Help! Questions regarding Apocrypha

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adurian

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Hi all! The peace of Christ be with you all! I’m new here. Direct to my question:

A Protestant friend is asking me why the Catholic Bible contains some Apocrypha books. I did some minimal research, but I still need to address these issues:
  1. Why are the 7 apocrypha books in the Catholic Canon?
  2. I heard that there were 2 canons to the Old Testament – the one by the Alexandrian Jews and also by the Palestinian Jews. Which did the Catholic follow and why?
  3. The 7 books are referred to as the ‘Deuterocanonicals’. What does the word mean, in what language?
  4. When was the Catholic Canon finalized, by whom/in which council? Were there a few Councils before a final Canon was adopted?
  5. When did Protestants come up with their own canon? Is it directly at the beginning of the reformation? Why did this happen (why are the 7 books excluded)? And who was responsible for this?
Another thing. I opened my Catholic bible and saw the list of Deut. books as follows:
  1. Tobit
  2. Judith
  3. Esther (Greek)
  4. Wisdom of Solomon
  5. Sirach
  6. Baruch
  7. Letter of Jeremiah
  8. Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the 3 Young Men
  9. Susanna
  10. Bel and the Dragon
  11. 1 Maccabees
  12. 2 Maccabees
How come there are 12 books as opposed to the 7 always claimed? Which ones are actually are the 7 books?

I need proofs (citations) to each claim, because it will be very helpful to make a strong stance. If there is a website explaining this, I would be most grateful if you can give me the link. Thank you and God bless.
 
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Witness:
To find clear answers about this, you can go here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=21087&page=3

Beginning from post # 242

🙂
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Thisperson is an anti-catholic who is trying to impart on you their anti-catholocism.God Bless
 
Try this:

cin.org/users/james/files/deuteros.htm

Also note- the Jewish cannon was not determined until 100AD- AFTER Christ, therefore not binding on us. It was because of the threat of Christianity- for those Jews whp did not believe he was Lord- that influenced much of which books were kept and thrown.
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
Thisperson is an anti-catholic who is trying to impart on you their anti-catholocism.God Bless
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🙂 Ahahahay… you remind me of the following passage:

“And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.” ( Acts 16:16-18 )

Lisa, thank you for your good witness! When you wrote this, you testified that there are many interesting things on that page: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=21087&page=3

And specially after the post # 242

:tiphat:
 
Witness said:
🙂 Ahahahay… you remind me of the following passage:

“And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.” ( Acts 16:16-18 )

Lisa, thank you for your good witness! When you wrote this, you testified that there are many interesting things on that page: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=21087&page=3

And specially after the post # 242

:tiphat:
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The Holy Spirit gives Christians a spirit of discernment,in regards to those spreading falsehoods,and your spirit of falsehood was easy to detect.I am sure you think your doing Gods work,but take the plank out of your eye so you can see:p
 
I’m not going to pretend to understand what Witness hoped to accomplish by posting links to other threads that contained not only error, but horrible reasoning (on both sides of the argument). I fail to see how that answered the question. It appeared to be agenda pushing.

The link to James Akin’s article is excellent. I also recommend,

ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ110.HTM

A list of Deutrocanonical references in the NT,

scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html

And an extremely complicated analysis of NT Greek that proves definitively that the NT writers were quoting from the LXX,

home.earthlink.net/~rgjones3/Septuagint/spexecsum.htm

This is a rather hard subject for apologetics when confronted by most Evangelical Protestants. Most of them do not understand Church history enough to take a critical look at their own assumptions, and most are unwilling to take an honest look at the history. In fact, I’ve met a couple Evangelical Protestants who claim that the only inspired Scripture is the King James Bible, thus any discussion of the LXX (along with all other versions, original languages or translations) is irrelevant.

This claim made for an interesting exchange:

Question: What did Christians use before the King James Version?

Answer: Christianity was in darkness before.

Question: What do you mean by darkness?

Answer: Christianity lacked biblical truth.

Question: Don’t you claim that all Christian truth comes from the bible only?

Answer: Yes.

Question: Can you have Christianity without biblical truth?

Answer: No.

Question: So, there was no Christianity until sixteen hundred years after Jesus walked the earth?

Answer: (Without hesitation) That’s right. There was no real Christianity until after the King James Version of the Bible.

I found it nearly impossible to convince this person that there were Christians before the KJV, and I soon found that it would be impossible to convince him that there were Christians outside of his small non-denominational congregation. Everyone else, including all other Evangelical Protestants, weren’t, in his estimation, “real Christians.”

Another, more moderate position is held by my in-laws. One day, my father-in-law told me that he had read the duetrocanonical books (though he was unable to answer some rather simple questions regarding 2 Maccabees), and he said “they just don’t feel right.” I asked him if the Book of Mormon was inspired. He said, no. I replied, but the Mormons say it is because “it feels right” to them; how is your feeling about the duetrocanonical books somehow more valid than a Mormon’s feeling about the Book of Mormon? He was unable to answer this question.
 
adurian,
This link may help shed some light on the deuterocanonicals. I apologise if I am ‘doubling up’ on information. I have not seen this thread mentioned, so it may contain some additional information; also if you check out posts # 3 and # 4 on the link attached to my signature, you will find examples of Deuterocanonical text which has been copied or paraphrased by Jesus and the Apostles.
I pray you find the answers you seek.
geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3975/deuter.htm
 
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adurian:
Another thing. I opened my Catholic bible and saw the list of Deut. books as follows:
  1. Tobit
  2. Judith
  3. Esther (Greek)
  4. Wisdom of Solomon
  5. Sirach
  6. Baruch
  7. Letter of Jeremiah
  8. Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the 3 Young Men
  9. Susanna
  10. Bel and the Dragon
  11. 1 Maccabees
  12. 2 Maccabees
How come there are 12 books as opposed to the 7 always claimed? Which ones are actually are the 7 books?
Click to expand...
The simple answer to this question is that Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, and 1/2 Maccabees (seven books in all) are complete books in their own right. The remainder are parts of previously existing OT books. These parts were in the Greek OT that the 1st century church used (the Septuagint), but they were not in the Hebrew Scriptures.

DaveBj
 
Please see the article in Envoy magazine by Mark Shea

“5 Myths about 7 Books”

Mark Shea provides answers to five common arguments Protestants give for rejecting the Deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament.

Go to the following link:

envoymagazine.com/backissues/1.2/marapril_story2.html

Praised be Jesus Christ…Now and Forever.
 
Hi, adurian.

Whew!

One at a time!

**1) Why are the 7 apocrypha books in the Catholic Canon?
**
There are “7 apocrypha books” because rabbinical Judaism attempting to recover from the incineration of Judaism engineered by Titus decided, around 100 A.D. that those 7 books in the Septuagint (the Bible known to and quoted and paraphrased by Christ) were unrepresented by Hebrew language manuscripts, and seemed “inferior” to them. The Protestant Reformers followed suit in the 16th century.

Since then, researches have found Hebrew language fragments and “Hebraisms” – Hebrew figures of speech indicating an initial Hebrew composition – in the case of a few of the books, indicating that even in applying their own artificial criteria, the rabbis of Jamnia – as well as the Protestant Reformers ratifying their decision – were mistaken.

Additionally, Christ makes use of material in Wisdom and Sirach again and again and again. I have read the claims of some Protestant Bible commentators that Criteria #1 for canonicity is, “Did Our Lord Jesus Christ quote from the book?” Well, they never actually check to see if this is true. If they did, they would see that the Reformers erred very, very, very badly in excluding the 7 books.

In my opinion, the decision of the “People of the Book,” our Protestant brothers and sisters, to regard the 7 books as “uninspired” dramatizes Protestantism’s fundamental error.

How could they reject Wisdom and Sirach? Our Lord Jesus made massive use of those books in His teaching.

As to the others, the existence of Standard Typological Language within their phraseology verifies their inspired state and canonicity for me.
 
hello my dear brothers and sisters!

Thank you for the wonderful, wonderful information! Please keep my friends and i in prayers, as we share our Catholic faith with others 🙂 God bless you all!

-ad-
 
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adurian:
Another thing. I opened my Catholic bible and saw the list of Deut. books as follows:
  1. Tobit
  2. Judith
  3. Esther (Greek)
  4. Wisdom of Solomon
  5. Sirach
  6. Baruch
  7. Letter of Jeremiah
  8. Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the 3 Young Men
  9. Susanna
  10. Bel and the Dragon
  11. 1 Maccabees
  12. 2 Maccabees
How come there are 12 books as opposed to the 7 always claimed? Which ones are actually are the 7 books?
Click to expand...
I didn’t see this answered above as I skimmed the thread, so if it was, then I apologize for the repetition, but the reason there are 12 “books” listed is because some of them are stories that are included in other books.

Specifically, the Letter of Jeremiah is actually part of the Book of Baruch. Esther, of course, is not deuterocanonical, however there are sections that are only present in the Greek (texts of certain decrees). The Catholic Church holds these Greek sections to be canonical. Finally, The Prayer of Azariah, Susannah, and Bel and the Dragon are all parts of Daniel (or stories of Daniel) that are found only in the Greek. The Church includes them in Daniel in the same way as those additional parts of Esther.

The 7 actual books present in the Catholic Canon (that aren’t in the Protestant canon) are 1) Tobit; 2) Judith; 3) Wisdom; 4) Sirach; 5) Baruch; 6) 1 Maccabees; 7) 2 Maccabees
 
Hi, adurian.
  1. I heard that there were 2 canons to the Old Testament – the one by the Alexandrian Jews and also by the Palestinian Jews. Which did the Catholic follow and why?
The Alexandrian Canon, the Septuagint, was the one known to and learned by Christ. It contains the “seven books,” the Deuterocanonicals, as well as the excluded portions of Esther and Daniel.

There is no doubt at all that Christ was familiar with the Alexandrian Canon – that, in other words, it is “Christ’s Old Testament.” Christ paraphrases many verses of Wisdom and Sirach, found only in the Alexandrian Canon, in the gospels. Our Protestant brothers and sisters dramatized their NON-inspiration when they rejected the Alexandrian Canon.

The Palestinian Canon appears to have been the result of an intentional effort by the rabbis of Jamnia, Palestine, around 100 A.D., to resurrect Judaism from the ashes left behind by the Roman army. Though many casually refer to a “Council of Jamnia” which reformed the Alexandrian Canon by excluding seven books and parts of two others, this appears go be something of an “urban legend.” There appears to be no record of any “Council.” It appears that, to make the Old Testament more “Jewish,” the rabbis retained in their canon only those works represented in Hebrew language scrolls.

The Church follows the Alexandrian Canon because it is Christ’s Old Testament.
 
Is it true that there are at least four different sets of apocrypha in the different traditional churches?

Catholic: 1 and 2 Maccabees, Baruch, Daniel additions, Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), Esther additions, Judith, Letter of Jeremiah in Baruch, Tobit, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus).

Slavonic Orthodox: Same as the Catholic Apocrypha plus 2 Esdras, 3 Esdras, and 3 Maccabees, Prayer of Manasseh, Psalm 151.

Why don’t RC accept the Slavonic Orthodox Apocrypha?

Greek Orthodox: Same as Slavonic Orthodox Apocrypha plus 4 Maccabees in the appendix.

Oh, why not accept then the Greek Orthodox?

Historical Coptic: 1, 2, 3 Maccabees, Baruch, Daniel additions, Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), Esther additions, Judith, Letter of Jeremiah, Psalm 151, Tobit, Wisdom of Solomon. However, under Cyril V (1874-1927), The Coptic church later rejected these books as part of the Bible. See The Coptic Encyclopedia vol.1 p.161 for more info.

:confused: Oh! Those Coptics seem to be protestant!!! Excommunicate them right now!!! :rotfl:

:tiphat: When you wanna talk about history and facts, please don’t be hypocrite. Because you will stand before the HOLY and RIGHTEOUS Judge.
 
An FYI to the original poster:

An easy way to remember which 7 books are still included in the Catholic canon is the name - J.T. McWeb

J=Judith
T=Tobit
Mc= 1 and 2 Maccabees
W=Wisdom
E=Ecclesiasticus (Sirach)
B=Baruch
 
The simple answer to this question is that Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, and 1/2 Maccabees (seven books in all) are complete books in their own right. The remainder are parts of previously existing OT books. These parts were in the Greek OT that the 1st century church used (the Septuagint), but they were not in the Hebrew Scriptures.
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Yes thats right they were not in the Hebrew Scriptures and Christ did not read them and did not call them “Scripture”.
 
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Witness:
Is it true that there are at least four different sets of apocrypha in the different traditional churches?

Catholic: 1 and 2 Maccabees, Baruch, Daniel additions, Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), Esther additions, Judith, Letter of Jeremiah in Baruch, Tobit, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus).

Slavonic Orthodox: Same as the Catholic Apocrypha plus 2 Esdras, 3 Esdras, and 3 Maccabees, Prayer of Manasseh, Psalm 151.

Why don’t RC accept the Slavonic Orthodox Apocrypha?

Greek Orthodox: Same as Slavonic Orthodox Apocrypha plus 4 Maccabees in the appendix.

Oh, why not accept then the Greek Orthodox?

Historical Coptic: 1, 2, 3 Maccabees, Baruch, Daniel additions, Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), Esther additions, Judith, Letter of Jeremiah, Psalm 151, Tobit, Wisdom of Solomon. However, under Cyril V (1874-1927), The Coptic church later rejected these books as part of the Bible. See The Coptic Encyclopedia vol.1 p.161 for more info.

:confused: Oh! Those Coptics seem to be protestant!!! Excommunicate them right now!!! :rotfl:

:tiphat: When you wanna talk about history and facts, please don’t be hypocrite. Because you will stand before the HOLY and RIGHTEOUS Judge.
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So will you witness so will you:eek:
 
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