Help me.

[ak29]

Firstly, thanks for the information on the rosary, I never knew that!

I agree about it being a stronghold. I have tried to deal with it, it many ways, and none have worked.

Agreed, that the clothing are not really vice in of its self, but I think that as long as she immerses herself in this culture, of darkness, and stuff like that, she will continue to follow, the more sinister elements of the culture. Just my opinion.

I am having many troubles along with my parents trying to get her out fo this. The most trouble I think comes from my mom, she nows its bad, but thinks my sister, is just in a stage. She now has realized the problem is much more serious.

Guys, The problem is my sister, like you said is in a strongold, and in fact I find so many contradictions, any advice on how to reach her would be great, let me give you an example or two.

1. She says she can’t believe in a religion that is intolerant of people, an example she gave is homosexuality, but yet, one thing she oftens likes to say, is that she hates everybody in the world, and really has no friends, I guess that part of the whole idea, that goths are you know, supposed to be loaners and apart from the world. I know she doesnt truly mean those things, but touts them to try and fit in.

Ill try and give more examples as they comeback to me.

To be honest guys, I just dont understand, how she became this goth, when before she was one of those blonde, cheerleader types, for lack of a better description.

I think the best way for us to start is just rid her her access to these people and culture, but we don;t know how we can keep her preoccupied and off the idea.

Thanks
Andrew

 

[LukeQ]

Egg4Christ,

Your analogy of Computers and porn does not fit. The origins of these two are different. Goth’s origins are both pagan and occult.

Referring to Goth as just a style is unrepresentative of all Goth sub cultures. Most Goths are a combination of the following types:

Romantic Goth
attitude: My capacity for love is certainly greater than this mortal coil can bear.
clothes: Anything with lace and frills: Edwardian, Victorian, renaissance.

Mopey Goth
attitude: Gentle people always perish in an unkind world.
clothes: romantic, modern.

Fetish Goth
attitude: Gentle people are excellent for spanking.
clothes: leather, PVC, fishnet, chains.

Perky Goth
attitude: Woohoo!
clothes: modern, fetish, cyber

Raver Goth
attitude: If it don’t glow, it don’t show.
clothes: phat pants, t-shirts, tank tops, flourescent thingies

Goth Geek
attitude: It’s better than being a plain geek.
clothes: modern

Vampire Goth
attitude: Vampires are cool.
clothes: formal, jetset, romantic.

Pagan Goth
attitude: The occult and/or celtic religions are cool.

Ren Faire Goth
attitude: The Renaissance Faire and role-playing games are cool.
clothes: medieval, renaissance, Scottish.

Other dark people
Deathrockers, rivetheads, metalheads, weekenders

Goth origin is evil, it is not cool. “Coolness” should also not be a contributing factor as to whether something is right or wrong, safe or harmful. Dispensing of fact through emotion by referring to people with opposing arguments as “tightwads” weakens your arguments.

Look at the facts

1. Goth origin is evil - pagan and occult
2. Its culture is counter culture, anti authoritarian
3. Its philosophy is uncharitible to the less fortunate or weak
4. It attracts people with low self esteem who want to feel as though they belong
5. It adversely affects behaviour in teens - secretiveness, rebellion, fascination with the occult and morbidity, sexual perversion, impairs rational thought and decision making by anchoring heuristics on the construct of the Goth Cult etc. etc. etc.

Looks to me as though Goth is many things the Church opposes. Even from a secular perspective, its behaviours would be classified as unhealthy.

Luke

 

[ak29]

Thank you so much for that Luke. It was a fascinating read. I looked at the tell tale signs, and they certainly do fit my sister characteristics.

Thanks
Andrew.

 

[SusanL]

Egg4christ:

Hey, remember not to go overboard. I agree with you completely when confronting the issue of the ouiji board, but Goth itself is often simply looked at as a clothing style.
Goth is: Mostly black clothing
big on chains collars, ect.
often painted fingernails, black of course.
These things are not bad, however cultures often associated with them are. For instance, satanists, wiccans ect.
Please, be careful about what you condemn. If you go too far and throw out the baby with the bathwater, you are simply destroying your image, turning yourself into a tightwad opposed to anything “cool”.
For instance, computer use for porn is growing today. However, you would not want to claim that computers are evil, because then all of your statements would be seen as “over the top” including the correct ones about the dangers of pornography.

Well, I have to disagree with you. When you put this clothing all together it gives an image. It makes a statement. Chain collars? The fact that there is such a strong association with Satanic and Wiccan groups would be enough for me to lay down the law in our household. And I would be so uncouth (smile) as to check up on them unannounced in school.

I am a Mom. I am the gatekeeper in this house.

Uncool? Great!!!

Unhip? Wonderful.

Anything that takes my family away from Christ we have to watch out for.

I have been 13. I know what it’s like to be 13. I also know what it’s like to be 42 (going on 43) and all the years in between. I have lived through my “stupid” years but not without scars. I say “stupid” because I made some very stupid decisions in my young years. (That would be my 20’s). I only got through them alive through the grace of God and a lot of prayers from others.

Don’t believe all that the world teaches you. They lied through their teeth to me back then and they’re still telling the same lies now.

 

[rayne89]

We have a “resident goth” on the forum here and she is hardly evil. Generally speaking kids that gravitate toward “dark” styles have reasons for it. You’re always going have wanna be’s but happy kids don’t generally get attracted to dark, angry music and styles of dress.

Certainly staying out all night is a huge red flag, and no child should have internet access in their bedroom period. But if the rules become so rigid you’ll be in for a serious battle. 13 is an age when kids are just started to figure out who they are and they want to be different then their parents.

I wore a dog chain (it matched my hubby’s -boyfriend at the time). Goth was just starting up and we were really considered burn outs not goth. I never took drugs, I didn’t try to conjure demons or cast spells. You can’t paint all kids with such a broad brush. My mom had become mentally ill and things were very difficult at home and my hubby had a very abusive father and likewise had a rough time. Every piece of clothing I owned was either black or gray, I listened to heavy metal and the beginnings of what is considered goth (we called alternative at the time).

It’s is scary to have teens in the day and age. There is so much bad stuff out there. Things like immoral internet sites, hanging out with friends that are not trustworthy or are questionable- yes a parent should step in. But clothing style as long as it is not revealing or has vulgar or satantic references is not immoral in and of itself. Black nail polish never turned someone into a satanist.

 

[SusanL]

rayne89:

We have a “resident goth” on the forum here and she is hardly evil. Generally speaking kids that gravitate toward “dark” styles have reasons for it. You’re always going have wanna be’s but happy kids don’t generally get attracted to dark, angry music and styles of dress.

Certainly staying out all night is a huge red flag, and no child should have internet access in their bedroom period. But if the rules become so rigid you’ll be in for a serious battle. 13 is an age when kids are just started to figure out who they are and they want to be different then their parents.

I wore a dog chain (it matched my hubby’s -boyfriend at the time). Goth was just starting up and we were really considered burn outs not goth. I never took drugs, I didn’t try to conjure demons or cast spells. You can’t paint all kids with such a broad brush. My mom had become mentally ill and things were very difficult at home and my hubby had a very abusive father and likewise had a rough time. Every piece of clothing I owned was either black or gray, I listened to heavy metal and the beginnings of what is considered goth (we called alternative at the time).

It’s is scary to have teens in the day and age. There is so much bad stuff out there. Things like immoral internet sites, hanging out with friends that are not trustworthy or are questionable- yes a parent should step in. But clothing style as long as it is not revealing or has vulgar or satantic references is not immoral in and of itself. Black nail polish never turned someone into a satanist.

Hi Rayne. I don’t know if your post was in reaction to mine or not. I hope you don’t think that I’m painting all kids with the same brush. I’m not. You had a really rough time of it and so did your husband. It would be interesting some time to hear what brought you so close to the church.

I just believe that clothes can make statements about who we are. A clothing style that is a combination of different things, not just black nail polish (although I would wonder why choose black- but that might be personal taste).

It is hard to be a teenager today and very hard to raise teenagers because society is constantly constantly fighting us. And society is slick. Our best hope is to pray constantly for our kids, be vigilant and, yes, choose our battles.

 

[rayne89]

SusanL:

Hi Rayne. I don’t know if your post was in reaction to mine or not.

Yes, I was responding to your post and others of the similar vein.

As far as why black? Because it’s not a “happy” color and I wasn’t a happy person. Black is associated with feelings of anger, sadness and emptiness. Black clothing doesn’t cause depressed, angry kids. Depressed angry kids gravitate toward black clothing. Take the clothing away and you still have a depressed angry kid was really my point.

How did we come back/convert to the church? I was raised a nominal Catholic and married at 18 outside the church. I always believed in God and spoke to him almost daily. When I became pregnant with our daughter I felt “called” to return to my church. My husband’s journey was quite different. He was raised JW part of his life, Pentecostal part of it, a bit a Baptist and a lot of nothing. He was pretty much an atheist by the time he reached adulthood.

His journey was a slow process. He was attracted to the church because of the quiet spituality and to be honest the rituality of the liturgy. He was battleing alcoholism due to chronic undiagnosed depression that stemmed all the way back to his early teens. He began to develope a relationship with God through AA and came into the church 2 years after our daughter was born.

He still puts on his combat boots with metal plating and spikes, vampire fangs and black trench coat every halloween to take our daughter trick or treating -and she loves it. (My hubby is now 34 by the way ) Our dog chains are tucked away in a memory box somewhere.

SusanL:

Our best hope is to pray constantly for our kids, be vigilant and, yes, choose our battles.

Amen! :yup:

 

[SusanL]

Oh Rayne. What a story. You know, you ought to write that down sometime. It would make a good book.

 

[LukeQ]

Hi Rayne, As you have written, just because a person wears Goth cloths does not mean they are evil. The interest in Goth may only be as deep as the fashion. I would dare not accuse anyone of being evil.

There is a clear distinction between discerning the nature of evil things, constructs, philosophies, religious practices and the people who are involved in such things.

However, is a Goth fashion wearer fully aware of the Goth fashion statement and what it represents? The fashion of Goth, like it or not, is symbolically pagan and occultish representing the origins, philosophy and religious practices of devout Goths and elements of satanism.

So, why would a devout Christian want to wear a fashion that is representative of a devout Goth?

Is the Goth fashion in this case offensive to God if it is representative of a pagan religion of the occult?

An analogy this year was when Prince Harry from the UK was caught wearing a Nazi symbol as a joke. He obviously does not support the philosophy of Adolf Hitler but wearing the symbol was disrespectful to Holicost victims.

Is Goth fashion disrespectful to God?

Luke

 

[SusanL]

Hey Luke! I hope you didn’t think that I was saying that those people were evil. :nope:

 

[LukeQ]

Not at all Susan. I was responding to Rayne’s post a few up from yours clarifying that I was not thinking anyone was evil.

Okay - I think Susan, myself and Rayne are in agreement that no one in or mentioned or indirectly referred to in this thread is evil.

Goth has evil origins, that’s all.

Let’s keep Andrew’s sister in our prayers.
Luke

 

[SusanL]

Whew! Thanks, Luke. I’ve had a couple of posts really misunderstood elsewhere. It’s amazing how we all come from different reference points and hope to be understood. (smile).

Yes, I agree. We need to pray for his sister. And all young people who are confused and seeking answers.

 

[rayne89]

LukeQ:

However, is a Goth fashion wearer fully aware of the Goth fashion statement and what it represents? The fashion of Goth, like it or not, is symbolically pagan and occultish representing the origins, philosophy and religious practices of devout Goths and elements of satanism.

So, why would a devout Christian want to wear a fashion that is representative of a devout Goth?

Is the Goth fashion in this case offensive to God if it is representative of a pagan religion of the occult?

An analogy this year was when Prince Harry from the UK was caught wearing a Nazi symbol as a joke. He obviously does not support the philosophy of Adolf Hitler but wearing the symbol was disrespectful to Holicost victims.

Is Goth fashion disrespectful to God?

Luke

Well a 13 year old girl is not interested in symbolic pagan and occultish origins.

I guess the problem would be with intent. Cremation used to be forbidden for Catholics. Cremation was seen as a pagan activity and denied the doctrine of the Resurrection. Now Catholics are allowed to be cremated provided the reasons for choosing it does not counter Christian belief.

Candles, incense and genuflecting were all part of pagan practices yet when we use these things we are not intending to represent a pagan religion.

This is certainly getting off topic of the OP’s original question but I’m addressing the point that anything associated with pagan practices is automatically offensive to God.

Certainly satantic symbols are offensive but black clothing certainly isn’t other wise our priests would be in big trouble.

 

[rayne89]

LukeQ:

Okay - I think Susan, myself and Rayne are in agreement that no one in or mentioned or indirectly referred to in this thread is evil.

Let’s keep Andrew’s sister in our prayers.
Luke

 

[Michael_Welter]

ak29;

The best thing you can do for your sister is to love her, unconditionaly. My older sister after high school. She got married, then divorced within a year, and ran off to Texas with another man. After 6 months, she came back for a two week visit. My parents and I decided that we would love her and not try to convince her of anything. We had a wonderful two weeks with her, and at the end, she called Texas, and had all her stuff shipped home. Love can break the toughest chains.

 

[justine]

ak29:

Guys, thank you for all your help. Let me give you an update.

She came back today, around an hour ago.

My entire family did not sleep the entire night, me and my father were searching for her by foot for 2 hours, and then my uncle came and went by car.

The police spent two divisions looking for her, and countless manhours. I am very disappointed in my sister, heres the complete story.

My sister met up with her friend and two guys, my mom allowed it, on the condition they call in a half hour, and are back in one. My mom never got a call, searched the place they were suppose to be and couldnt find her so they called the cops. Her cellphone was off, so we couldnt reach her, and had no contact information to contact those boys. Basically the police sent out 2 divisions looking for them, and posted a media report. They tracked the phone records and found the guy. This morning. My sister and friend had already left toward my house.
They had spent the night had the guys house, no parental supervision… Doing God knows what.

When they cameback, they claimed they went to a mall, and didnt have any money to get back, and the cellphone died. Of course, the story was full of holes. For starters cellphone was on, and working. And of course, in a mall with 15K people they couldnt have got a quarter.

They even tried to lie to the police, but the evidence was overwhelming, so they admitted it. My entire family is shocked and totally, overwhelmed. Were taking our time, and trying to handle the situation gently.

Thanks for your support guys, I’ll make another thread to give you an update.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks
Andrew

I am still praying for you and your family. I have had difficulties with my teenaged son. It can be very scary. Pray your rosary daily!

 

[ak29]

Guys let me give you an update as to this situation, I myself am deeply shocked as to what is going on.

On monday, my mom had to go to the local grocery store, my sister asked to come as well, my mom said ok. On the way there, my sister sees one of her friends at a parkette, she asks if she cans stay. My mom said that they need to build trust, so she agrees. (the park is like 2 mins form my house and 5 from store.)

10 minutes later, my mom goes back to the park, and guess what, shes gone. My mom phones my sister, and she says I am at so and so park. My mom goes there, shes not there, phones again, and she says no actually i am at so and so park. My mom goes there, shes nowhere to be found.
They do tis like 5 times until, she finally catches up with her, and those two guys are with her again. My mom freaks, and yells at my sister, and those guys, than takes my sister to the hopsital to do drug tests, they came back negative( but I know they were planning to smoke or w/e but didnt have time)
Listen to this guys, at the hospital the doctors were on my sisters side, sayign my mom is too over protective. My mom didnt know what to say, but I certainly know what I would say " You are not a psychiatrist, and if me being againdt my 13 year old sleeping at guys houses is overpotective, there is something wrong with your morality.) However, my mom was just in shock and dint say anything.

Meanwhile guys, heres the worse part. One of the guys, that I guess is the lover of my sisters friend, who will remain nameless. Phoned her, and said that he doesnt like her anymore. My sisters friend, swallowed 23 aspirins, and slit her wrist 5+ times, shes in the hospital right now, and they dont know whats going to happen to her.

My entirely family is still in shock they dont know what to do. As well as my sisters friends mother.

My dad and mom are most likely going to file a restraining order, and phone the cops.

My sister, broke rules twice, and she wants to compromise, but her deal includes she can sleep at the boys house, and meet up with them. Of course my parents won’t agree to that.

Well thats a lot to take in for me. I thought it be better if I share it with you guys.

Thanks

 

[SusanL]

I am absolutely floored!! Stunned!!

Knowing what I know now about life, I would have told those doctors off. I wouldn’t have at an younger age.

To build trust, your sister has to earn trust and she hasn’t had time to do it yet. Meaning that she should have no privileges and should be supervised 24 hours a day/ 7 days a week. Trust has to build slowly.

What does your Dad say?

I will pray for your family as well as your sister’s friend and her family. Wouldn’t hurt to pray for those 2 guys as well.

Face it. Society is against us, especially against the parents. We get undermined all the time and have to fight the influence.

 

[ak29]

Well, my dad is of course, disgusted by whats going on. He took today off from work, to try and talk to my sister, maybe put some sense in her. Its effect I guess will be known in a few days. My dad and mom dont really know what to do. But after the second occurence, she certainly will not have any privelages in the house.

Regarding trust, I completely agree, I think my mom is too much of a softy, but I am pretty sure, that now, after the second incident, she won’t be that stupid again, and if she is I don’t know what to say.

My sister and mom are at the hospital right now, with the friend.

My mom is going to put her through some counselling, and were probably going to go speak to a priest, or have him come ot our place( if possible.) to discuss it.

My dad is still in total shock, he said he’s afraid to go to work, constantly thinking that when he comes back she’s gone.

Thanks
Andrew

 

[koda]

I was going to make this post even before I read about the suicide attempt and now feel it is even more important. I was about your sister’s age when I started suffering from clinical depression. The problem was nobody at that time even considered kids and depression. Everybody told me to cheer up. It didn’t work. Depression is extremely alienating. There was no Goth scene back then but I think there is something about depression that draws you to the darker side of things (perhaps Satan getting at you when you’re weak). I became obsessed with death. I wouldn’t turn the heat on in my room in the winter because I wanted to get used to the cold of the grave. I also got involed with guys in a very bad way. Perhaps this is some kind of subconscious way to attempt to stop the pain and alientation of depression - trying to connect in some way. Of course none of it is rational because most depressed people aren’t rational. I was, unfortunately, in my late 20’s before I got help and by then had a long string of bad, self destructive behaviour behind me. I know there have been issues about teens being on antidepressants, but I would suggest seeing a doctor as soon as you can.