Help settle argument-valid transubstantiation in other churches

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Gorgias said:
and only through apostolic and Petrine ministry does one have that authority.
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Why wouldn’t you rely on the words of Jesus when He said: “For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” Would the presence and power of Jesus be enough to validly confect the Eucharist?
 
AlNg said:
Why wouldn’t you rely on the words of Jesus when He said: “For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” Would the presence and power of Jesus be enough to validly confect the Eucharist?
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Sure… Christ is there. But not sacramentally. That only happens when a person who was commanded “do this in memory of me” – or one authorized by one of these – does so. And, as it were, when one does so by the authority of the Church that Jesus founded. So, yes – I do rely on the words of Jesus! But not on the interpretation that just anyone asserts… 😉
 
AlNg said:
So Jesus is really and truly present when an Anglican priest or when a Lutheran minister prays to confect the Eucharist?
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Not sacramentally, and not in the Eucharist. But, He’s present in the same way that He’s present to any other gathering of two or three in the world.
 
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Gorgias said:
Not sacramentally, and not in the Eucharist.
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I don’t see how you can personally overrule the true presence and the real power of Jesus? He is there with them and by His Power, many things are possible, even to move mountains.
 
GKMotley said:
I defer to JonNC, with reference to your ultimate sentence above.
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Fair enough! And, to be honest, I guess that the claim has been that the teachings about the Eucharist (and therefore, about the Mass and the priesthood) are essentially the same. We’ll see. 🤷‍♂️
 
GKMotley said:
Same can be said for some Anglicans’ position.
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Wouldn’t we make the claim, though, that the genesis of the Anglican church was political, rather than doctrinal, as was with the case with Luther?
 
The Catholic church is the church of Jesus Christ. Others (while well meaning) are churches created by man alone. ONLY in the Catholic church sacrament of Communion can the laity obtain the consecrated body and blood of our Lord. Other churches may have a communion service but it is only symbolic of the Last Supper.
 
Gorgias said:
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annad347:
Lutheran’s believe the bread and wine becomes the body and blood of Christ.
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No… that’s what Catholics believe. Lutherans believe that the bread and wine remains, but that the body and blood of Christ merely become present as well.
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The problem with the term “becomes” is the implication of physical transformation. Lutherans typically avoid metaphysical references. I can honestly say the bread and wine “become” the body and blood, but I think Lutherans are more inclined to say the bread and wine, by the speaking of the verba by the pastor and the power of the Holy Spirit are the body and blood of Christ.
Remember, Lutheran teaching on the real presence tends to avoid metaphysical references such as transubstantiation and consubstantiation.
Gorgias said:
One would trust that @JonNC won’t make the claim, as has been made here, that Lutherans and Catholics teach the same things with respect to the Mass and the Eucharist! 🤔
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The answer, in my view (and that of Lutheran and Catholic theologians) is, no, and yes.
The approach and teachings do vary, but the essence is the same: we both believe Christ’s words in His institution of the Sacrament: we receive His true body and blood, given and shed for the forgiveness of sin.
 
JonNC said:
The approach and teachings do vary, but the essence is the same: we both believe Christ’s words in His institution of the Sacrament: we receive His true body and blood, given and shed for the forgiveness of sin.
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Except that Catholics ground the celebration of the Eucharist in the institution of and ministry of priesthood, and locate it solely in the context of the propitiatory sacrifice of the Mass. You wouldn’t quite assent to that, right?
 
The question of the reality of the presence of Jesus Christ in the Lord’s Supper is not a matter of controversy between Catholics and Lutherans. The Lutheran–Catholic dialogue on the eucharist was able to state: “The Lutheran tradition affirms the Catholic tradition that the consecrated elements do not simply remain bread and wine but rather by the power of the creative word are given as the body and blood of Christ. In this sense Lutherans also could occasionally speak, as does the Greek tradition, of a change.” Both Catholics and Lutherans “have in common a rejection of a spatial or natural manner of presence, and a rejection of an understanding of the sacrament as only commemorative or figurative”
From Conflict to Communion 153
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In 2017, Lutherans and Catholics issued From Conflict to Communion, a summary of positions reached through the official dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation. This statement quotes from the document from @JonNC linked to in his post.

There are still issues around this topic, like ordination and apostolic succession, but faith in the Eucharist is the same.
 
Gorgias said:
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JonNC:
The approach and teachings do vary, but the essence is the same: we both believe Christ’s words in His institution of the Sacrament: we receive His true body and blood, given and shed for the forgiveness of sin.
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Except that Catholics ground the celebration of the Eucharist in the institution of and ministry of priesthood, and locate it solely in the context of the propitiatory sacrifice of the Mass. You wouldn’t quite assent to that, right?
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Well, the celebrant is always from the ordained ministry, as per AC article 14, and it is, by definition, the mass.
Yes, our views of the sacrifice differ. From the Lutheran perspective, our sacrifice is one of thanks and praise. We do share an understanding of the once for all sacrifice by Christ made present for us in the sacrament.
We differ on the propitiatory nature of the sacrament.

So, again, is there complete agreement? No.
Are there significant areas of convergence? Yes.
 
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I’m guessing @JonNC is the resident Lutheran expert?
Gorgias said:
… So, having created a new church for themselves, I cannot picture the Lutheran Church suddenly saying, one day, “meh… let’s just fold our tent and call it a day; we’ll rejoin the Catholic Church”.
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Nor do I expect the Catholic Church to do the same. Which is why they’re talking. I wonder if we can participate in those conversations… that would be an interesting conversation to attend.

Though wouldn’t it be hard to say, you will rejoin something you never left in the first place. I know the Catechism of the Catholic Church; says you did but, did you really if Jesus Christ and His Word the foundation of your Church?
Gorgias said:
You’ll have to explain that one to me. I’m not getting what you’re trying to assert…
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Should we accept what those in authority say or do as gospel, even if what they say or do goes against Gospel? As Christians isn’t it important for us to keep the moral integratory of the Church, to keep it true to the Church founded by Jesus Christ?
Gorgias said:
And you think that the national churches which were born of the Reformation didn’t do exactly that, too?
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Never said Lutherans didn’t have sinners in charge of their church in the past… but Catholics also had sinners in charge of their church in the past. Another similarity, though one I don’t believe either would be to proud to brag about. Which just creates another question about divine authority.

All I said is that Lutherans believe in the Eucharist the same as Catholics. You said they don’t based on what’s written in Catechism of the Catholic Church, not the Bible.
Gorgias said:
No… that’s what Catholics believe. Lutherans believe that the bread and wine remains, but that the body and blood of Christ merely become present as well.
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Catholics believe the Eucharist becomes the body and blood of Christ but the bread and wine remains.
Lutherans believe the body and blood of Christ is present in the Eucharist, but the bread and wine remains.

bread and wine becomes Jesus Christ – Jesus Christ is present in bread and wine. I don’t know that seems like a minute difference to me.
 
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