faith which introduces the liturgy of the Eucharist not to participate if they are not baptized validly, or not practicing catholics or what ever reasons the priest deems fit to explain to his community in attendance. Never the less the Church gives a warning to all in attendance.

Sometimes priests might make a statement about the Eucharist for Catholics only, but never about reciting the crede, or remaining quiet and not responding following the missal during the Eucharistic prayers. Please don’t pretend otherwise. You destroy what is left of your credibility. You are arguing for arguments sake and possibly misleading others.

 

[Leegal]

I have sometimes wondered the same. Why, if our marriages were legal, with a legal divorce in between, and neither a violation of our previous faith, must they be annulled? The time it takes now is so long it seems forever–I have seen three of my RCIA classes graduate before me and the tribunal has only just now sent out the questionnaires to the witnesses.

I have sometimes wondered the same. Why, if our marriages were legal, with a legal divorce in between, and neither a violation of our previous faith, must they be annulled? The time it takes now is so long it seems forever–I have seen three of my RCIA classes graduate before me and the tribunal has only just now sent out the questionnaires to the witnesses.

Because we recognize the marriages of Baptised non-Catholics. I assume you are Baptised in the previous faith? I don’t know why this was not explained.

As for the “divorce in between” – there is no such thing in the Catholic faith. We do not recognize civil divorce, but do recognize non-Catholic marriages of baptised persons. That you got a civil divorce does not negate the fact that you took a vow before God.

It’s not a violation of your previous faith, but it’s now an impediment to being in full communion with your new faith-The Catholic Church. I’m sorry that this is taking so long.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

I’ll try to make this as concise as possible. I am a lifelong evangelical Christian and at the age of 51 I find myself being drawn to the Catholic Church. To be honest, I feel like I am finally home. I cannot understand exactly what is going on with me but I cannot deny the reality of it. I started praying the Divine Office about two years ago (just by myself), attending Mass about a month ago, praying the Rosary, and trying to learn as much as I can about the faith, especially in the areas that would differ from my Protestant tradition. I met with the RCIA director last week and, in the process of discussing various things, I realized that in order to convert to Catholicism, I would have to seek and annulment for my first marriage, get my husband to seek one for his first marriage, and have our marriage “blessed” or recognized by the Catholic Church. For reasons that I won’t get into here, my conscience will not allow me to start that process. I feel like my journey toward conversion has been halted. So…that leads (finally) to my questions.

I know that I will not be able to partake of the Eucharist or Reconciliation. I humbly respect and accept that these doors are closed to me. But, can I still come to Mass ( pray, cross myself, kneel, listen), pray the Rosary, adore the Blessed Sacrament, hang out with Jesus in the sanctuary, etc. even though I cannot see a way to convert to Catholicism at this time. I want to be sensitive to the Catholics in the church. I don’t want to offend them in any way. I want to show respect for the things that they hold dear (I understand and consider them precious too). So…what do you all think? What would you think of me if I was in your parish? Am I going to offend you with my participation? Would you judge me to be a fraud?

Thank you to anyone who can offer me some help and perspective.

There are many people like yourself who regularly participate in the Catholic Church, but who usually end up for reasons of a clear conscience converting to the Catholic Church in order to participate fully in the Sacraments.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I started attending Mass while I was in RCIA and I said the Credo every Mass.

Legalism, not a good thing.

If you were baptised, the practice does not apply to you. If you were given the rite of acceptance when you entered RCIA, usually the priest will have you remain throughout the liturgy and profess the Creed from then on, but not recieve the Eucharist.

The unbaptized in RCIA will not recite the creed until the their rite of election after the bishop renames them the “Elect” then are given the Creed.

There are many circumstances that arise here. That is why I recommended the OP speak to a priest that he/she is attending Mass without any catechesis or formation. So the priest can assure the OP what to participate in. The OP did not reveal if he/she recieved a valid baptism or was presented in his/her former faith.

Jesus said to “obey the Pharisees” (legalism) “but do not partake of their leaven”. There is no legalism when the Church is protecting the sheep of Jesus.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

grandfather;8613039] asked why visitors are not instructed to not say the crede if the Church believes they should not.

First of all I addressed the OP to speak to a priest in regards to baptism, so as not to be held in contempt before God if reciting the creed at Mass. The priest can solve this matter not you nor I here.

Next you want to know why is’nt this practice across the board in every Mass? Take that up with your priest. Because I am addressing the catechumens, those wanting to come into full communion and candidates to be fully initiated into the body of Christ. Your laxed attendee’s in weddings and the such, deals with how well your priest is informed by the wedding party who will be attending. Then it is up to the priest to inform the community before the liturgy of the Eucharist which always begin with the profession of faith.

Besides you don’t know if these non-catholics recited the creed by heart or picked up a missalette because the priest generally will not announce the page number to be found. But these are all circumstances that neither you nor I can prove anyway. So your argument raises doubt here.

Dealing with protestants who know the creed is another matter of discussion, to those who only need to make a profession in the Mass becomes converted and they may not even be informed of this. THus it is very important for non catholics and protestants to be informed of the Creed recited at Mass. But this is not an R.C.I.A director’s responsibility it is the responsibility of the local Bishop and priest when celebrating the mysteries.

As far as the practice from antiquity stands. Your apologetic introduction although is true in regarding the protection of the attendee’s from outsiders being excused before the liturgy of the Eucharist during the persecution. NO unbaptized was allowed to enter this liturgy of the Eucharist, they were excused while being catechized which generally took up to 3 years before making their profession of faith to enter the liturgy of the Eucharist.

Apologetics do not apply here, because the Church never needs to defend the responsibility of the bishop or priest during catechesis and formation.

What I think you are finding difficulty with here, is that you are rebutting the responsibility of the Bishop and priest duties, with what you “think” is happening in your neighborhood. That is why I recommend you consult your own parish priest. I would not be informing you of this if this was not practiced in the Catholic Church from antiquity.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

If you were baptised, the practice does not apply to you. If you were given the rite of acceptance when you entered RCIA, usually the priest will have you remain throughout the liturgy and profess the Creed from then on, but not recieve the Eucharist.

The unbaptized in RCIA will not recite the creed until their rite of election after the bishop renames them the “Elect” then are given the Creed.

There are many circumstances that arise here. That is why I recommended the OP speak to a priest that he/she is attending Mass without any catechesis or formation. So the priest can assure the OP what to participate in. The OP did not reveal if he/she recieved a valid baptism or was presented in his/her former faith.

Jesus said to “obey the Pharisees” (legalism) “but do not partake of their leaven”. There is no legalism when the Church is protecting the sheep of Jesus.

 

[Miriam1947]

If you were baptised, the practice does not apply to you. If you were given the rite of acceptance when you entered RCIA, usually the priest will have you remain throughout the liturgy and profess the Creed from then on, but not recieve the Eucharist.

The unbaptized in RCIA will not recite the creed until the their rite of election after the bishop renames them the “Elect” then are given the Creed.

There are many circumstances that arise here. That is why I recommended the OP speak to a priest that he/she is attending Mass without any catechesis or formation. So the priest can assure the OP what to participate in. The OP did not reveal if he/she recieved a valid baptism or was presented in his/her former faith.

Jesus said to “obey the Pharisees” (legalism) “but do not partake of their leaven”. There is no legalism when the Church is protecting the sheep of Jesus.

I was not baptized at the time.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I was not baptized at the time.

Did you attend a Rite of welcoming, acceptance or election? Did you attend both liturgies of the Mass while in RCIA class or did you attend Mass by yourself?

 

[alison37]

Since the discussion has taken a bit of a turn, I though that I would just post for the sake of clarification that I was baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, by immersion when I was 13 years old. I would never just recite the Creed or say any other prayer if I did not wholeheartedly agree with and believe what I was professing. I have been praying the LOTH for two years which has familiarized me with the language before I even went to my first Mass. At this point in my journey, I am learning about things that are particular to Catholicism but as I stated in my original post, I have been a practicing Christian for 45 years and I do have some knowledge of Scripture, Church history, as well as habits of personal devotion.

My original post was to test the waters as to how I will be received by Catholics as a Protestant participating in the Mass (with the obvious exception of the Eucharist). I wondered if I would be judged or accepted or even noticed at all, for that matter. The responses that I have received in this forum have been very helpful. I am thankful for the gracious and kind welcome that many have expressed.

 

[Miriam1947]

Did you attend a Rite of welcoming, acceptance or election? Did you attend both liturgies of the Mass while in RCIA class or did you attend Mass by yourself?

I attended Mass by myself. In fact because I attended Mass I knew that the Catholic Church was the Truth. I read the missal and it only said I could not receive. Which was never a problem for me.

I went up once for a blessing but only once.

Please show me where it says that we cannot say the Creed if we are not baptized. Just because a person is not baptized DOES NOT mean they don’t believe.

And yes I did attend the Rites in a different Mass. It was the 10:30 Mass and I attended every Sunday the 7:30 Mass. So on those weeks I attended the later Mass. My priest never said we couldn’t attend Mass and he was very orthodox in his teaching and was very involved with RCIA.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Miriam1947;8618236]I attended Mass by myself. In fact because I attended Mass I knew that the Catholic Church was the Truth. I read the missal and it only said I could not receive. Which was never a problem for me

.

So you had no instruction of attending Mass by your R.C.I.A class or priest? When you were in R.C.I.A you never attended Mass with your class and then dismissed before the profession of faith?

Please show me where it says that we cannot say the Creed if we are not baptized. Just because a person is not baptized DOES NOT mean they don’t believe.

No one questions the unbaptized belief or faith. The unbaptized (adults attending R.C.I.A) have to be informed and catechized in the faith. The profession of faith is one of the main building blocks that our Catholic faith is professed in before God. Wouldn’t you think that it is important for an unbaptized to be informed of before professing this before God?** I have listed some resources see post #36** that reveal the importance of the profession of faith before being baptized.

I should clarify here that the responsibility alone regarding this practice comes from your local bishop and priest, not the R.C.I.A director. How each parish or diocese catechize ultimately the responsibility comes from your local bishop.

My local bishop has instructed my parish priest who informed me of his R.C.I.A program that any known unbaptized person attending Mass is not to recite the Creed in Mass until the catechumen becomes the Elect by the bishop. Those validly baptized outside the Catholic Church are not hindered from reciting the Creed at Mass provided that the baptism was deemed valid by the Catholic church.

This is never to doubt ones faith or belief, but to protect and serve those unbaptized persons coming to Mass when it is known by the Church that catechumens are present in Mass, especially when they are attending Mass through the R.C.I.A program, when they are dismissed “always” before the reciting of the Creed.

And yes I did attend the Rites in a different Mass. It was the 10:30 Mass and I attended every Sunday the 7:30 Mass.

You could not become a catechumen (one preparing to recieve baptism) unless you attended the rite of acceptance during the Mass, to which if you were to read this liturgical Rite in the Mass of acceptance. This is the document that reveals that the Catechumen is dismissed before the profession of faith (Rite of acceptance).

In short, If you want an official document that reveals this teaching in dismissing the unbaptized from Mass before the recitation of the Creed. You would need to see your local priest who has the Written Rite in his Mass liturgical Books. That is why I mentioned that the responsibility ultimately remains to your local bishop and priest.

So on those weeks I attended the later Mass. My priest never said we couldn’t attend Mass and he was very orthodox in his teaching and was very involved with RCIA.

I am aware of some non-catholics who were interviewed by a priest, and was made aware of their knowledge of the scriptures and Catholic teachings, recieved their sacraments without hardly any catechesis. The responsibility remains with your bishop and priest who determines when certain catechesis apply. In general an unbaptized person is not allowed to recite the profession of faith during Mass, let alone attend the liturgy of the Eucharist, but your priest determines this.

One of the reasons that Iam aware why non baptized individuals are not to recite the creed because if they do not know what they are professing before God, heaven holds them in contempt. Secondly, you should of been made aware of the term “mystagogy” in R.C.I.A. This formation (mystagogy) process is most critical in your formation, because it is here that all what you learned in R.C.I.A becomes secondary to Mystagogy because it is here from your profession of faith becomes “experienced” in the mysteries of God.

Before one enters mystagogy, the unbaptized must be informed so that what is professed can be experienced, mystagogy cannot be defined or exhausted it has to be experienced from what is believed and professed. If an unbaptized does not know what he/she is professing before God, how is this person to experience the mysteries of God?

Peace be with you and welcome home.

 

[Adonia]

I’ll try to make this as concise as possible. I am a lifelong evangelical Christian and at the age of 51 I find myself being drawn to the Catholic Church. To be honest, I feel like I am finally home. I cannot understand exactly what is going on with me but I cannot deny the reality of it. I started praying the Divine Office about two years ago (just by myself), attending Mass about a month ago, praying the Rosary, and trying to learn as much as I can about the faith, especially in the areas that would differ from my Protestant tradition. I met with the RCIA director last week and, in the process of discussing various things, I realized that in order to convert to Catholicism, I would have to seek and annulment for my first marriage, get my husband to seek one for his first marriage, and have our marriage “blessed” or recognized by the Catholic Church. For reasons that I won’t get into here, my conscience will not allow me to start that process. I feel like my journey toward conversion has been halted. So…that leads (finally) to my questions.

I know that I will not be able to partake of the Eucharist or Reconciliation. I humbly respect and accept that these doors are closed to me. But, can I still come to Mass ( pray, cross myself, kneel, listen), pray the Rosary, adore the Blessed Sacrament, hang out with Jesus in the sanctuary, etc. even though I cannot see a way to convert to Catholicism at this time. I want to be sensitive to the Catholics in the church. I don’t want to offend them in any way. I want to show respect for the things that they hold dear (I understand and consider them precious too). So…what do you all think? What would you think of me if I was in your parish? Am I going to offend you with my participation? Would you judge me to be a fraud?

Thank you to anyone who can offer me some help and perspective.

No! No! No! You would not be a fraud to me or any other Catholic. You would be more than welcome in any Catholic Church anywhere! As someone said earlier you are an inspiration to us all. To a cradle catholic like myself, your words here remind me once again of all that I have here in the Catholic faith tradition and the next time I am before Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament I will pray that all turns out well for you.

As for your annulment process, it is not as daunting as you think and I hope you are able to overcome whatever problem you may have concerning it. My wife went through this process with her first husband and believe me it was one joyus day when we renewed our vows in front of family and friends. Our parish priest was such a great help in all of this too. Good luck and God bless!

 

[fbl9]

First, let me say this…if a catholic is in a state of mortal sin, they cannot partake of the Eucharist until they go to confession. So there are others who cannot take communion..

to me the very worst punishment of hell is the seperation from God. Gee that makes not being able to recieve almost like hell on earth.