Help me understand this

[mommamaree]

The attitude of this father in the OP is precisely why we have not yet told people that we are expecting our fifth child. Only my MIL and step-FIL and my sister know, and they are sworn to secrecy. We are not even telling people at our parish, either.

In the OP, there was so much judgement wrapped up in pseudo-Christian language. I cannot believe he was referring to his daughter having babies (that she and her husband welcome and love) as indiscriminate breeding. Oh wait, I can believe that, because I hear that kind of junk all the time. I, too, have been chastised for not getting my advanced degree since I dropped out of the program to stay home and start a family. What seems not to register is that I didn’t want to get that degree and sacrifice my ability to stay home and enjoy having a family. And that was when I was actually getting paid to go to grad school (in the sciences, they often pay you to go to grad school, rather than you pay them…You get a stipend if you become teaching assistants and research assistants to the professors). The criticism leveled at me was that I was letting down society and myself and the family (my in-laws were very proud to have a PhD candidate for a DIL, and were extremely let down when I quit, especially since I quit after I had already finished all my coursework) and I was told I should go back and finish getting my PhD. My children were sleeping in the next room. None of them would have been conceived if I had continued on that path. My husband asked, “which grandchild would you rather not have?”

So, I see this from the perspective of the OP’s daughter. We have also needed help a couple times. My husband got laid off and couldn’t find a decent job in our home town. I am sure that our in-laws were not too happy to have to help us. I was only pregnant with our second at that time, but I couldn’t possibly go back to work just then, and we couldn’t afford our health insurance or mortgage on our own. So we were very thankful for their help, but we kept looking for a better situation while my husband worked two jobs. We ended up leaving and moving nearly 700 miles away for better jobs and lower cost of living. The grandparents only get to see the grandkids once or twice a year now, but we never need any financial help.

I don’t have any advice except I think a prayerful reconsidering of priorities might be in order…not for the daughter, but for the OP. My guess is that she is not willing to talk to her father about her sex life and family planning, because it isn’t his business and he has already made his judgement known. I would probably sound like quite a providentialist, too, when faced with such an attitude. Providentialism is actually NOT inappropriate for a Christian, anyway. One of the best spiritual classics of all time is Abandonment to Divine Providence. If you want to get a good idea of where your daughter is coming from, that book is a good starting point.

 

[PaulinVA]

What the recent posters with large families are not addressing is the fact that the OP’s daughter and her husband can not support their family. You are projecting your own experiences onto this thread, and defending large families no matter what.

Is it right to continue to produce babies when you can not afford them?

The OP is not a perfect actor. He has some good points to make, but uses pejorative language that tends to rile people up on these fora. He is frustrated. He is controlling, but he is also supporting this family that can’t support themselves. In my view, if the government or a relative or both are supporting you through rent and utilities and healthcare, then, yes, you should not have additional children. It’s not right.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

What the recent posters with large families are not addressing is the fact that the OP’s daughter and her husband can not support their family. You are projecting your own experiences onto this thread, and defending large families no matter what.

Is it right to continue to produce babies when you can not afford them?

The OP is not a perfect actor. He has some good points to make, but uses pejorative language that tends to rile people up on these fora. He is frustrated. He is controlling, but he is also supporting this family that can’t support themselves. In my view, if the government or a relative or both are supporting you through rent and utilities and healthcare, then, yes, you should not have additional children. It’s not right.

Then most children born to Catholics in the world are “not right”

 

[mommamaree]

What the recent posters with large families are not addressing is the fact that the OP’s daughter and her husband can not support their family. You are projecting your own experiences onto this thread, and defending large families no matter what.

Is it right to continue to produce babies when you can not afford them?

The OP is not a perfect actor. He has some good points to make, but uses pejorative language that tends to rile people up on these fora. He is frustrated. He is controlling, but he is also supporting this family that can’t support themselves. In my view, if the government or a relative or both are supporting you through rent and utilities and healthcare, then, yes, you should not have additional children. It’s not right.

I actually did address that. I have been in the situation of expecting a baby and needing financial help. We made the decision to move far away. I doubt that is what the OP would choose for his daughter, but if they withdraw financial support, that may be what happens. Such is life. We didn’t want to be helped forever. Autonomy was more important for us than closeness to family. It could be that the daughter doesn’t want to leave her parents or hometown. Just a thought.
Either way, married couples have sex. Sex makes babies. NFP is not failproof. No method of family planning, except complete abstinence, is. We do not know under what circumstances these babies were conceived, and we don’t know how often the couple is needing help. The OP just says “all the time”. What does that mean exactly? And if he wants to withdraw his support, he had every right to do so. But he doesn’t get a voice in their family planning choices.

 

[mommamaree]

Then most children born to Catholics in the world are “not right”

Excellent point. Our idea of responsibility in family planning is very skewed these days.

 

[The_Bucket]

Look, there’s definitely such a thing as prudence. And the OP has every right to not to provide financial support for his adult children and juvenile grandchildren (aside from ensuring that they don’t starve to death or something because that’s just cruelty). But he doesn’t get to use his financial means as coercion to get his daughter to live what he thinks to be “the right way” when nothing she is doing is immoral.

There’s a difference between using financial means as a tool to correct sinful behavior. Like refusing to help a child who is on drugs, but telling him/her that you will help if he/she goes into rehab and gets back into school or gets a job. That’s completely different. But it seems a little too close for comfort in this situation.

I’m not saying that the OP’s daughter is being particularly wise. I don’t think she is. I think it’s imprudent to a certain degree. But her decisions are her decisions and they are not wrong. It’s just not what I would have chosen.

I got married at 22. Found out about a baby two months after the wedding. He was born early. Just weeks after he got out of the hospital (where he stayed for 4.5 months) we found out about baby #2. Was that morally wrong? No. But it was imprudent. Not because of finances though. But because my wife had an emergency c-section and it was risky from a health standpoint. Do I regret it? No, because everything turned out fine. But I do think not being more conservative with NFP was an imprudent choice because of actual physical danger.

On the other hand, we waited several years for baby #3 and quite frankly I think I was being very absurd with my “serious reasons.” I was scared for the health, but even after we got the green light from a doc, I still thought money was an object. It’s not. I live hundreds of miles from my parents and in-laws. I recent a decent house with three bedrooms, I’ve got a couple of cars and cash in the bank to save up to buy a home. I’m not yet 30. And yet I can sit here and say that, while I don’t think I was being immoral with being overly cautious prior to baby #3, I don’t it was necessary and that mindset infected the rest of my attitude to the point where I was being selfish elsewhere.

Anyway, I guess in a roundabout way I’m saying that I don’t think the OP’s daughter is being as prudent as might be advisable, but I also know she’s doing nothing morally wrong. I also know that using money as a tool for coercion is wrong in this case. Either support her or don’t, in neither case are you being sinful, but don’t use it as a weapon to get what you want. That would be sinful and harmful for your relationship.

And as a final note… since when should poverty be an obstacle to being a parent? That’s a disgusting mindset. There’s a reason that the most developed countries have terrible fertility rates. And it’s not because “kids cost so much these days.”

It’s because we’re attached to stuff; material possessions. We care about stuff and children are obstacles to having more stuff, so we better not have too many. We in the West can afford to have the most kids… and yet we are killing ourselves so we can have more stuff.

I guess an expensive casket and extensive post-mortem work to make sure our corpses look pretty when we’re tossed into the ground is pretty important.

 

[haedron]

I actually agree with the OP’s sentiment here, I just think he’s focused on the “breeding” when that’s not the real problem.

At some point before baby #4 (and possibly earlier) daughter and son in law should have had a conversation where someone said “you know, we can’t afford the kids we have without assistance from the government and my parents, maybe we should put any additions to our family on hold until we get our financial situation in order.”

Accidents happen, of course, but it doesn’t sound like this is anything but poor decision making on the part of the OP’s daughter and SIL. Knowingly having more children when that decision puts someone in the position to require assitance is the height of poor parenting and irresponsible decision making, in my opinion.

Daughter needs a reality check, and cutting the financial assistance is probably the right way to go about it.

 

[MomaMary8]

Hi,

Well, three months after the wedding she was pregnant. We were of course happy to have a grandchild and happy for her, but this derailed her plan so we had some disappointments too. She swore that when the baby was a year old she would go back to school, but when the baby was 14 months she got pregnant again. At this point her mother, while supportive, asked her what was going on and she said they did not believe in birth control and were going to let God decide their family size. My wife said, “you are 25 years old, if you let God/nature decide, you will have 20 children by the time you are 50.” Our daughter said God wouldn’t send anything that she couldn’t handle.

I have a huge problem with that way of thinking, because people will simply handle whatever life hands them OR lose their marbles, have a miserable life, go crazy or harm themselves. God DOES let things happen to people that they can’t handle, or that are so cripplingly devastating that lives are ruined. We are not believers that God “sends” anything to us - we believe that he allows life to take its own course. God doesn’t “send” 20 babies any more than he “sends” cancer or a devastating car wreck or an Oscar or a job or a Superbowl championship. People make choices, things happen, we usually deal with it but sometimes it’s too much.

So our daughter got pregnant for a third time when that baby was not even a year yet and now she has a daughter and two little tiny boys and she is EXHAUSTED. She looks 40. Her mom and I help all we can with childcare, but her husband has never made enough money to support a decent lifestyle. We have to help them with rent and utilities all the time and the kids are on government health care. It’s ridiculous that they keep having babies in light of all this.

Last week we found out that she is pregnant for a fourth time. We love and adore our grandkids, but my daughter was not made just to breed and breed and breed. At this point she will never finish her education, and I don’t know if they will ever be able to afford a real home, good schools, or anything nice. My daughter drives a car that is on its last legs. She is beleaguered and she doesn’t even know it.

I am really at a loss here. Babies are great and families are great, but at some point can’t we say that enough is enough? They are all about God providing, but He isn’t going to buy them health insurance - taxpayers are covering that. He isn’t going to pay for groceries, much less a home, furniture, education, cars, and things that kids need. I feel that my daughter and her husband need to put a stop to this “God’s plan” business and start using their God-given intellect and ability to choose to get their family right before my daughter keels over and dies from the constant pregnancies.

She needs to go back to school. My wife and I have told her that if she stops having these rapid-fire babies, we will help with childcare and tuition so that she can go back to school. We have offered to help her husband with retraining for a better career so that he can support his family too. We are really willing to help them get ahead but we are not willing to subsidize** indiscriminate breeding foreve**r.

I know not all Catholics are this way. I know I need to approach this with my daughter from a religious standpoint because she truly believes that God is sending her pregnancy after pregnancy and that she just needs to accept that **the next 20 years of her life will be dedicated to reproducing as frequently as is physically possible. ** Please help me understand her mindset, where this is coming from, and how I can help her see her way out of this mess. I grew up knowing Catholics and they did not do this.

Thank you respectfully.

Whoa, “filth” is a little strong, isn’t it? I understand why you feel defensive; our church has several large families, and the parents have spoken about the judgmental attitude they get from their relatives. And I think large families are wonderful, and I hope God is pleased to send me many children.

Well after re-reading the post I think I’ll stand by words. The words he used to describe his daughter, currently born grandchildren and any possible future grandchildren was just aweful, filthy. I would not allow anyone to call me a breeder in my home or call any of my children breeders if they were to ever get married and be blessed with children.

OP wanted to know how he could “see her way out of this mess.” I really don’t think that was the most loving way to describe a mom expecting baby #4.

 

[cheese_sdc]

Please help me understand her mindset, where this is coming from, and how I can help her see her way out of this mess. I grew up knowing Catholics and they did not do this.

Thank you respectfully.

I really understand your pain and coming from a similar family, I can offer only this:

She drunk the kool-aid. She is convinced that what she is doing is “God’s Will” and that will trump anything you will say. My own brother and his wife are expecting their 5th and while they aren’t on government assistance, they are exhausted and he had a nervous breakdown at one point.

My ex-wive’s brother’s inlaws are doing the same thing, including the government assistance…

No matter, though. God’s will!

Just be there for her. This is her choice and her life, and anything you will say against it will be seen as persecution and feed whatever martyrdom fantasy they are living in.

 

[The_Bucket]

I really understand your pain and coming from a similar family, I can offer only this:

She drunk the kool-aid. She is convinced that what she is doing is “God’s Will” and that will trump anything you will say. My own brother and his wife are expecting their 5th and while they aren’t on government assistance, they are exhausted and he had a nervous breakdown at one point.

My ex-wive’s brother’s inlaws are doing the same thing, including the government assistance…

No matter, though. God’s will!

Just be there for her. This is her choice and her life, and anything you will say against it will be seen as persecution and feed whatever martyrdom fantasy they are living in.

Oh yes, people with a ton of money don’t have nervous breakdowns ever! Never happens! Childless, rich people don’t have all kinds of problems too. Don’t you know? Money solves everything!

Good Lord. Sometimes I get suspicious that some folks who vote certain ways are not actually suspicious of gov’t power, but just think anyone who needs help can go straight to hell. Makes me embarrassed to be part of that rank and file. But what’s the alternative? The other tribe that supports a huge government and the killing of unborn children? Can’t stomach that.

At any rate, I went back through the OP’s post and I stand by what I say about prudence. But this really, really caught my eye.

I don’t know if they will ever be able to afford a real home, good schools, or anything nice. My daughter drives a car that is on its last legs. She is beleaguered and she doesn’t even know it.

This gets to what everyone has been saying here. The paying for rent and utilities I can see as a serious problem. OP has every right to withdraw assistance. But those three sentences above prove the underlying mindset. Affording “nice stuff” is the priority. And pity the poor girl who doesn’t know that she’s so pathetic.

Basically, “she’s pretty happy but doesn’t know how bad she has it.” What an absolutely poisonous mindset. Far, far more poisonous than providentialism, which I don’t agree with either. But at least providentialism is an attempt to put total faith in God. Misguided to a certain extent I think, because it can bypass our gifts of intellect and our responsibility to use common sense. God gave us that for a reason. But at least folks espousing those views are trying to trust in God, rather than mammon.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

When my wife got pregnant before I graduated we had to go on snap and medicaid, but I never told anybody about it or asked for any help. The OP’s attitude is the perfect illustration of why I would sooner starve than ask for help from family. I know when you have kids you don’t really have the option to let your children starve, but there are always other options, like government assistance, that would prevent taking help from family. It would probably be better to scale back on lifestyle and maintain your freedom than accept money with strings attached to it.

 

[ephesians4]

Afford? If everybody waited until they could concretely afford a baby on paper before having it, nobody in the world would have babies except millionaires and people pushing 40. Children are incredibly expensive, obviously.

In the end what people mostly do is work and manage (and if they are capable improve their income) - and if people did not do this there would be precious few babies.

I feel sad for families that can be persuaded to gradually dwindle from generation to generation on the basis of not having pre-existing wealth, because it is pure nonsense. It is a kind of cruel old Darwinism in action in a way.

I’m sorry if I’ve contributed to any kind of harsh reception, I just thought the language in the OP treated healthy babies as disasters, motherhood as an evil pitiable thing and living up to one’s commitments to family (financial help, childcare and otherwise) as something which means you should get a medal, or a say in other people’s marriages - this sort of thing seems to warrant speaking up in the opposite direction, to me - if for no other reason than to provide insight to the OP into how it might be received.

The OP’s attitude is the perfect illustration of why I would sooner starve than ask for help from family.

Same here - I have never asked any of my numerous parents/stepparents for an iota of financial support (and almost certainly never will), I do feel for anyone receiving help if the price is that the helper will comment on and try to direct such internal aspects of their marriage and family.

 

[Mandychu22]

What the recent posters with large families are not addressing is the fact that the OP’s daughter and her husband can not support their family. You are projecting your own experiences onto this thread, and defending large families no matter what.

Is it right to continue to produce babies when you can not afford them?

The OP is not a perfect actor. He has some good points to make, but uses pejorative language that tends to rile people up on these fora. He is frustrated. He is controlling, but he is also supporting this family that can’t support themselves. In my view, if the government or a relative or both are supporting you through rent and utilities and healthcare, then, yes, you should not have additional children. It’s not right.

I think part of the problem is that we have no idea what is going on with the daughter and SIL. I know that if I become pregnant while my husband and I are trying to avoid pregnancy I wouldn’t tell anyone that it was unplanned. I’d get looks, I’d get snide comments, whatever. We’ll have ‘as many as God gives us’ would be an accurate statement, and the only one I would offer. Some people are very fertile, and ovulation can be very unpredictable after pregnancy. The last thing someone needs when dealing with an unexpected pregnancy is mom and dad telling them how irresponsible they are with their indiscriminate breeding. It’s unhelpful, insulting, and would definitely not incline them towards sharing the fact that it was unplanned with the offender. It’s none of their business, and I would never want anyone to treat my child differently because he/she ruined my parents’/grandparents’ etc plan for me.

If you can’t support your family (which, tbh, we don’t know about the couple in question. Sometimes people need help with payments that they could pay just a little late but don’t want to take the hit for late payment. Also, there is no real statement about how often or how much assistance is actually required) of course you shouldn’t try to get pregnant, but if you ovulate unexpectedly or are unusually fertile “trying” might not be necessary. The OP doesn’t know the actual circumstances of the conception of these kids (I hope… that’s way too much information to share), only the information that is shared with him. The fact is that the grandkids are already there, and it’s possible that more will follow. That fact needs to be accepted because ‘you should not have additional children’ without a certain amount of funds is the mindset that leads to millions of abortions every year.

The OP is in no way obligated to help support his daughter’s family, nor should he be. But offers to pay his daughter to go back to school because ‘it was the plan’ are just ridiculous. Plans change with children. Stating that her husband doesn’t make enough money to support ‘a decent lifestyle’ means nothing other than that they don’t have as many things as OP thinks they should. He seems more focused on his daughter finishing school so she can buy these kids the things he wants them to have, than ensuring his grandkids are raised in a loving home. We had ‘things’ growing up, but that’s not what I remember. I remember walking through the mall with my dad and siblings on Saturday afternoons (we’re big window shoppers, and we talk a lot). I remember going sledding. I remember sitting around the living room and laughing and talking for hours. The playstation is only remembered because I trip over it occasionally.

I honestly think he’s lucky if they aren’t pulling away from him. I can’t imagine any making any response to an offer of “helping with childcare and tuition if you stop having these rapid-fire babies” other than walking out and waiting for a sincere apology. And that’s only because I’d be too offended to respond verbally in an appropriate manner. How dare anyone, even (or especially) the grandparents, say such a thing about someone’s family?

 

[FordDad1958]

Thank you all for your replies. I am surprised how many responses there are and I’m sorry I just don’t have time to respond individually to everyone.

But what I will say in my defense is that I do not dislike my grandchildren! In fact, I adore each one and if there ARE 20, I will adore them all. But the point is that there doesn’t have to be 20.

I worked very, very hard to provide a nice life for my family. I had three girls and I paid for each of them to go to Catholic (and other private, non Catholic) schools, I covered music lessons so each is able to play an instrument. I covered college and I paid for lovely weddings for the older two and plan to do the same for our youngest. I even paid for the wedding that was in the Catholic Church, even though that is not our faith. I also spent lots of time with each of my girls, coaching soccer teams, taking them on campouts, playing basketball in the yard, teaching them to ride bikes…

What I fear is that my daughter has been “caught” in a situation where my son in law sees her as needing to have continuous babies. I don’t know why the term “rapid fire” hit such a nerve, because I do think that having a kid every 18 months is pretty rapid! I don’t even think she’s allowing her body and mind to heal between pregnancies. It’s just… on to the next.

Asking me which kid I would rather her not have had is silly. I love each one, as does my wife. But it is very hard to see my daughter adopting this bizarre mindset at the behest of her husband WHO DOES NOT EARN A DECENT LIVING. Now, if he made good money, bought his family a home and they didn’t have to scrimp by, AND it was HER idea to have 10 kids - fine. But this is his religion telling them that “God only sends what people can handle.” And frankly, I just don’t believe that mentality. We have to work for what we want, we make our own luck, and we can’t say that God “sends us” good things, while he only “allows” bad things. It’s one or the other. It’s cute to think that God “sends us babies” like some otherworldly stork, but in fact babies are, as many pointed out, a result of a physical act. If we don’t do the act, no babies. God doesn’t decide to send them anyway!

So I think people need to be prudent. We live in the society we live in, not rural Africa and not 1930. My daughter is so smart and talented. I am not saying she should be a working mom or support her family (my own wife stayed home for 15 years to raise the girls), but she should fulfill her potential and not just throw away her dreams - and they were HER dreams - just so that she can provide her husband with endless children.

I do not have a problem with larger families at all, but when you see your child throw away her dreams and just adopt someone else’s idea of what a “good wife and mother” is and does, it’s very upsetting.

I will never stop helping them financially because I can’t bear to see them live that way. And, truth be told, I will probably work until I am 80 so that I can provide her kids with everything I provided for my children. You can’t get ahead in this world without opportunities, and as holy as she might want to raise these kids, they still need a good education, athletic programs and music training, or whatever other pursuits the kids might find themselves drawn to. That is just reality, like it or not. This isn’t Little House on the Prairie.

Anyway, I more than anything want to understand why Catholics might feel like they will just get pregnant at every single opportunity. I did not think that Catholics were that way, like the Duggar parents.

 

[7armyrugrats]

It is highly possible that this couple IS practicing NFP but is conceiving anyway. Perhaps they may not want to listen to people say, “See? That NFP Catholic stuff is boloney. Get on the pill instead.” There are a lot of people that NFP doesn’t work for. I am one of them. Would those of you that believe it is irresponsible to “indiscriminately breed” prefer that we give our kids away or abort them since we don’t have enough money to get them out of poverty? And yes, I live well below the line of poverty. We qualify for every government program available. We qualify but we have not gotten on them. So far we have been able to avoid needing to do that, but I do not blame any other family who chooses to accept the help offered. It is there for them and their children. We choose not to because we do not want to hear even more negative remarks to our family. We feel it isn’t necessary because our kids are well fed, we own our home, our kids have everything they need and most of their wants, and our children are so very happy. If there were ever a time that we did need help I would not feel guilty for taking it because I know I have done the best I can. My kids would still be happy and well behaved. My husband would still be the one I consider to be a wonderful provider for our family. And God forbid I lose him, we have enough life insurance between the Army and another company that I would still be the stay at home homeschooling mom until our youngest is 18 with the same lifestyle we are used to living now. It would be much more devastating financially to lose me instead because there is only one policy on me and my husband would need to find the way to continue working, send the kids to school, pay child care, and the emotional damage would be outrageous not just from losing mom but all the changes that go along with that. The original post was likely largely untrue based on what an outsider looking in believes to be the only way this family can make it. He may or may not be giving money, but even if he is, the couple may or may not truly NEED it. They may accept it when offered, but I know many middle class couples that receive financial help/support from their parents on a regular basis even though they could easily make it without that happening. And still I am highly suspicious that he is helping the couple at all due to his attitude.

It saddens me that so many Catholics and not just non believers say and believe that a couple should not have children if they are poor. I find much more support and acceptance from evangelicals, fundamentalist, Pentecostals, and other conservative Christians than at any Catholic Church I have attended. I remain Catholic because I know the Truth and I do not go to Protestant churches at all, but when I’m in the real world, the Protestants are usually the ones I find acceptance and not judgment. I say this here so that maybe some of my fellow Catholics might look into their own soul and see if they are really prolife, and have really chosen to lovingly accept children as gifts from God like we Catholics vow to do at our Catholic wedding.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

Same here - I have never asked any of my numerous parents/stepparents for an iota of financial support (and almost certainly never will), I do feel for anyone receiving help if the price is that the helper will comment on and try to direct such internal aspects of their marriage and family.

It is painful to get help from family if that means you have to listen to Captain Hindsight. Do something helpful rather than giving a lecture on how they got in the situation to begin with.

 

[MJJean]

As others have said, your daughter and her husband’s reproductive choices are theirs and theirs alone. In my opinion, so is the responsibility of those choices. Stop giving them money. Let them actually be responsible for the consequences of their actions. They’ll either figure out how to have a large family on their income, figure out how to increase their income to cover the size of their family, or learn to responsibly limit their family size. By subsidizing their life choices you aren’t doing them any favors. Especially when you consider that they are dependent on you and you aren’t always going to be there to help.

 

[maryjk]

Asking me which kid I would rather her not have had is silly. I love each one, as does my wife. But it is very hard to see my daughter adopting this bizarre mindset at the behest of her husband WHO DOES NOT EARN A DECENT LIVING. Now, if he made good money, bought his family a home and they didn’t have to scrimp by, AND it was HER idea to have 10 kids - fine. But this is his religion telling them that “God only sends what people can handle.” And frankly, I just don’t believe that mentality. We have to work for what we want, we make our own luck, and we can’t say that God “sends us” good things, while he only “allows” bad things. It’s one or the other. It’s cute to think that God “sends us babies” like some otherworldly stork, but in fact babies are, as many pointed out, a result of a physical act. If we don’t do the act, no babies. God doesn’t decide to send them anyway!

The Catholic religion is HER religion. It is sad that you feel that her husband forced her to convert. It is worse that you feel that he is forcing her to have kids.

So I think people need to be prudent. We live in the society we live in, not rural Africa and not 1930. My daughter is so smart and talented. I am not saying she should be a working mom or support her family (my own wife stayed home for 15 years to raise the girls), but she should fulfill her potential and not just throw away her dreams - and they were HER dreams - just so that she can provide her husband with endless children.

They *were *her dreams. But dreams change.

Mine did. I looked at the sweet face of my newborn baby and realized that I could not go back to work. School was out of the question. Staying with this precious being was the most important dream I could have.

After ready both of your posts, my only advice is to stay out of their bedroom.

 

[Mandychu22]

Thank you all for your replies. I am surprised how many responses there are and I’m sorry I just don’t have time to respond individually to everyone.

But what I will say in my defense is that I do not dislike my grandchildren! In fact, I adore each one and if there ARE 20, I will adore them all. But the point is that there doesn’t have to be 20.

The point is that, 20 or not, it isn’t your call.

I worked very, very hard to provide a nice life for my family. I had three girls and I paid for each of them to go to Catholic schools, I covered music lessons so each is able to play an instrument. I covered college and I paid for lovely weddings for the older two and plan to do the same for our youngest. I even paid for the wedding that was in the Catholic Church, even though that is not our faith. I also spent lots of time with each of my girls, coaching soccer teams, taking them on campouts, playing basketball in the yard, teaching them to ride bikes…

These are all wonderful things, however aside from spending time with your kids, they were not necessary. Treating them as such may be clouding your judgement.

What I fear is that my daughter has been “caught” in a situation where my son in law sees her as needing to have continuous babies. I don’t know why the term “rapid fire” hit such a nerve, because I do think that having a kid every 18 months is pretty rapid! I don’t even think she’s allowing her body and mind to heal between pregnancies. It’s just… on to the next.

I agree that these pregnancies are close together, but that doesn’t mean she’s caught in this situation. You stated in your original post that your daughter is happy with the situation, and that should be the focus. Unless you’re her doctor, you aren’t the authority on how healthy this is for her. She may not be the same as you remember, but that doesn’t mean she’s broken.

Asking me which kid I would rather her not have had is silly. I love each one, as does my wife. But it is very hard to see my daughter adopting this bizarre mindset at the behest of her husband WHO DOES NOT EARN A DECENT LIVING. Now, if he made good money, bought his family a home and they didn’t have to scrimp by, AND it was HER idea to have 10 kids - fine. But this is his religion telling them that “God only sends what people can handle.” And frankly, I just don’t believe that mentality. We have to work for what we want, we make our own luck, and we can’t say that God “sends us” good things, while he only “allows” bad things. It’s one or the other. It’s cute to think that God “sends us babies” like some otherworldly stork, but in fact babies are, as many pointed out, a result of a physical act. If we don’t do the act, no babies. God doesn’t decide to send them anyway!

1. Has she said she’s having a large family because her husband wants to?
2. You don’t get to decide what ‘a decent living is’. Period.

3)It’s clearly her idea to have a large family too, unless her husband is raping her.

1. They now share a religion, so it’s their beliefs (or would be if the Church taught that you have to have as many children as possible). You don’t agree with their beliefs, but you don’t have the right to impose your beliefs on them because you believe they’re wrong.

So I think people need to be prudent. We live in the society we live in, not rural Africa and not 1930. My daughter is so smart and talented. I am not saying she should be a working mom or support her family (my own wife stayed home for 15 years to raise the girls), but she should fulfill her potential and not just throw away her dreams - and they were HER dreams - just so that she can provide her husband with endless children.

You seem to be fixated on the fact that this is her husband’s idea and she doesn’t want it. Get over that, she’s an equal partner in her marriage and has made her decision.

She had dreams that changed when she married and became a mother. That doesn’t mean she isn’t fulfilling her potential, it means her priorities have shifted. When I was younger I had dreams too, and when I finally achieved them I wanted out. It wasn’t for me, even though I thought it was what I wanted. My parents have never forgiven me for that decision, but it was the correct one to make. I’m now very thankful that my husband wasn’t in the picture when I made my decision, because that means they can’t blame him for it.

I do not have a problem with larger families at all, but when you see your child throw away her dreams and just adopt someone else’s idea of what a “good wife and mother” is and does, it’s very upsetting.

Once again, it’s her idea now.

 

[The_Bucket]

I don’t doubt your sincerity, your love of your children and your love of your grandchildren for one second, OP.

But I do think that you care about stuff because you’re not worried that they’re going to starve, freeze or cannot afford medical care. You are worried that your grandchildren will not all have music lessons, private school, and again, all kinds of stuff that your kids had. Providing for your children is good. It’s great even! But you can’t attach riders the way you want to do.

If you want your grandchildren to have nice things and your daughter and son-in-law to have a nicer house than you can afford, you need to give it to them. No strings attached. I’m not saying you should. Or that it’s even a good idea. Personally I think it would be a bad idea to do that. Your money though, your choice. Ultimately, however, if you want them to have all these things and they can’t afford it, you have to give it away freely. As Christ said: “Lend and expect nothing in return.” Borrowing money from family is a terrible idea as repayment issues will lead to major trouble. Giving money to family members with even emotional strings attached is, likewise, a terrible idea.

And finally… did you ever ask her if the kids were her idea? Or if she was being “forced” into it? Maybe, as maryjk said, her goals changed. Her plans changed. So what?

If you think she’s being emotionally abused and manipulated or even outright controlled and raped or something to be forced into having kids every 18 months, take it up with the authorities. If you think she’s just changed her mind, ease up.

I get it. You gave your daughter a lot of nice stuff and then she went and married someone of a different religion who has the audacity to potentially be poor. GASP How embarrassing for you that you have to now be related to people with lesser incomes.