Help: My wife is very hurt and isn't recovering

[TheLastUnicorn]

Here are excerpts from his original two posts that cumulatively give me great concern for her mental well being.

"But all these pains are adding up cumulatively. Every few months I slip up (it’s a smaller and smaller slip up each time). But each time, she suffers more than the last time. It adds up to the point where yesterday I simply mentioned that I was tempted to do one of those things (I didn’t’ actually do it though). And she was shaking and crying and completely unable to do any of her motherly duties all day, instead watching television on the couch all day and practically neglecting the children (she homeschools them, and this is very unusual behavior for her, usually reserved for one of these instances).

she repeatedly tells me that during the rest of our good times (which are much more often than these bad times) that she’s actually faking being happy and that she’s hurt inside and constantly remembering all the pain even when smiling. She says she’s trusted me over and over, too many times, and she just can’t let herself do it again because she can’t risk more pain and suffering.

the last time this happened was a month ago, when I told her how I had bypassed our porn filter and gave her instructions on how to prevent me from doing it again. That set her into a downward spiral that left her unable to do anything for our children or barely even for herself for a whole week, not talking to anyone. I gave her space because she asked for it, but she didn’t get any better.

The point I’m making is that her pain builds up cumulatively, so that any time I do the smallest thing that would normally cause the smallest amount of pain to her, she suddenly feels the pain from every single thing I’ve ever done to hurt her, and it overwhelms her to the point where she said she feels “numb inside” and “I didn’t even think it was possible to be in this much pain” and such.

The first thing on my mind should be to address my own sins and their causes and figure out how to avoid it in the future and pray for repentance. So, it’s backwards. I’m not given any room to grow and learn from my mistakes, because I’m constantly dealing with trying to stop her nuclear bomb from exploding every time and getting bigger than last time.
she said that she feels like God just doesn’t care about her, considering that God just lets her get hurt.

She’s said before that she wants to live separated. That she wants to not be intimate with me every again"

This is why I recommend that he respect her wishes and not approach her sexually. Ultimately to repair the situation enough that they can both get the help they really really need.

I agree it’s obvious he’s traumatized her quite a lot and he should thank his lucky stars she isn’t just filing for divorce, but he needs to discuss this with her, plain and simple. Spouses have to discuss sex with each other. He can’t just stop trying to initiate things, he has to decide with her that they are going to abstain, if they’re going to. That may well be what she wants and it may well be what they should do, but that is for them to decide as a couple.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Except when discussing sex puts her in a depression spiral for days.

btw not requesting sex is not unilaterally deciding that there will be no sex. By quoting my response, I assume you had read it. Re-read my response to you and you will see where I said if she requests it that’s great.

Re-read my response where I acknowledge that you said that. I still disagreed with you and said that requiring her to initiate is not fair.

I am not saying that he needs to walk through the front door tonight, take his wife in his arms, carry her to the bedroom and have his way with her. I’m saying that he needs to say “Honey, I know things have been really rough lately, and I am doing my best to repair our marriage. In the meantime, would it be better for you if I took the pressure off and no longer initiated intimacy?” His wife has had enough choices made for her. Let her have a say in this one.

No spouse has a right, ever, to completely disengage sexually without so much as a discussion. Sex is an integral part of a healthy marriage, and walking away from that without letting your spouse know what you are doing and why is a cruel joke.

As for his wife: forgiveness is a choice, and it can be a very difficult one. However, that is the choice that she made. It will take a long time for them to move past all of this. However, in choosing to stay, she chose to work. Refusing to talk to him, refusing to see a priest and/or a counselor, etc is not ok. If she’s going to do this, she has to be willing to at least try to move forward. They will have no chance at solving their problems until she does.

 

[whm]

I agree it’s obvious he’s traumatized her quite a lot and he should thank his lucky stars she isn’t just filing for divorce, but he needs to discuss this with her, plain and simple. Spouses have to discuss sex with each other. He can’t just stop trying to initiate things, he has to decide with her that they are going to abstain, if they’re going to. That may well be what she wants and it may well be what they should do, but that is for them to decide as a couple.

Ideally yes! If you start out a marriage with great communication. This is not an ideal situation. This is an extremely serious situation. Let me be a little blunt, women in her situation, in her state of mind, after all this trauma, often feel like an advance is a violation. I think the two of them need a cooling off period. I doubt that there is anything he could say in this area that would not cause a problem at this point. Again he should be as nice and caring as possible. But ultimately I would wait a month or so then find a way to say that he is respecting her space, because it is true that she may become suspicious. He may then have built up a tiny amount of goodwill and perhaps avoid additional pain for her and his words backed up by action might mean something to her. Then if he establishes a good track record after several months( or longer), she may agree to some counseling or seeing a priest.

 

[whm]

Sex is an integral part of a healthy marriage, and walking away from that without letting your spouse know what you are doing and why is a cruel joke.

It is not, it can be, but it can also be absent and still be a healthy marriage.

He wouldn’t be walking away, he is respecting her wishes. His words have no meaning to her until he has backed them up. This is a very specific situation where she goes into severe depression when he speaks to her about this stuff. It sounds like some really bad stuff has gone down in the past. If this was a somewhat more normal situation, yeah I would agree with you. For this situation be really nice and wait a month and choose your words really carefully.

 

[underacloud]

To those of you who apparently refuse to read all that I’ve written here, your misinformed and hostile advice is not really helpful. So feel free to keep it to yourself.

I assume this is directed at me.

I am sorry you found my advice to be hostile. I assure you I read all that you wrote and that my advice was offered with the best of intentions. It clearly came across as overly blunt and lacking charity so I appologise for that.

I stand by the general content of the advice offered - noting that many other posters have given similar thoughts and advice - but see that I could have offered it differently. As whm notes, a more “measured response…might ultimately be more effective”.

God bless.

 

[TheLastUnicorn]

Ideally yes! If you start out a marriage with great communication. This is not an ideal situation. This is an extremely serious situation. Let me be a little blunt, women in her situation, in her state of mind, after all this trauma, often feel like an advance is a violation. I think the two of them need a cooling off period. I doubt that there is anything he could say in this area that would not cause a problem at this point. Again he should be as nice and caring as possible. But ultimately I would wait a month or so then find a way to say that he is respecting her space, because it is true that she may become suspicious. He may then have built up a tiny amount of goodwill and perhaps avoid additional pain for her and his words backed up by action might mean something to her. Then if he establishes a good track record after several months( or longer), she may agree to some counseling or seeing a priest.

Personally, I don’t think a less than ideal situation is made better by less than ideal behavior. The ideal thing is for them to talk before they abstain by agreement if that’s what they agree to do (1 Corinthians 7:5) and it’s more respectful for him to talk to her and get her agreement than just to make a decision without discussing it.

If he just suddenly changes his behavior without talking to her, she’ll have every reason to be suspicious that something is up. She already doesn’t trust him and not saying anything is likely deepen her mistrust. He shouldn’t confide his every temptation and sin to her, but he should keep her in the loop in matters that concern them both.

To me it seems like this marriage is in very deep trouble. Not communicating when they should will, I think, just make things worse.

 

[probleman]

Except when discussing sex puts her in a depression spiral for days.

That’s not what happens. Sorry for not being clear earlier.

If I discuss these matters with her when we’re both in fine moods (and there is no present temptation in me), in order to work together to find solutions (we’ve discussed many routes, including whether she wants us to be abstinent), then she will be visibly hurt for an hour or two, but in a few hours will have recovered.

If I say “I’ve been under a lot of temptation today” she will feel very hurt for a few hours and be despondent, lying on the couch empty-eyed, and will go to sleep early. But by the next day she will be acting normal again (though she says she still feels pain).

If during sex I suggest we do anything besides plain old missionary, although nothing immoral, then she will get more upset, and be despondent late into the next day.

If she finds out that I’ve pleasured myself (which only happens about once a week now a days, and which I make an effort to hide from her) then she will be hurt for several days, doing the bare minimum in life.

These are the reasons I came here to ask for advice on how she might be able to get the best kind of help for her. Because, these are not healthy responses, and signs that she is not healing from the past.

 

[probleman]

I agree it’s obvious he’s traumatized her quite a lot and he should thank his lucky stars she isn’t just filing for divorce, but he needs to discuss this with her, plain and simple. Spouses have to discuss sex with each other. He can’t just stop trying to initiate things, he has to decide with her that they are going to abstain, if they’re going to. That may well be what she wants and it may well be what they should do, but that is for them to decide as a couple.

We’ve discussed many many options. We’ve discussed separation and living separately (valid option for Catholics). But she told me that living separately would be like me running away from the problem instead of facing it, and that when we come back together, we’ll still have the exact same problems.

We’ve discussed being abstinent indefinitely. But she said she doesn’t believe that’ll help, because she firmly believes that it’s a biological need for a man to have that “release” once or twice a week. And having studied medicine for a time, she believes she has a lot more credibility than anyone I can cite on this. She also believes every priest struggles with masturbation, and that even the Saints and Apostles struggled with masturbation weekly. She cites St. Paul’s “it would be better to get a wife than to burn with passion” as proof that he struggled with it.

We’ve discussed altering our life to be more prayer-filled – we almost never pray together. She told me many times that the only time she tries to pray is when falling asleep in bed, and that her mind has trouble wandering. We’ve discussed reading spiritual books regularly. But she keeps herself busy during the day, homeschooling the kids and browsing Yahoo News and Craigslist (free section). And at night, she keeps herself busy with arts and crafts projects or more aimless Yahoo News browsing.

(And I didn’t tell her about this, but I am thinking of planning a trip to Lourdes for us, because I think I’ve been given a gift of faith as St. Paul called it, and I firmly believe that, while prayer and fasting is good, that God also works miracles through the physical world as well. Even those who went into St. Peter’s shadow were healed, through faith! Even those who touched the tassel on Christ’s cloak were healed! Even the woman with the hemorrhage for 18 years was healed when she boldly went up secretly and touched Our Lord’s cloak! She was unclean according the Mosaic Law, but her touching Our Lord did not make Him unclean, because it is impossible to make Him unclean; rather by her reaching out to touch Him, He made her clean! My dear wife probably won’t respond to this suggestion with as much hope as I have, but that won’t discourage me.)

So we’ve discussed several routes, and I’m making a point of it to do my part to heal myself, reading spiritual works every day, and praying several times a day. I haven’t started the Novena yet, because I keep forgetting to. I’m also going to sign up for ReclaimSexualHealth.com as soon as I get my next paycheck.

Also, I should make it very clear that these pain-filled times are the exception for her and not the rule. Most of the time, we are very happy and we do a lot together, and are generally very good about taking time to do what the other one wants (We watch movies she wants to see, and she asks me to read to her, and we go for walks, and such). These situations that I’ve outlined in my cry for help for her, they happen only a few times a year, and each time is at various degrees. Lately, only once a year does it get so bad that she’s on the couch for days, empty-eyed.

So yes, she’s clearly not recovering fully, and I am seeking help for her because I love her and care about her. (That doesn’t imply that I’m not also seeking help for myself.) But in my initial cry for help, I didn’t make it very clear just how often this cycle happens. And it is getting better over time. A few years ago, it was happening twice as often. I do see a big improvement in both of us this year and last year. And I expect it to get even better, although I came here hoping to find more expedient ways for us to heal, for obvious reasons.

 

[987mk]

You said you went to jail for abusing your wife and kids.

Then you said your wife won’t talk to outsiders because she doesn’t want people to see you as a monster, or have the police called, child services involved or the family ripped apart.

My concern is these unknown kids and their health + safety. If your wife talking to the outsiders runs the risk of the protective services or police getting involved, begs the question, have you been held to account for your past abuses and are your kids safe?

Police and child services only get involved if abuses have not been adequately dealt with.

No?

 

[whm]

That’s not what happens. Sorry for not being clear earlier.

If she finds out that I’ve pleasured myself (which only happens about once a week now a days, and which I make an effort to hide from her) then she will be hurt for several days, doing the bare minimum in life.

Okay, thanks for clearing that up a bit. If you stop the once a week thing, you might find that many of your relationship problems improve. Whether she catches you or not the continued engaging in that type of activity has an impact on you and how you relate to others, and other people (i.e. your wife) can tell a difference. Therefore, until you actually stop entirely, you really can’t gage if she is getting over it, because the damage to both you and her is ongoing. If you can go a week you can go 2 weeks, if you can go two weeks you can go a month. Its good that you have made progress to get to where you are, keep on working at it.

Bluelady, and others, I apologize. I over reacted to what I thought I read in his first couple of posts. It appears he can have a conversation with her on this topic without major (dangerous) emotional distress to her.

 

[probleman]

You said you went to jail for abusing your wife and kids.

Then you said your wife won’t talk to outsiders because she doesn’t want people to see you as a monster, or have the police called, child services involved or the family ripped apart.

My concern is these unknown kids and their health + safety. If your wife talking to the outsiders runs the risk of the protective services or police getting involved, begs the question, have you been held to account for your past abuses and are your kids safe?

Police and child services only get involved if abuses have not been adequately dealt with.

No?

Again, there is some miscommunication (and possibly conclusion-jumping). My past is what she’s hurt over, and what she thinks will cause others who get involved to call some authorities. But in the present, there is no danger, only her occasionally feeling way more pain than she knows how to deal with, when reminded of the past. I don’t agree with her about what their reaction would be, and I do think talking to our friends would help her. Especially since I already told them a significant part of my past, just not the more recent (and much more tame) parts.

 

[987mk]

Again, there is some miscommunication (and possibly conclusion-jumping). My past is what she’s hurt over, and what she thinks will cause others who get involved to call some authorities. But in the present, there is no danger, only her occasionally feeling way more pain than she knows how to deal with, when reminded of the past. I don’t agree with her about what their reaction would be, and I do think talking to our friends would help her. Especially since I already told them a significant part of my past, just not the more recent (and much more tame) parts.

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[TheLastUnicorn]

Also, I should make it very clear that these pain-filled times are the exception for her and not the rule. Most of the time, we are very happy and we do a lot together, and are generally very good about taking time to do what the other one wants (We watch movies she wants to see, and she asks me to read to her, and we go for walks, and such). These situations that I’ve outlined in my cry for help for her, they happen only a few times a year, and each time is at various degrees. Lately, only once a year does it get so bad that she’s on the couch for days, empty-eyed.

So yes, she’s clearly not recovering fully, and I am seeking help for her because I love her and care about her. (That doesn’t imply that I’m not also seeking help for myself.) But in my initial cry for help, I didn’t make it very clear just how often this cycle happens. And it is getting better over time. A few years ago, it was happening twice as often. I do see a big improvement in both of us this year and last year. And I expect it to get even better, although I came here hoping to find more expedient ways for us to heal, for obvious reasons.

Sorry, probleman, I think the problems in your marriage may be more serious than you realize.

Your wife has said:
-that even during the times when she seems happy, she’s faking it.
-that she never wants to have sex with you again, (though she has sex with you because she erroneously believes men need a release?)
-that she wants to live separate from you.
-that she doesn’t trust you.

And on top of that, when she anonymously sought help, whatever she said was negative enough that everyone thought she should divorce you.

Apparently she doesn’t think things are going as well as you think they’re going. Not good.

Now, I’m not going to advise you to divorce, but any one of these things by itself would bode very ill. Together they suggest that you guys need to do a lot of work to get your marriage on track. If a family member or friend of mine was in this marriage, I would suggest marriage counseling at the very least and probably also counseling for you and your wife and your kids. I don’t know if she has PTSD, but she may well and so may your kids. PTSD isn’t something that just goes away quickly, and it’s not her fault that she’s still hurting. It would be surprising if she weren’t. It sounds like she’s depressed, hiding it a lot of the time, and not really doing that well. I’m basing that off of what you’ve said she said.

Can I also recommend “What Makes Love Last” by John Gottman? He talks a lot about what makes relationships/marriages work and what’s healthy. I think it could help you see more clearly what isn’t working in your marriage, what your goals should be as a couple and how well things are really going. I’m sorry, but for you to say things are going well after she has confessed that when she seems happy she’s faking it makes it seem like you aren’t seeing how much trouble your marriage is in. Nothing you have written makes it sound like things are going well.

I’m pretty worried for your wife, really, and honestly I hope you guys get the help you need. Maybe things can be repaired and maybe you can have a healthy marriage someday, but I don’t think you are there yet. For her to sit on the couch for days empty-eyed even once a year shows that something is very wrong. It may be a normal reaction to traumatizing circumstances, but my whole life long I have never seen anyone do such a thing even once. I think you should encourage her to get the help she needs, and I think you need to realize that things are not okay if she is still hurting that much, however seldom she lets you see it.

 

[hydin]

Probleman, I can relate your story. I also see one huge issue with your posts that was extremely hard for me to understand… You do not know what she is thinking. You only know what you think she is thinking or what she should think. What she is doing makes sense to her. For you to tell her (with words or actions, doesn’t matter) that what she is thinking doesn’t make sense is an insult to her. Everyone makes sense all the time… to themselves.

You admit you had real issues that caused her to fear you and not trust you. You say she should get over it… Nope, you have to get over it. Admit you are untrustworthy in her mind and that makes sense… to many people… not just her. Sit with that for a while…no reaction… If you lose trust in someone they (which in this case is you) must earn that level of trust back. Every time you “slip up” you are showing your selfish side and are confirming that you can’t yet be fully trusted. Saying that the mess ups come less ofter may ease your mind but it doesn’t matter what you think. It only matters what she thinks. If you truly love her and want to have a chance to keep her as your wife every effort must be given to not disappoint her… EVER. Come on, slipping up by asking for sex act or slipping it in unannounced… trustworthy? Nope. causes you to slip back to zero on the trust scale. If you then tell her how great you are doing and she should forgive you it even makes it worse… Stop the behavior she does not want tonight. Never let it happen again. NEVER… it is your choice. Next time you get an idea in your head to do something she does not approve of pause and think of the tears running down her face when you violate her trust. do not say anything to your wife about this. Just do it. Your words mean nothing now.

Bad news… it will take up to 6 months for her to notice your changes and double that time to consider them real. You have earned that based on your past behavior… which will always matter. You did those things. You knew you hurt her and continued anyway. When she reacted to your returning to your old ways (to what degree does not matter… if she let you get away with one small thing, don’t tell me you wouldn’t have pushed for more… (remember… I have been there brother…)

Understand that anything you do at all that is not acceptable to her just erases all the good you have done since last time. Unfair, not sure… you earned that… If you rise up in anger then her fears are confirmed. you feel SHE should feel that way. SHE feels SHE should. Only her feelings matter… to her. Anything you say to diminish how she feels just confirms that you really don’t care how she feels… which is correct. You can only clean up your side of the street. She controls her side.

I say these things for one reason… I hope you can rescue your marriage before it is too late… I couldn’t. Learned this stuff too late. Great website for more is an amazing gift to all men and women in relationships… it is totally free… alturtle.com

I pray that this email hit you hard… if you are angry, read it again, and again, What you are doing is not working is it? You blame her… If only she would…

To love her means that you want only the best for her, no matter the cost. Even if nothing comes in return. It is selfish to expect sex acts she is not comfortable with. you are not loving her, you are using her as an object. You know her boundaries and CHOOSE to violate them. That makes you untrustworthy in her eyes… you see it as making progress away from bad behavior… it happens less… I would bet, but do not know, that she feels the same…you WERE making progress but took a step closer to the bad behavior. That scares her. Unfortunately you can’t talk those fears away. No matter what you say she is the only one who can choose to trust you again. Remember, you deserve this treatment due to your bad behavior and repeated relapses … makes all the sense in the world… alturtle.com…look at the articles on controlling and boundaries.

I am also puzzled by your mentioning that this happens a few times a year and half as much as last year…once really bad. Why the concern if it is that rare? Why does she want separation if it happens that infrequently? We are here to help…not judge. I have been in a similar situation… no need to correct statements that are criticized or plead miscommunication when things hit a nerve. Do not have any expectations of your wife. No trips that we (=she in her ears) need to take… if you want to go… go. anything you choose or suggest to her is not building trust… it is passive aggressive controlling behavior… we all have done it…Fix you first… that will take all you time for now. have no expectations of her. Let her freely choose her behavior with no hint of suggestion. If you read books she will see you… if she wants to read it she will tell you. Let her.

 

[TheLastUnicorn]

Hydin,

I’m glad you brought up that some of his behavior still sounds abusive/boundary-violating. I thought the same thing, but I wasn’t sure how to put it. That is why I suggested therapy might be helpful for him. I think they may both need to learn what healthy boundaries are, him so he is safe for her and her so she knows (if she doesn’t already) when healthy boundaries are being crossed.

 

[LongingSoul]

Come on, slipping up by asking for sex act or slipping it in unannounced… trustworthy? Nope.

It was this particular aspect of the original post that so violently repelled me that I decided not to participate in the thread. I have never experienced rape but in my line of work, I’ve come across many women that did. This should never happen ever… even in the context of an otherwise consensual meeting. Each time it does her capacity to trust you dies a little more, OP. No rationalisations you attempt can change that. If you do it, it is completely and utterly you that will destroy your marriage. Not her.

 

[TheLastUnicorn]

It was this particular aspect of the original post that so violently repelled me that I decided not to participate in the thread. I have never experienced rape but in my line of work, I’ve come across many women that did. This should never happen ever… even in the context of an otherwise consensual meeting. Each time it does her capacity to trust you dies a little more, OP. No rationalisations you attempt can change that. If you do it, it is completely and utterly you that will destroy your marriage. Not her.

Yeah, honestly, I understand why people have advised her to divorce him. I think she would be totally justified to do so, and I don’t think I could trust a guy who had done that either. Evidently she’s chosen to stay and I really hope he will rise to the occasion but it doesn’t seem too likely. It really doesn’t seem like he realizes how much harm he’s done and how serious the consequences of what he’s done are.

 

[probleman]

Yeah, honestly, I understand why people have advised her to divorce him. I think she would be totally justified to do so, and I don’t think I could trust a guy who had done that either. Evidently she’s chosen to stay and I really hope he will rise to the occasion but it doesn’t seem too likely. It really doesn’t seem like he realizes how much harm he’s done and how serious the consequences of what he’s done are.

You just shot all your credibility to pieces by suggesting divorce is even an option.

 

[LightBound]

You just shot all your credibility to pieces by suggesting divorce is even an option.

Why do you say that? Divorce and legal separation are valid ways to get away from an abusive spouse and are not considered sinful when the safety of the abused spouse and/or children are at stake.

 

[TheLastUnicorn]

You just shot all your credibility to pieces by suggesting divorce is even an option.

It is not a sin to divorce an abusive spouse civilly and to live separately from him until he gets his act together. (catholic.com/quickquestions/is-divorce-a-sin-when-ones-spouse-is-abusive) Even in the Middle Ages spouses lived separately at times if they couldn’t live together safely. If a large group of Catholics advised your wife to divorce you, it’s probably because the behavior she described from you was abusive. Even you describe yourself abusing your wife majorly even after, according to you, the abuse had stopped. Beating someone isn’t the only way of abusing someone. If you are not a safe person, she would be justified in living separately from you.

I never said she should remarry. She shouldn’t if her marriage to you is valid. But she is under no obligation to stay with an abusive man, and even from your side of the story it’s clear that something is majorly wrong. You don’t even seem that sorry that you abused your wife and children. You don’t seem to realize that you are to blame for much of the pain your wife is feeling. It’s not her fault she’s not better nor “should” she be better by now. Especially if you are still abusive, which it sounds like you quite possibly are, living with you may well be hampering her healing. How can she heal from being abused if she’s still living with the abuser? You may have stopped hitting her, but have you stopped other kinds of abuse? Do you recognize verbal and emotional abuse as abuse? Does your wife?

Look, someone who is physically abusive is almost inevitably abusive in other ways. Maybe you grew up in an abusive household (probably in fact.) Maybe you don’t know how to interact in a non-abusive way. Maybe you need to learn. But if you want to save your marriage, you need to acknowledge your guilt, get help, and change to be the kind of man who is capable of loving his wife as Christ loved the Church. Until you see that you need to take responsibility, that you need to change majorly, that just not hitting her isn’t enough, your marriage is going to be 90% okay to you and something your wife pretends is okay except for those times she sits glassy-eyed on the couch and is honest about being miserable.

Good luck, but I doubt many of us hold out much hope for you guys as long as you aren’t acknowledging that you still have work to do and that you need to get professional help for yourself and for your marriage. You should be extremely grateful that your wife is even willing to talk to you and you should be doing everything in your power to become the kind of man she hoped to marry when she was a little girl. Don’t try to change your wife. Work on yourself. If she’s so miserable a bunch of people on the internet advised her to divorce you, there can be no doubt that there is tons of repair work for you to do.