Help! "pro-choice" Bible verses and how can i combat them

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i’m in a semi-heated debate about abortion with a friend online. she asked me about what the Bible says about abortion, and i linked her to this page: priestsforlife.org/brochures/thebible.html

she shot back with something about the page not including the entire verses, so it doesn’t actually support my views. then she provided this link to prove her pro-choice stance: prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/bible.shtml

help!! i don’t know if i’m just not doing the right kind of research, but i can’t find anything that combats these claims… i’m not wavering in my stance, but it’s hard to have a debate when you don’t have a good rebuttal. 😦
 
That’s a long list of Bible verses. I don’t have time to address all of them, but I would point out that God taking someone’s life, in or out of the womb is not the same as someone killing them. Also, Old Testament particular rules don’t apply to those of us who are not Jewish, and anyway not to those after Christ who are Christian. The NT makes that clear.
I would suggest the websites of Priests for Life, LifeSight News, Jill Stanek, and Americans United for Life. Got to go, but hope this helps
 
I suggest that you get a copy of the catechism. About $8. It will solve a lot of such disputes, at least in your mind. Here is the page from an on-line catechism. Read section 2270 and following, with numerical references - many scriptural. But, do not expect your adversary to be convinced. Only the Holy Spirit can do that through prayer. Pray for this person, as they may be in grave sin.
 
Fascinating! I have never read such impressive sophistry before. This is what happens when people trust themselves to interpret scripture alone. This is probably the worst result of Sola Scriptura that I have yet read.

In any event, it is not so difficult to rebut the interpretation of the passages they cite.
“For Thou didst form my inward parts; thou didst weave me together in my mother’s womb…Thy eyes beheld my unformed substance; in thy book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.”
They miss the point. The reason pro-lifers use this quote is because it is very clear that I was a me in my mother’s womb; before I was born I was a created person.
“Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born, I consecrated you and I appointed you a prophet to the nations.’” (Jeremiah 1:4-5)
They argue that Jeremiah was a special fetus. That just because he had attained personhood before birth, as clearly exemplified by this passage, does not mean we all do. That is just silly. They make the same argument for John the Baptist.

Then they go on to the supposedly pro-choice verses. They cite a number a verses that say something along the lines of “it would have been better not to be born.” They take this as support for abortion. It is not. The sufferer says that he wishes he had died in the womb. (To die, you must be alive- point pro-lifers!) That does not mean that he condones killing, in utero or anywhere else. It means he wishes he had died- as it says.

Than they talk about miscarriages in a few contexts. Miscarriages happen. That no more condones abortion than earthquakes condone genocide.

They also cite a few contexts where scripture says that miscarriage would be better than an evil life. Hard to argue. Also, not an argument for abortion. It is an argument for avoiding an evil life.
“When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined according as the woman’s husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”
This one is interesting. They say because a criminal is not killed for injuring a pregnant woman badly enough that she miscarries, that is evidence that the fetus is not seen as a life. Taken alone, that might be the case. In the context of the rest of scripture, that interpretation is ludicrous.

Then they go back to miscarriage.

The last passage they cite is taken from Numbers chapter 5, and it is really odd. It discusses how to treat a woman who is suspected of adultery, but the accusation cannot be proved. Basically, the priest says that if she is guilty she be cursed.
‘If no other man has had intercourse with you, and you have not gone astray by impurity while under the authority of your husband, be immune to the curse brought by this bitter water. But if you have gone astray while under the authority of your husband and have acted impurely by letting a man other than your husband have intercourse with you’-- so shall the priest adjure the woman with this oath of imprecation–‘may the LORD make you an example of malediction and imprecation among your people by causing your thighs to waste away and your belly to swell! May this water, then, that brings a curse, enter your body to make your belly swell and your thighs waste away!’ And the woman shall say, ‘Amen, amen!’
Their interpretation is that scripture condones voodoo. “Virtually all Biblical scholars agree that this voodoo ritual and its cloaked euphemisms refer to an induced (not to mention unsafe) abortion.” Right. That is probably it.

Either that or it could be what it sounds like. “If I am guilty of this offense, may I be cursed with infertility or miscarriage.”

The strangest of their defenses comes next when they use a series of citations about violence against children who are born as evidence for their case. Here it becomes finally clear that they are not making a case for abortion, but against scripture.

I could go on, but this has become tedious.
 
i’m in a semi-heated debate about abortion with a friend online. she asked me about what the Bible says about abortion, and i linked her to this page: priestsforlife.org/brochures/thebible.html

she shot back with something about the page not including the entire verses, so it doesn’t actually support my views. then she provided this link to prove her pro-choice stance: prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/bible.shtml

help!! i don’t know if i’m just not doing the right kind of research, but i can’t find anything that combats these claims… i’m not wavering in my stance, but it’s hard to have a debate when you don’t have a good rebuttal. 😦
THOU SHALL NOT KILL - 5th Commandment of God. Ex20:13 Deut 5:17

Abortion is MURDER for Convenience.
Murder of innocent babies.

50 MILLION babies have been murdered by abortion in the US since 1973 - Genocide.

The right to choose is the right to choose what ? - - Death for an innocent human being.

ehd.org/movies.php?mov_id=44
 
I thought it was odd, the verses they chose to support their view. Even if I was looking at this from the perspective of someone who was pro-choice, the verses they chose do not support their claim. A HUMAN BEING wishing that they had not been born cannot possibly represent that the bible tells us it is okay to have abortions. Feeling that bad about yourself that you wish you’d never been born is actually a sin in it’s self, is it not? I believe that might fall under despair, no?

In other words, I find it hard to base such a touchy subject off of the experience/words of a human being.
 
If you’re not going to convince your friend, and your friend isn’t going to convince you, this might be one of those occasions where it’s better to “agree to disagree” for the sake of friendship, especially if neither of you are in a position right now where it is an “option”. We can’t agree with all our friends on everything.
 
This is my fave:
Three other Biblical passages question the value of an unhappy, painful, or “wicked” life. They aver that it is better to suffer an “untimely birth” (i.e, be miscarried) than live a miserable existence, or worse, live as an evil unbeliever:
“If a man begets a hundred children, and lives many years, so that the days of his years are many, but he does not enjoy life’s good things, and also has no burial, I say that an untimely birth is better off than he. For it comes into vanity and goes into darkness, and in darkness its name is covered; moreover it has not seen the sun or known anything; yet it finds rest rather than he.” (Ecclesiastes 6:3-5)
So, we have these passages where one guy is saying, “I wish I was never born!” like all kinds of people do, especially when we are feeling like 5-year-olds, and another place where the writer uses hyperbole to make a point. Lots of out-of-context Scriptural salesmanship going on. Pro-lifers learned a lot from fundamentalists, it seems.

Oh well. Try this: stop arguing. You believe what you believe: killing a person is wrong. Even very very small people. And that’s good enough.
 
help!! i don’t know if i’m just not doing the right kind of research, but i can’t find anything that combats these claims… i’m not wavering in my stance, but it’s hard to have a debate when you don’t have a good rebuttal. 😦
Maybe you should always discuss with an open mind and not form your conclusion before hearing evidence. Though, I don’t really think the bible is a good source of morality to begin with. I assume you don’t want to stone an unruly child or kill a neighbor not honoring the sabbath or not kill an intruder wanting to kill you.
 
i appreciate the responses, especially the ones who address the fallacy in the pro-choicer’s argument.

my reason for continuing this debate (and let me tell you, it’s been surprisingly civil and i’m pleased for that!) is because i want to learn more. the people who have been involved have brought up points that i’ve never thought of because i had never researched and debated about abortion before. i just took my stance and didn’t do much else about it. knowing their arguments for their position helps me to understand just how justified i am in mine. my friend and i are not at odds, thankfully. we’ve both been kind in our discussion, and have respectfully agreed to disagree.
 
for the record, the point made was that the Bible was not against abortion, not Catholicism, so she won’t be happy if i use the Catechism. i already made the point that i could provide the many historical writings from the Catholic church supporting my view, and she replied with, “my point is proven.”
 
for the record, the point made was that the Bible was not against abortion, not Catholicism, so she won’t be happy if i use the Catechism. i already made the point that i could provide the many historical writings from the Catholic church supporting my view, and she replied with, “my point is proven.”
Note that the Bible came out of the Catholic Church, so saying one is against the killing of unborn children is speaking the same of the other.👍
 
Whats struck at me is that the blogger mentioned that “fetuses do not have a special status.” She is right. They don’t. They are human persons, and as such have the right not to be killed. It is the anti-life crowd that grants them a special status of being sub-human. As far is the verse in Jeremiah, she claims that this was for a single case: Jeremiah the prophet. What she misses is that we are all prophets. We share in the prophetic ministry of Christ. Of course we do not foretell future events (at least most of us). But that is not the primary characteristic of a prophet. Prophets proclaim the Word of God. How many times does the OT say "And the Word of the Lord came to Ezekiel (or Isaiah, or Obadiah, you get the idea). We have the Word of GOd in Scripture, and we share in that ministry by proclaiming the Lord, but also we share in it by persecution, just as Christ said we would. In fact, one of my Bible profs. explained that Matthew 5:12 could be translated as:
Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you prophets.
In other words, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus implied that all who followed him, were in a sense, prophets. If this is true, then the argument about Jeremiah actually strengthens, and not weakens, the pro-life position.
 
Maybe you should always discuss with an open mind and not form your conclusion before hearing evidence. Though, I don’t really think the bible is a good source of morality to begin with. I assume you don’t want to stone an unruly child or kill a neighbor not honoring the sabbath or not kill an intruder wanting to kill you.
Maybe if the pro death killers had minds and hearts that were even partly open to truth 100’s of millions would not have been killed in and outside of their mother’s wombs, but their minds are only open to rationalization of killing, and how to maximize and profit from it.
You might want to think twice though when you use the Scriptures as a means for creating illusions and confusion about moral truth, because you’re actually bringing God as a being into a challenge about His word, not ours.
 
Proverbs 24:11 Save those being dragged towards death, but can you rescue those on their way to execution?

Proverbs 31:8 Make your views heard, on behalf of the dumb, on behalf of all the unwanted.

Abortion is evil.
 
The article cited is disgusting. The author Joyce Arthur uses some of the same arguments used to justify euthenasia, genocide and gunpoint abortions like that experienced by parents in China. The article is an abomination.

Citing Psalm 139, Joyce Arthur says the following:

*For Thou didst form my inward parts; thou didst weave me together in my mother’s womb. I praise thee, for thou art fearful and wonderful. (Psalm 139:13-15)

All this passage states is that God is directly involved in the creation of a fetus and knows its future. This is useless for the anti-choice position, since God creates all living things, including trees and bugs. Plus, just because God is supposedly omniscient doesn’t give fetuses any special status—it simply means God already knows whether they will live or die.*

The author tips her hand, giving us a view as to how much value she has for human life and therefor why she supports the murder of innocent children for convenience. Simply stated, she equates the life of a human being with that of bugs and trees. But let’s see what God himself has to say about human life and that of bugs and trees…

Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground.” God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them. (Gensis 1:26-27)

The Bible clearly states that man, unlike bugs and trees, was created in God’s divine image and that we are to exercise dominion over the bugs and trees and to use them as gifts from God for as food, clothing, and the other things we require for our own wellbeing. Joyce Arthur then makes this chilling statement.

Three other Biblical passages question the value of an unhappy, painful, or “wicked” life. They aver that it is better to suffer an “untimely birth” (i.e, be miscarried) than live a miserable existence, or worse, live as an evil unbeliever

The article then cites three Biblical passages and goes on to say…

Far from bolstering the arguments of anti-choicers, these verses prove the Bible is pro-choice. The contention that quality of life is a more worthwhile pursuit than simply life for the sake of life is a basic pro-choice stance.

So let’s get down to brass tacks here… who gets to decide when quality of life is sufficient to allow someone to live and when quality of life is insufficient for a person to live? And is Joyce Arthur volunteering to pull the trigger? Would Joyce Arthur have us exterminate the homeless? How about those in nursing homes? What about the people who survided the Japanese earthquake but are left homeless without food? Should we just finish the job? Why not just execute everyone over 65? Anyone remember the movie Logan’s Run?

This is the philosophy which gives us genocide, euthanasia and abortion. To use God’s word to justify it is truly diabolical.

-Tim-
 
If you’re not going to convince your friend, and your friend isn’t going to convince you, this might be one of those occasions where it’s better to “agree to disagree” for the sake of friendship, especially if neither of you are in a position right now where it is an “option”. We can’t agree with all our friends on everything.
It’s one thing to try to change hearts and minds, but at what point does “The sake of friendship” take precidence over someone’s view that it is acceptable to kill children for sake of a beach house or so that they can afford his and her Harley Davidson Motorcycles?

-Tim-
 
for the record, the point made was that the Bible was not against abortion, not Catholicism, so she won’t be happy if i use the Catechism. i already made the point that i could provide the many historical writings from the Catholic church supporting my view, and she replied with, “my point is proven.”
You must not have used the 10 Commandments - which is in the Bible.
See my other post in this thread for the exact location in the Bible in two places.

Thou shall not kill.
 
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