Help! My convert Wife needs help with MARY!

[AlanFromWichita]

tuopaolo:

I think Fr Thomas Keating is a New Age advocate of “centering prayer.” I would stay away from his material.

Dear tuopaolo,

As I said, “Some on this forum will tell you not to listen to Fr. Keating for various reasons, so I’ll hereby save them the effort of having to post a protest to my advice.”

Since you decided it’s worth the effort to post a protest to my advice, I am very curious why you think this. Let’s “take it outside” this thread, though. I started a new thread just for this purpose. I want to hear you out. I am in nearly daily contact with Contemplative Outreach’s area representative and would like to know what you and others’ problems are, whether real or perceived. If you would prefer to send me personal messages, I will not reveal your identity on this board or to CO.

Here is the URL to the thread I started. I hope to see you there soon!
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=13373

Alan

 

[Cephas]

this might help…

you got any children?..if not then try to recall growin up at home as a kid…:

you cann always go to daddy…but for some reason…you’d go to mom first…

---

now on a different foot–

1. if your quote is right…then it say “approach”…not “pray to”;
2. it follows perfectly with the hierarchy of a Kingdom…(check out 1 and 2 kings)… Jesus is King in heaven. On earth, the kingdom that God gave to his people had a king…the queen wasnt his wife…it was his mother. Many approached the queen when wanting to ask favors of the king (with the thought that while the king might reject my request…he would not reject the request of his mother)…the king was there and would have received their requests…but they opted to go through the queen to beg of the king… Mary is his mother.

 

[dominosNbiscuts]

## A problem with that second paragraph, is that there is no clear support for it in Scripture. St.Paul’s description of the Christian’s access to God is this:

With all possible respect to Mary, I can’t see any solid Scriptural basis for St.Louis de Montfort’s doctrine of a “mediator with the Mediator”. Theological formulations, no matter how ingenious, even those of Saints, cannot trump what the inspired writers say - still less overshadow them. ##

**(1) From the feared and hated Protestant King Jim version of the Bible:

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (KJV 1 Tim 2:5)

(2) The official annointed Roman Catholic version of the Bible - the NAB:

**“For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human,” **(NAB 1 Tim 2:5)

(3) My personal favorite - The New International Version of the Bible:

**“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” **(NIV 1 Tim 2:5)

**God’s richest blessings to you all!

DB

 

[Thomas2]

Here’s a nice little poem/prayer that might help the two of you:

Lovely Lady Dressed in Blue

Lovely Lady dressed in blue ----
Teach me how to pray!
God was just your little boy,
Tell me what to say!

Did you lift Him up, sometimes,
**Gently on your knee? **
Did you sing to Him the way
Mother does to me?

Did you hold His hand at night?
**Did you ever try **
Telling stories of the world?
O! And did He cry?

**Do you really think He cares **
If I tell Him things ----
Little things that happen? And
**Do the Angels’ wings **

**Make a noise? And can He hear **
Me if I speak low?
Does He understand me now?
Tell me ----- for you know.

Lovely Lady dressed in blue ----
Teach me how to pray!
God was just your little boy,
And you know the Way!

Mary Dixon Thayer who wrote more than one poem for Our Lady, is the author.
This prayer-poem was popularized in the 1950s by Archbishop Fulton Sheen.
link to site this was found at: catholictradition.org/index1.htm

 

[dizzy_dave]

What about Mary being the Mediatrix of all graces can someone give us more information on that specific topic, we hit a snag with that, WHY is she the “dispenser” of graces? Thanks

 

[Hesychios]

I would also like someone to describe exactly what that theory means in their own words, without referring us to some website or book to read.

What is a “mediator of all Graces?”

Can there be more than one?

Does it mean that all TYPES of Graces will go through the mediator, but not necessarily 100% of any type of Grace?

Does it mean that all Graces MUST go through the mediator and no other way?

Does it mean that all Graces will go through one mediator (like Mary) and then through another (like Saint Francis)?

What about our own mediation? Do we not in some way mediate God’s grace as well? As in “instruments of God’s will”. How does Mary fit in with that, is this idea one of “we can do nothing without Mary?”

I am not being facetious here, if someone can explain these things in plain language perhaps there will be less scepticism and confusion on my part and others’ part as well.

In the Theotokos,

 

[tuopaolo]

dizzy_dave:

What about Mary being the Mediatrix of all graces can someone give us more information on that specific topic, we hit a snag with that, WHY is she the “dispenser” of graces? Thanks

Well we might not know exactly or fully why, but God made her that way so He must have had good reasons for it. I think maybe God wanted to honor her, to crown her merits which are His own gifts.

Our God is a God who wants to share His goodness and to lift us up to be His co-workers, to share in the work of His love. Take a look at mothers and fathers. They cooperate with God’s work of love in procreation! What a wondrous thing! Likewise Mary cooperates with the mediation and dispensation of graces and this too is a wondrous thing but probably not as wondrous as Mary’s being the Mother of God.

Here’s a website which gives you more information about Mary as Mediatrix of all graces:

www.voxpopuli.org

You might also try:

www.marymediatrix.com

 

[tuopaolo]

Hesychios:

What is a “mediator of all Graces?”

I think it means that she somehow cooperates in the distribution of all graces. In Mary’s case she is also mediatrix of all graces in the sense that she conceived and gave birth to the Son of God, our Redeemer.

Can there be more than one?

I suppose so but we don’t know of any others. It’s important to realize that Jesus and Mary’s mediation is not “parallel”; the latter derives from the former. It’s not as though there are two separate ways to receive grace from God; there’s only one way and it comes from the Head (Jesus) and the neck (Mary).

Does it mean that all TYPES of Graces will go through the mediator, but not necessarily 100% of any type of Grace?

No it means that all graces (100% of all types) come through the mediator.

Does it mean that all Graces MUST go through the mediator and no other way?

In Mary’s case it’s not that it must go through her; it’s that it does go through her. God could give a grace apart from her but because He chooses to honor her in this way, in actuality all graces do go through her.

Does it mean that all Graces will go through one mediator (like Mary) and then through another (like Saint Francis)?

I think in some cases it may go through Mary and then through another saint, but not in all cases.

What about our own mediation? Do we not in some way mediate God’s grace as well? As in “instruments of God’s will”. How does Mary fit in with that, is this idea one of “we can do nothing without Mary?”

Yes we also mediate in some sense and some ways. Priests mediate grace to us through the sacraments. In Mary’s case she is so intimately united with the Trinity that all graces flow through her.

 

[Hesychios]

Thank you for responding, I appreciate it.

Any one else that might have any comments, I encourage to write in.

tuopaolo:

I think it means that she somehow cooperates in the distribution of all graces.

In Mary’s case she is also mediatrix of all graces in the sense that she conceived and gave birth to the Son of God, our Redeemer.

I see (and have always seen) this as a one-time event taking place in space and time, not some unending continuum.

I understand Mary’s “yes”.

I suppose so but we don’t know of any others. It’s important to realize that Jesus and Mary’s mediation is not “parallel”; the latter derives from the former. It’s not as though there are two separate ways to receive grace from God; there’s only one way and it comes from the Head (Jesus) and the neck (Mary).

Is this a theory, or is there a dogmatic pronouncement to back this up? What you are saying is that Mary is a unique conduit of Grace. The neck analogy works for what you are stating, however I am not convinced that what you are saying is true.

No it means that all graces (100% of all types) come through the mediator.

Ditto

In Mary’s case it’s not that it must go through her; it’s that it does go through her. God could give a grace apart from her but because He chooses to honor her in this way, in actuality all graces do go through her.

You are thus saying that we know that God never works in any other way, if I read this correctly. What is your source for this claim?

I have read some early baptismal formulas and the Didache. I have read the Creeds and I have never seen this idea put forth in them. Yet if true, it would be a most important doctrinal element.

I think in some cases it may go through Mary and then through another saint, but not in all cases.

This sounds to me like a new theory taking over from the ‘Communion of Saints’ belief.

This definitely needs clarification.

Yes we also mediate in some sense and some ways. Priests mediate grace to us through the sacraments. In Mary’s case she is so intimately united with the Trinity that all graces flow through her.

I will probably have more questions as I think of them. Thank you for responding.

 

[Sea_Knight]

dizzy_dave:

What about Mary being the Mediatrix of all graces can someone give us more information on that specific topic, we hit a snag with that, WHY is she the “dispenser” of graces? Thanks

dizzy,

please see my response in post #17. If we understand the Mary’s relationship to both the Body and the Head, we can see how all graces flow from the Head to the Body through Mary, and she affects our relationship to the Head.

In that she is “full of grace” she is already what the Church is in the process of becoming. In that she is already crowned with glory, she foreshadows the glory that will be one day bestowed on the Church.

I like to think of it this way. I did not “spontaneously appear” on this earth - I am here because I was born of my mother. It was she who (humanly speaking) brought me into this world and mediated my existence. In a similar fashion, Mary is the Mother of the Church, and it is through her, in a wonderful mystery involving her free cooperation with the Spirit, that the Church is brought into the world. A child in the womb is brought into this world through the mediation of the mother; in the same way, the believer is brought into the Church through the mediation of a Mother. One cannot have God for a Father who does not have Mary as a Mother.

Hope this helps. It took me a long time, and a lot of prayer, to come to accept this teaching.

 

[iguana27]

Dizzy,

As a convert, I would say - don’t push Marian doctrine or devotion with your wife. If she asks questions, be prepared with a response, but allow the Holy Sprit to work in His time in her heart. In no way is devotion to Mary a requirement for her salvation, so just allow her to come to it (if she ever does) in her own time.

Marian devotion is a wonderful thing, but it is not an end in and of itself. She should be allowed space to be able to explore (or not explore) it at her own pace.

Good luck,
Iguana

 

[Joanna]

I like to think of Mary as the receptacle of all Grace (Jesus), and, quite factually, as the dispenser of all Grace (again, Jesus) as well. She actually did more than merely receive His Body into her own. He was brought forth through her and Jesus’ human body was nourished by her, both in the womb and at the breast. His body in her womb actually drew substance from her as do all children from their mothers. She is sublimely intimate with the Bearer of our Salvation by the Will of the Father and her “Fiat”; uniquely, Mediatrix of all grace.

Coredemptrix speaks of her cooperation in these marvelous and actual events without even touching on mystical events and mystical union. Their intimacy in life, and their intimacy in Jesus’ death; Mary’s receiving Christ’s Body from the Cross (the Body of Christ-mystically the Church) places Mary with Jesus in a substantive role, all pre-ordained by God the Father. Even Mary’s presence as the Church was born from the side of Christ as the lance pierced open Jesus’ side and the Blood and Water poured forth (signs of our redemption and of our baptismal waters). Again Mary’s presence at Pentecost situates Mary with Christ’s Church in the Father’s plan as faithful and indispensabe handmaiden by the Father’s Will.

Mary is the bearer of Christ’s life from the womb to the tomb. She carried Him in her heart when she could no longer carry Him in her arms. She is the receiver of His body, the redeemed Church from the Cross as redemption was won and at Pentecost as the Church, His Body, was brought forth into the world. Mary is nothing without the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and Mary is absolutely all the Trinity called her to be.

 

[Pax]

Mediatrix and co-redemptrix are terms that will certainly bother our Protestant brothers and sisters. The terminology is Catholic and has to be explained by Catholics because the words mean something different to non-Catholics.

In this regard it is important to look at the meaning of “the one mediator between God and Man.” Every Catholic would agree with our Protestant brothers and sisters that this statement refers to Jesus alone. We all know that only the blood of Jesus was shed for our redemption. Only Jesus died on the cross. Only Jesus could provide the propitiating sacrifice to God because only God in the flesh could provide a sacrifice of infinite worth. That having been said, non-Catholics should be able to see that Catholics mean something different when they refer to Mary with the aforementioned terms.

In scripture we read about being co-workers with Christ. This is evidenced by the following verses:
Rom 16:9
Greet Urbanus, our co-worker in Christ, and my beloved Stachys.
1 Cor 3:9
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, [ye are] God’s building.
2 Cor 6:1
As we work together with him, we urge you also not to accept the grace of God in vain.
3 Jn 1:8
Therefore we ought to support such people, so that we may become co-workers with the truth.

As co-workers with Jesus we are in no way equal to Jesus. So it is with Mary. She is given the aformentioned titles in recognition of her unique and predestined role in God’s plan of salvation. No other co-worker in Christ shares her unique position or role and so her titles are appropriate, and they are in keeping with scriptures descriptions of all Christians.

In Colossians 1:24 the apostle, Paul, makes the statement, “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church.” This verse should be very upsetting to anyone that gets nervous about the titles the Church places on Mary. So far I have not heard anyone condemn Paul for having said this.

 

[duck]

Jesus calls us his brothers.If we are indeed his brothers and Mary is his mother then…

 

[Philomena]

Go to Catholicity.com and order the free CD, ‘The Truth About Mary’ It’ll do all the work for you when your wife listens to it. God Bless!

 

[Joanna]

iguana27:

Dizzy,

As a convert, I would say - don’t push Marian doctrine or devotion with your wife. If she asks questions, be prepared with a response, but allow the Holy Sprit to work in His time in her heart. In no way is devotion to Mary a requirement for her salvation, so just allow her to come to it (if she ever does) in her own time.

Marian devotion is a wonderful thing, but it is not an end in and of itself. She should be allowed space to be able to explore (or not explore) it at her own pace.

Good luck,
Iguana

Dizzy_Dave,

While honoring all that Mary is, I do think this advice from Iguana27 is a prudent course. One move of the Holy Spirit can prepare, illuminate, and convince a willing soul. Jesus walked with His disciples for three years. He walked them through the hard to accept concepts even allowing some to walk away. He entrusted them to the Holy Spirit.

Jesus watched Peter deny Him knowing that even this denial would bind Peter closer to Him. The Holy Spirit brought Peter to a still deeper conversion with just one piecing glance from Jesus. Wait, pray and have a ready answer. Then wait and pray somemore.

 

[Thomas2]

Hello Dizzy Dave

When you get done reading and praying all the stuff you’ve already been directed to and after you catch your breath, try reading the tracts on Mary at CA’s home website. You can also get some good books from these guys on Mary, including Hail Holy Queen, by Scott Hahn. You might try reading through some of this stuff with you wife before bed. Sure beats watching the tube!

Peace and all good,

Thomas2

P.S. Keep us abreast of how things are turning out!

 

[Joanna]

Pax:

Mediatrix and co-redemptrix are terms that will certainly bother our Protestant brothers and sisters. The terminology is Catholic and has to be explained by Catholics because the words mean something different to non-Catholics.

In this regard it is important to look at the meaning of “the one mediator between God and Man.” Every Catholic would agree with our Protestant brothers and sisters that this statement refers to Jesus alone. We all know that only the blood of Jesus was shed for our redemption. Only Jesus died on the cross. Only Jesus could provide the propitiating sacrifice to God because only God in the flesh could provide a sacrifice of infinite worth. That having been said, non-Catholics should be able to see that Catholics mean something different when they refer to Mary with the aforementioned terms.

In scripture we read about being co-workers with Christ. This is evidenced by the following verses:
Rom 16:9
Greet Urbanus, our co-worker in Christ, and my beloved Stachys.
1 Cor 3:9
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, [ye are] God’s building.
2 Cor 6:1
As we work together with him, we urge you also not to accept the grace of God in vain.
3 Jn 1:8
Therefore we ought to support such people, so that we may become co-workers with the truth.

As co-workers with Jesus we are in no way equal to Jesus. So it is with Mary. She is given the aformentioned titles in recognition of her unique and predestined role in God’s plan of salvation. No other co-worker in Christ shares her unique position or role and so her titles are appropriate, and they are in keeping with scriptures descriptions of all Christians.

In Colossians 1:24 the apostle, Paul, makes the statement, “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church.” This verse should be very upsetting to anyone that gets nervous about the titles the Church places on Mary. So far I have not heard anyone condemn Paul for having said this.

:clapping:

 

[dizzy_dave]

**Thank you everyone, very good suggestions! I will be sure to check into all of them if I can. Thank you and God bless you all!!! **