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The_Barrister
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194 posts from DD.
166 of those are thread starters, with a wide-ranging panoply of unrelated questions - most of them a virtual talking points memo of Protestant objections to Catholicism.
A remarkable percentage for starting threads and then not participating in them.
Just an observation.
166 of those are thread starters, with a wide-ranging panoply of unrelated questions - most of them a virtual talking points memo of Protestant objections to Catholicism.
A remarkable percentage for starting threads and then not participating in them.
Just an observation.
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DaveBj
Guest
The Barrister said:
Maybe he just wants to give us amateur apologists a lot of practice
DaveBj
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BLB_Oregon
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The Barrister said:
DD… do you mean “dizzy_dave”? There is nothing better for a Catholic apologist than a Protestant “talking point” and forum on which to discuss the truth about these common misconceptions.
This guy has a lot of questions, and he came to the right place to have them answered! (You’ll notice he doesn’t argue with orthodox answers except to ask clarification… you don’t think he’s one of the moderators in disguise, do you?)
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The_Barrister
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Just an observation…
Most people who start a thread are interested in the answer, and either discuss it some more, ask for clarification, or at least say “Thanks for answering!”
Eh, just an observation. Don’t mean nuthin’ by it.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
I think everyone who advises caution is very sensible 
- this area is a minefield.
What I would do, if I were trying to show how Mary fits in to the Christian plan of creation & redemption, is begin with what is familiar. Not with the “tricky Catholic stuff” - because it is that, that needs to be explained; that is what is difficult for a lot of people of good will. People who find it tricky because they, are familiar with the Bible: not with St. Louis de Montfort or St. Alphonsus or St. Maximilian Kolbe.So, I would start with the Bible, and with Christ. Christ is the whole point of Christianity, its source, its goal.
. Therefore, Mary makes sense - like the rest of us - only in relation to Christ. It is Christ Who, in the most true sense possible, “gives meaning to” all of us, Mary included. Christ is the standard and canon and plumb-line for what we all are meant to be. Leave him out of anything, and nothing makes sense - not even Mary.Mary is the first disciple of Christ, with her “be it to me according to Thy word”. Obedience is from “ob-audire”; an obedient person, is a listening person. Mary listens to the angel; to her Son’s reason for being in the Temple; to His reply at Cana. She never puts herself forward - and she never complains. Whatever fears she may have had as a mother, we never hear of them. She listens to Christ, and takes what he says as it stands, without trying to correct it - unlike St.Peter, who was horrified by the first mention of the Cross. Jesus rebukes the temptation to go against His Father’s will when Peter utters it; but Mary never utters such a temptation. She shows immense strength of character, and only for good: most of all at the Cross. She too had to “take up her cross” - just like any other disciple of Christ. Luke shows the beginning of her journey of discipleship - John 19 shows it near its end. Acts 1 & 2 show a further stage in it.
Does she make much of being the “mother of the Messiah” ? No. She let her Son take the limelight - now she lets His other disciples do so. She is completely humble. 1 Corinthians 13 could almost have been written with her in mind; for she never seeks her own, is not jealous; is patient, is kind, and so on. Another potted biography of Mary: Matthew 25.31-46.
What men are, they are, to a great extent because of their parents. Jesus was as really human as we are: he must therefore have been influenced by Mary and Joseph; just like any other son. So, what He was as a man, He was because of them. Which says a lot about them. If Joseph died quite early on, Mary must have had an immense influence on him.
IOW, one can learn a great deal about Mary, even from the Bible alone. Without in any way being specifically “RC”. What we know about Christ, can give us many clues to Mary.
If they really thought about it, Evangelicals would put us Catholics to shame by their love of Mary
Just a few thoughts - hope they help ##
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joshua1
Guest
Just a thought comes to mind. I have been catholic for 19 years and I have always accepted Mary’s place in our doctrines and such. But a thread and I can not remember which one, shed some light on Mary like I have never thought of before, and that Mary being the new Ark of the Covenant. The old ark was very important, Mary replaces that ark. Maybe this approach may shed some light on Mary’s vital role.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
There are interesting parallels - and contrasts - between:
2 Samuel 6 - David brings the Ark to Jerusalemand
1 Samuel - Mary “rises up in haste” and goes to Elizabeth.
Luke 1.35 echoes Exodus 40.38 - both speak of a Divine “overshadowing”
Mary really is the Ark of the Covenant. Because Christ is first.
And look at Exodus 37.1-9 for a description of the Ark and its contents.
The more one thinks about the old Ark, the more one finds about it in Scripture - and the more one finds resemblances and “advance-reminders” to and of Christ and Mary.
Luke is very fond of ideas relating to the Temple and the Liturgy - even the Ascension is described as a liturgical act. The Gospel begins in the Temple. Christ is found there in chapter 2. And so on. ##
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BLB_Oregon
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, at all.
With all possible respect to Mary, I can’t see any solid Scriptural basis for St.Louis de Montfort’s doctrine of a “mediator with the Mediator”. Theological formulations, no matter how ingenious, even those of Saints, cannot trump what the inspired writers say - still less overshadow them. ##
Okay, first off, Mary is a mediator in at least one Scriptural sense that all Christians are not mediators, and that is that God asked her to be mother of the Christ, and she said “yes.”
Let’s see what the inspired writers had to say:
Scriptural: … The angel Gabriel was sent…“The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women.” Luke 1:26-38
Scriptural: Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and cried out in a loud voice “Blest are you and blest is the fruit of your womb!.. Blest is she who trusted that the Lord’s words to her would be fulfilled.” Luke 1:41-45
Scriptural: A woman from the crowd called out, “Blest is the womb that bore you and the breasts that nursed you!” “Rather,” he replied, “blest are they who hear the word of God and keep it.” Luke 11:27-28
That is to say, the Gospel of Luke says clearly that the words concerning Mary in the first two passages were spoken ***by the direct prompting of the Father and the Holy Spirit. ***In light of this, the saying of Jesus in the same Gospel can only mean that Mary is called blessed by the messengers of the Father and the Spirit, not merely because of what she provided in the way of being a physical vehicle, but because of her cooperation with God.
Furthermore, as you are probably aware, Catholics believe that the two accounts of Mary’s life in John’s gospel, in the scenes that open and close Jesus’ public ministry (the wedding at Cana and the crucifixion) both show the unique nature of her discipleship. Nowhere in the New Testament does anyone advocate before Jesus with the demeanor or effect that Mary had in Cana. Her discipleship did not end at the foot of the Cross, for Jesus in saying “Woman, behold your son” and to the disciple “There is your mother” gave her to the Church as our mother.
And more to the point… why do we need Scriptures to get between us and God? Why do we need other people to get between us and God? Because they don’t get in the way! By the Will of God, our acceptance of their help points us to the Way, which is to say they all point us to Jesus. If you thought Christians could afford the idea that one might avoid reading Scriptures or going to church in favor of going “straight to God”, then I suppose your argument concerning Mary might make some sense. Otherwise, I don’t think you’re being internally consistent.
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AlanFromWichita
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Given all the comments about this poster, has anybody checked that Leo XIII actually said that?
I suppose in some abstract way no one could ever have approached Christ if He didn’t have a mother? Maybe he was talking about some subtle mystical mechanism that operates without us knowing? Maybe, but it sure doesn’t sound like it.
This obviously makes it sound like you specifically, consciously have to go through his mother. Granted, it doesn’t say that, but if it does then I will go ahead and step into the minefield. I can’t believe anyone with authority would say that one must consciously pray through Mary to get to Christ. Christ said (John 16:23-27):
If I take Christ at His word here, I would guess I don’t have to explicitly pray through Mary.
For what it’s worth, there’s my stand on it, with absolutely no references to back it up except the above scripture. I’ll stick to that unless it is demonstrated it to me that I am wrong – Leo XIII or no Leo XIII.
Alan
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Thomas2
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Geee willicurs,
I’d point out that the reading she is referring to says “so to speak,” in referring to the sentiments expressed in the text in question. I’d point this out and read the pamphlet with her slowly and answer as many questions as I could in the process. Many of us who develope devotion to our Blessed Mother express ourselves in sentiments that are hard for some folks to understand. You could ask your wife to pray to our Lady herself, asking Mary to help her understand what it is she is missing in her own devotions to our Lady. You could also ask her to meditate on the second Luminous Mystery, the wedding at Cana, which I think builds up our trust in our Lady’s intercession, but that is just my best guess about the fruits of the mysteries attached to the decades in the newer mysteries of the Rosary!
The book mentioned, The Secret of the Rosary by St. Louis Marie de Montfort is also an excellent suggestion as would also be True Devotion… by the same author. There is also John Paul II’s Book of Mary that is published by Our Sunday Visitor.
Hope some of this helps.
Peace and all good,
Thomas2
I’d point out that the reading she is referring to says “so to speak,” in referring to the sentiments expressed in the text in question. I’d point this out and read the pamphlet with her slowly and answer as many questions as I could in the process. Many of us who develope devotion to our Blessed Mother express ourselves in sentiments that are hard for some folks to understand. You could ask your wife to pray to our Lady herself, asking Mary to help her understand what it is she is missing in her own devotions to our Lady. You could also ask her to meditate on the second Luminous Mystery, the wedding at Cana, which I think builds up our trust in our Lady’s intercession, but that is just my best guess about the fruits of the mysteries attached to the decades in the newer mysteries of the Rosary!
The book mentioned, The Secret of the Rosary by St. Louis Marie de Montfort is also an excellent suggestion as would also be True Devotion… by the same author. There is also John Paul II’s Book of Mary that is published by Our Sunday Visitor.
Hope some of this helps.
Peace and all good,
Thomas2
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dizzy_dave
Guest
The Barrister said:
It amazes me how people worry so much about how many threads I start, why the concern???
I always thought we learned things by asking questions, my wife is a Baptist convert to Catholicism, naturally she’s going to have questions. I’m 32 and never took my faith seriously until a year or two ago so in a sense I’m new at this too. I’m sorry I’m offending certain people with asking so many questions I was under the assumption that was one of the purposes of the forums. To all you other people Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions, your answers are well received. I’ve learned a lot over the past couple of months
CAN ANYONE RECOMMEND ANY EASY TO UNDERSTAND BOOKS ON MARY? Thanks!!!
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BLB_Oregon
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dizzy_dave said:
From what I’m reading, you’re looking for apologetics, not devotional works. This may sound obvious, but have you tried the Catholic Answers library? If not, use the orange bar at the top of the page to go to “home”, and you can find the library from there.
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cmcruz
Guest
Scott Hahn has a great tape on Mary–as a convert, it helped me a lot. He explains Marian doctrine from the perspective of Scripture, which is particularly helpful for once-Protestants. (I don’t remember the name of it, but I bet CA sells it.)
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
For a little bit different approach to Mary, one that I found very inspiring, Contemplative Outreach has a tape by Fr. Thomas Keating, O.S.C.O. called Mary, the Mother of God. As a cradle Catholic, I never really was interested in Mary until I saw that tape. It costs 25 bucks, so you might want to check with your diocesan library first.
contemplativeoutreach.org/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=COB&Product_Code=V-212&Category_Code=IVTBFTK
Alan
P.S. Some on this forum will tell you not to listen to Fr. Keating for various reasons, so I’ll hereby save them the effort of having to post a protest to my advice. I say judge for yourself. Keating and his teachings have helped me find peace that neither the world nor mainstream diocesan activity did. He and his group have renewed my faith in Catholicism at a critical point in my faith journey.
contemplativeoutreach.org/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=COB&Product_Code=V-212&Category_Code=IVTBFTK
Alan
P.S. Some on this forum will tell you not to listen to Fr. Keating for various reasons, so I’ll hereby save them the effort of having to post a protest to my advice. I say judge for yourself. Keating and his teachings have helped me find peace that neither the world nor mainstream diocesan activity did. He and his group have renewed my faith in Catholicism at a critical point in my faith journey.
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Anne_Carmel
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tuopaolo
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I think Fr Thomas Keating is a New Age advocate of “centering prayer.” I would stay away from his material.
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mrS4ntA
Guest
Try Scott Hahn’s Hail, Holy Queen.
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Hesychios
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A New Age advocate? How so?
Would you care to elaborate?
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tuopaolo
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He founded the Centering Prayer Movement which is New Age or occult in nature. I don’t know much else about it. Here’s a website which tells you more about it:
crossveil.org/lectio.html
The EWTN library also has some articles on Centering Prayer. Just do a search for “centering prayer” (without the quotation marks).
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