HELP!!! Protestant & Catholic views on Salvation

[kristanl]

Can someone please explain this view on salvation while discussing purgatory (Jesus wanting perfect beings to enter heaven) :
you would make them perfect by Christ’s blood being shed on the cross so instead of God seeing us imperfect humans. he sees us as perfect because we are saved by His perfect Son

I understand that Jesus died for our sins and all of that. But I really truly believe that not every sin should not count as the SAME sin. If I murder someone it is a lot different then talking behind someones back. I understand Jesus forgave our sins if we are to enter into heaven. But why do some people not think we need to repent, and become more perfect through confession etc.

I hope I am not digging a bigger hole, I am really just trying to understand this as I hear this type of way of discussing salvation all the time!!

Also, this:
God is perfect and he can save us however He wants. We shouldn’t think that we are able to save ourselves at all… because we cant. Christ did it all.

It justs so hard to talk to someone when they believe this way, because yes we believe grace and faith save us. But we also think WHAT WE DO matters as well.

Please help me understand!!!
Thanks!!

 

[geometer]

It justs so hard to talk to someone when they believe this way, because yes we believe grace and faith save us. But we also think WHAT WE DO matters as well.

Love God with your whole heart, soul, mind and strength. hold no grudge against your neighbor, love your neighbor as your self.

These you must do. Is there something else that you have in mind?

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

It justs so hard to talk to someone when they believe this way, because yes we believe grace and faith save us. But we also think WHAT WE DO matters as well.

My understanding is that salvation is by grace alone.

A priest told me that the RCC teaches that some are predestined for heaven by God. I asked if that meant that those who are not predestined for Heaven are then predestined for Hell. He said no, the Church does not teach double predestination.

I then asked if the Church really teaches that Hell is a place of eternal conscious suffering, and I was told it does. I left the Church because of this doctrine.

 

[kristanl]

Love God with your whole heart, soul, mind and strength. hold no grudge against your neighbor, love your neighbor as your self.

These you must do. Is there something else that you have in mind?

I dont mean to hate a person thats says this, I dont mean it like that… I mean what does the Church teach in comparison to these beliefs, because I believe some of what this person says, yet I believe more then just that. You see what I’m asking. I want to know how to respond to those statements maybe?

 

[kristanl]

My understanding is that salvation is by grace alone.

A priest told me that the RCC teaches that some are predestined for heaven by God. I asked if that meant that those who are not predestined for Heaven are then predestined for Hell. He said no, the Church does not teach double predestination.

I then asked if the Church really teaches that Hell is a place of eternal conscious suffering, and I was told it does. I left the Church because of this doctrine.

So what do youthink Hell is then? It is not heaven for a reason, of course there will be suffering and punishment, you disobyed the Lord, and he doesnt see a place in heaven for you.

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

I dont mean to hate a person thats says this, I dont mean it like that… I mean what does the Church teach in comparison to these beliefs, because I believe some of what this person says, yet I believe more then just that. You see what I’m asking. I want to know how to respond to those statements maybe?

Both Catholics and Protestants believe salvation is by grace. How we are justified seems to differ between the two.

But ultimately if salvation is a gift, then you can do nothing, it either happens or it doesn’t. Do you agree?

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

So what do youthink Hell is then? It is not heaven for a reason, of course there will be suffering and punishment, you disobyed the Lord, and he doesnt see a place in heaven for you.

I do not know if there is a heaven or hell. But according to the Church I cannot go to heaven even if I follow all the rules, unless I’m predestined. Repenting and going to confession will not save you either, you still need to be one of the elect, according to the Church that is.

Hell is probably just a metaphor for death and the grave, in my opinion.

 

[kristanl]

I do not know if there is a heaven or hell. But according to the Church I cannot go to heaven even if I follow all the rules, unless I’m predestined. Repenting and going to confession will not save you either, you still need to be one of the elect, according to the Church that is.

Hell is probably just a metaphor for death and the grave, in my opinion.

I have never heard of the Church teaching predestination in this way. Why would we believe that faith and works save you, if really nothing you do on Earth matters because you are predestined by the Lord??

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

I have never heard of the Church teaching predestination in this way. Why would we believe that faith and works save you, if really nothing you do on Earth matters because you are predestined by the Lord??

The Church teaches that a person is saved by grace through faith which leads to good works. Notice that grace comes first, no grace no salvation. Grace is a gift, you can not earn it or deserve it. Not everyone recieves this gift, that’s why they go to hell, according to the Church.

Only traditional priests will tell you this, it is not something you are often told. I was told that many saints struggled with this doctrine and I can see why.

If hell is just death and non-existence then it would not strike me as being so unfair.

 

[kristanl]

PLUS. Why do you say you do not know if there is a heaven and a hell? It seems you left the CC for other reasons. If you believe there is a GOD why would there not be a place in eternity for you.

Catholics believe we are saved only by God’s grace working in us. Thus we are justified, transformed from the state of unrighteousness into a state of holiness and the sonship of God, on account of Christ. Justification is the merciful and freely given act of God which takes away our sins and makes us just and holy in our whole being. This justification is given to us in the sacrament of baptism. Justification is the beginning of our free response to God, that is our faith in Christ and our cooperation with the grace of the Holy Spirit. Thus Catholics believe in salvation by grace alone, solely on account of the work of Christ. However, neither Catholics nor Orthodox accept the reformation concept of forensic justification or “justification by faith alone.”

Yes, the Catholic Church does believe a person must be born again to be saved. However, Catholics believe that one is born again at Baptism. In fact, when Christians for the first 1500 years of Christianity, including Martin Luther, used the phrase “born again,” they were referring to baptism. The Catholic Church recognizes the possibility of salvation for Protestants and even for non-Christians, although in Catholic Teaching, all salvation comes through Jesus, who is “the Way, the Truth, and the Life.”

Taken from:
ancient-future.net/basics.html

Why does Jesus emphasize doing good works if one is saved or lost no matter what one does?

The Catholic Church teaches that God desires all men to be saved (see I Timothy 2:4). Therefore, if man cooperates with God’s graces he is capable of attaining salvation through the merits of Jesus Christ. God gives everyone sufficient grace in order to obtain heaven. However, not all people receive the same amount of graces. For example, the Blessed Virgin Mary received the singular grace of the Immaculate Conception. St. Paul received the grace of conversion. “To me, the least of all believers, was given the grace to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ” (Ephesians 3:8).

The Church has not defined every aspect of predestination. Therefore, she allows liberty of interpretation within the boarders it has established. In order to be an acceptable form of predestination, one’s theory must contain the following:

1. an emphasis on the Free Will of man
2. note that man must cooperate with God’s graces
3. Jesus’ sacrifice having the potential to save all people
4. that man, born in sin, must be called by God in order to be able to accept Him
5. an affirmation that God predestines no one to hell

God is all knowing. So yes, you might be predestined to be saved. But you can LOSE salvation, so actually confessing, and doing GOOD works, can help you get to heaven.

I hope I am saying this correctly.

 

[kristanl]

The Church teaches that a person is saved by grace through faith which leads to good works. Notice that grace comes first, no grace no salvation. Grace is a gift, you can not earn it or deserve it. Not everyone recieves this gift, that’s why they go to hell, according to the Church.

Only traditional priests will tell you this, it is not something you are often told. I was told that many saints struggled with this doctrine and I can see why.

If hell is just death and non-existence then it would not strike me as being so unfair.

Yes but who do you think God DENIES grace to?

 

[kristanl]

For all you and me both know is God predestines EVERYONE to heaven, and gives everyone that grace, and then it depends on the person what faith, works etc. Are acted upon which help you go to HEAVEN. The Catholic church doesnt teach double predestination for that reason. God should not already condemn someone to hell. He wants everyone to be saved.

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

PLUS. Why do you say you do not know if there is a heaven and a hell? It seems you left the CC for other reasons. If you believe there is a GOD why would there not be a place in eternity for you.

No one can know if there is a heaven or hell, you can believe, but you can not know. I hope there is a heaven and I hope hell is just death and the grave, not eternal torment.

I have recently found away to return to the Church, it is through a better understanding of the teaching about forming our conscience. I thought that we had to accept all that the Church teaches even if it violates ones conscience, as this doctrine did for mine.

The Church teaches that we must follow our conscience first even if it is contrary to Church doctrine, does it not?

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

Yes but who do you think God DENIES grace to?

Hopefully no one.

For all you and me both know is God predestines EVERYONE to heaven, and gives everyone that grace, and then it depends on the person what faith, works etc. Are acted upon which help you go to HEAVEN. The Catholic church doesnt teach double predestination for that reason. God should not already condemn someone to hell. He wants everyone to be saved.

The end is the same. If you are not predestined to Heaven it is the same as being predestined to Hell.

I think that viewing salvation primarily in terms of the afterlife leads to these strange doctrines. I see salvation as being more about God saving you in this life. Saving you from despair and confusion of trying to meet some expectation.

 

[kristanl]

No one can know if there is a heaven or hell, you can believe, but you can not know. I hope there is a heaven and I hope hell is just death and the grave, not eternal torment.

I have recently found away to return to the Church, it is through a better understanding of the teaching about forming our conscience. I thought that we had to accept all that the Church teaches even if it violates ones conscience, as this doctrine did for mine.

The Church teaches that we must follow our conscience first even if it is contrary to Church doctrine, does it not?

Heaven and Hell are not Church doctrines per say, rather they are doctrines Jesus himself taught. It is not something that the Church has assumed on calling something (i.e. Trinity, Purgatory, or even the Assumption of Mary).

Heaven and hell are very much biblical. Beleiving in Heaven in Hell, is something that is the beginning of your faith journey.

These are bible verses about hell, which is how the Church believes hell is not just the grave. You seemed to be very worried about going to Hell, but if you bring Jesus into your heart, and do his will hell is not a place where you should end up. Instead on focusing on heaven and hell you should focus on the glory and honor you can give Jesus, for being our Savior and dying on the Cross for us

Matt. 3:12; Luke 3:17 - John the Baptist said the Lord will burn the chaff with unquenchable fire. This unquenchable fire is the state of eternal separation from God, which the Church has called “hell” for 2,000 years. Some Protestant communities no longer acknowledge the reality of hell.

Matt. 25:41 - Jesus says, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

Matt. 25:46 - Jesus says, “they will go away into eternal punishment” which is in reference to this eternal fire.

Mark 9:47-48 - Jesus refers to hell as where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. It lasts forever.

2 Thess. 1:6-9 - the angels will come with flaming fire and the disobedient will suffer punishment of eternal destruction. It is important to note that “destruction” does not mean “annihilation,” as some Protestant denominations teach. It means eternal exclusion from the presence of God.

Jude 6-7 - the rebelling angels, and Sodom and Gomorrah, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Rev. 14:11 - the worshipers of the beast suffer and the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever.

Rev. 20:10 - they’re tormented in the lake of fire and brimstone day and night forever and ever.

Isaiah 33:14 - “Who of us can dwell in the everlasting fire?” This is a reference to hell which is forever.

Isaiah 66:24 - their worm shall not die and their fire shall not be quenched. We cannot fathom the pain of this eternal separation from God.

Jer. 15:14 - in my anger a fire is kindled which shall burn forever. Hell is the proper compliment to the eternal bliss of heaven.

Judith 16:17 - in the day of judgment the Lord will take vengeance on the wicked and they shall weep in pain forever. Hell is a place that sinners have prepared for themselves by rejecting God, who desires all people to be saved in His Son Jesus Christ. God sends no one to hell.

From www.scripturecatholic.com

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

You seemed to be very worried about going to Hell,

I used to be. For five years I tried to follow all the teachings, I would go to confession often but struggled with the same “sins” over and over. I started to question how repentant I truly was and should I confess anymore. I mastered Catholic Guilt, I became very scrupulous. I see things differently now, God accepts us as we are.

I read the bible but see it in a non-literal way now. If there is a hell of eternal torment then God is not love, as 1 John 4:8 declares.

 

[geometer]

I dont mean to hate a person thats says this, I dont mean it like that… I mean what does the Church teach in comparison to these beliefs, because I believe some of what this person says, yet I believe more then just that. You see what I’m asking. I want to know how to respond to those statements maybe?

Look if anyone is saved they have to be saved by God. Faith means trust, if you can not trust you can’t even know what love is. If you need to be saved from something, you ask God. If you are familiar with God answering your prayers you are good to go.

People are saved because they have asked, he answers prayer, what could be simpler?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Both Catholics and Protestants believe salvation is by grace. How we are justified seems to differ between the two.

But ultimately if salvation is a gift, then you can do nothing, it either happens or it doesn’t. Do you agree?

Grace is a gift.

Salvation is for those who accept and remain in God’s grace.

Those who don’t go to heaven reject the gift of grace.

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

Grace is a gift.

Salvation is for those who accept and remain in God’s grace.

Those who don’t go to heaven reject the gift of grace.

Would God give a gift knowing that you would later lose it? It is either grace or works, if you have to do something to keep it then it is no longer grace.

But anyways I think we are mistaken in obsessing over salvation and the afterlife. I try to see what God wants to save us from in the here and now.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Would God give a gift knowing that you would later lose it? It is either grace or works, if you have to do something to keep it then it is no longer grace.

But anyways I think we are mistaken in obsessing over salvation and the afterlife. I try to see what God wants to save us from in the here and now.

If God truly gave us free will then he must allow us make choices, right?

Do you believe in free will?