Help with an ecumenical Bible study

  • Thread starter Thread starter wfr
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
W

wfr

Guest
Hi Gang,
I have a problem that I would like your help with. This morning, for the first time, I attended an ecumenical Bible study hosted at our parish. Of the twelve or so men attending, there were only two Catholics, including myself. We were discussing Acts 8; Peter’s encounter with Simon the Magician. I off -handily mentioned that some early Church writers indicate that Simon later went back to his old ways and opposed Christianity (i.e. Irenaeus Against Heresies; Book I, Chapter 23 and St. Justin of Rome, First Apolog., xxvi, lvi; Dialogus c. Tryphonem, cxx). I did not assert that this was so, I only made a historical observation.

At this the gentleman sitting across from me mumbled under his breath “Sooo …. Simon wasn’t saved. OOOOH K.” I was somewhat taken a back with this as I believed I had made a fairly innocuous statement. This gentleman then looked at the man sitting beside him and they both rolled their eyes. He then slid his Bible over to the other guy and tapped the page with his finger.

At this I asked him if I had said something controversial. His only answer was, “James 5:15.” I asked how this text was relevant to our discussion. He answered, “Read it.” I stated that I knew what James 5:15 said, I just did not understand how it applied to Simon the Magician (actually I knew the “once saved always saved” point he was making). At this he looked at the other guy again and gave him that “stupid Catholic” look and they both smirked. Not wanting to create a stink, especially as I was a new comer to the group, I dropped the issue.

So, here’s my dilemma. The whole point, as I understand it, of an ecumenical Bible study is to be able to discuss differing opinions in a way that respects our differences. If these guys get so bent out of shape over such trivial things, I wonder what is going to happen when a real issue of importance comes up. I would like to continue attending this group, but I need to find a way express my Catholic faith without alienating myself from the group. I don’t want to be labeled as a trouble-maker. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

PAX CHRISTI,
Bill
 
Hi,

Don’t let the rolling eyes and the smirking intimidate you or make you feel alienated. Simply use the opportunity to show them the error of their once saved always saved dogma. Just make sure you do it charitably and earnestly and you will come off the better for it – plus they might actually learn something. You don’t need to have someone try and make you feel stupid for your beliefs, especially when you know you hold all the fullness of the truth. As long as you are not actually trying to be a trouble maker and are trying to defend your beliefs in a gracious but firm manner I don’t see any problem with that. Besides, as Catholics we are taught to turn the other cheek, but that doesn’t mean we need to be pushovers or avoid confrontation when we have a duty to spread the faith. Keep doing what you are doing and continue to question their dogma and they will hopefully decide they need to learn more about Catholicism – even if just to try and refute you better.
 
Sadly, the doctrine of sola scriptura appeals very strongly to the ego. Time after time, fired-up bible Christians come to these fora and teach, rather arrogantly, their personal twist on the scriptures, as it if came to them by revelation. Those two men displayed such an attitude, and that is most likely the reason that they are attending such a study at a Catholic parish. Several members that I can think of (who are not posting any more…:o) have again and again displayed this attitude of arrogance, treating Catholics as simply ignorant and being in need of instruction. It never seems to strike them that we have bibles, too, and read them. It does not enter into their consciousness that they themselves disagree (via “self-interpreting scripture”) with nearly all of their bible Christian brother denominations. Such persons seem to instinctively know that the Catholic Church is a vast void of knowledge and truth, with millions simply being lead into the abyss by the power-hungry Church hierarchy. It really is this bad.

They must ignore a veritable mountain of scriptural evidence that stands contrary to their current beliefs. I have seen some quote Saint Paul ad nauseam, without ever once mentioning the words of Christ! Look at their attitude toward you - was it charitable at all, or even “Christian”? Again, I see the response from such people is simply “Read XXXX”, with no further explanation. First, they assume that you do not read the bible. Secondly, they also assume that the bible is self-interpreting, as if it were a living being. Thus, something is simply wrong with you if you do not extract the same meaning from a given verse as they do. They need prayer.

Who is hosting, or moderating this meeting?
 
wfr said:
Hi Gang,
I have a problem that I would like your help with. This morning, for the first time, I attended an ecumenical Bible study hosted at our parish.
Click to expand...
Shouldn’t there be a priest or well-educated deacon in attendance, to moderate the discussion? Otherwise, Catholics not well-versed in their faith could get stolen from the flock right in their own parish church. 😦
 
jmcrae said:
Shouldn’t there be a priest or well-educated deacon in attendance, to moderate the discussion? Otherwise, Catholics not well-versed in their faith could get stolen from the flock right in their own parish church. 😦
Click to expand...
That’s my question too. Who is the moderator/leader here and what was his (name removed by moderator)ut on this matter.

Since this is a Bible study one could rightly say that, for the benefit of all, the question of Simon the magician’s salvation can be left open. In other words, one might wish to consider sticking to the Bible in this setting unless the ECF reference is germaine to properly interpreting a specific passage - Then such a reference to an ECF demonstrates an early understanding of a given passage.
However this is something that the group leader needs to determine.

I do think that the rolling eyes and smirking is highly unchristian and needs to be discouraged by all the members.

Peace
James
 
What are the rest of the members like? Did they notice what was going on? Otherwise, did you find the discussion or fellowship interesting?
 
But you didn’t say Simon wasn’t saved. You only mentioned history. :eek:

I have been in many Bible studies outside the Church and have encountered no such issues, even when I drop Early Church Father facts or sometimes Apocryphal info for “fun”.

My guess is that these two guys are deliberately coming to the Bible study at the Catholic Church specifically to bash the Catholic theology. They have a bone to pick and are looking for a fight.

They sound like children. Treat them as such; and by that I mean, charitably, calmly keep focus. You did fine. They were trying to draw you into a theological discussion that you hadn’t started. Don’t let yourself fall for that again.

For the next meeting, bring up the encounter first thing. Stating you’re new to the group and would like to clarify expectations. Pray to the Holy Spirit to guide you in your words. I hope you are all praying together for unity and understanding BEFORE the Bible Study. If not, make sure you start doing so.

Blessings and Peace
Carol
 
jmcrae said:
Shouldn’t there be a priest or well-educated deacon in attendance, to moderate the discussion? Otherwise, Catholics not well-versed in their faith could get stolen from the flock right in their own parish church. 😦
Click to expand...
I was all set to advise OP not to go elsewhere for bible study - but the danger is right at home! Without a Priest, Deacon, or PhD-level Catholic theologian as moderator, this is a train wreck in the making.
 
JRKH said:
That’s my question too. Who is the moderator/leader here and what was his (name removed by moderator)ut on this matter.

Since this is a Bible study one could rightly say that, for the benefit of all, the question of Simon the magician’s salvation can be left open. In other words, one might wish to consider sticking to the Bible in this setting unless the ECF reference is germaine to properly interpreting a specific passage - Then such a reference to an ECF demonstrates an early understanding of a given passage.
However this is something that the group leader needs to determine.

I do think that the rolling eyes and smirking is highly unchristian and needs to be discouraged by all the members.

Peace
James
Click to expand...
OP should print out a banner that simply says “Romans 11:22” on it. However, their egos have probably already misinterpreted that, as well. Hey, James, what say we attend the next one?
 
Hi all

Thanks for all the great advice. I am a former Baptist minister so I know the mind set well. I also know my faith and have no problem defending it. My first thought was to catch these guys after the study and take them down a notch or two; there is a time when I would have done it and enjoied it. But I am older now and hopefully a little wiser now and I understand that I would win the fight but lose the war.

The study is led by a Protestant gentalman who my be a preacher but I am not sure. I did not say if Simon was saved or not, I simply made a comment.

I too am concerned that Catholics may have their faith weakened by such a study, especially because it is hosted by my parish. I guess I am going to have to approach this thing as an evangelism opportunity.

PAX CHRISTY
Bill
 
wfr said:
Hi all

Thanks for all the great advice. I am a former Baptist minister so I know the mind set well. I also know my faith and have no problem defending it. My first thought was to catch these guys after the study and take them down a notch or two; there is a time when I would have done it and enjoied it. But I am older now and hopefully a little wiser now and I understand that I would win the fight but lose the war.

The study is led by a Protestant gentalman who my be a preacher but I am not sure. I did not say if Simon was saved or not, I simply made a comment.

I too am concerned that Catholics may have their faith weakened by such a study, especially because it is hosted by my parish. I guess I am going to have to approach this thing as an evangelism opportunity.

PAX CHRISTY
Bill
Click to expand...
The true frustration comes after your eyes have been opened and you can see the fallacies in the bible-alone arguments. So many of the converts on Marcus Grodi’s Coming Home Network simply never saw, or never paid attention to those verses which were the most difficult from a SS viewpoint. Do you have a copy of the Essential Catholic Survival Guide? It is not scholarly, but is very practical in such situations.

The major point is, how on earth could non-Catholic sources have open access to a parish? Ecumenism has its rightful place, but it demands structure and discipline, else it will devolve into simple bickering amongst brothers. This, sadly, appears to need the attention of the parish priest.
 
Why did he quote James 5:15 when that seems very clearly to be about the Last Rites/Anointing of the Sick? Seems to disprove his point completely…
 
Hi,

James 5:15 is about last rites, that is why I asked how it related to our discussion of Simon. Because I never got an answer I can only assume that this guy misunderstands how James uses the word “saved” in the context of this text.

I e-mailed our parish DRE and offered to do a Bible study that is true to the Church’s teachings. I’ll let you all know what she says.

I think that I will continue to attend this ecumenical study to provide some ballance.

PAX CHRISTI
Bill
 
wfr said:
Hi,

James 5:15 is about last rites, that is why I asked how it related to our discussion of Simon. Because I never got an answer I can only assume that this guy misunderstands how James uses the word “saved” in the context of this text.

I e-mailed our parish DRE and offered to do a Bible study that is true to the Church’s teachings. I’ll let you all know what she says.

I think that I will continue to attend this ecumenical study to provide some ballance.

PAX CHRISTI
Bill
Click to expand...
Your DRE will do whatever the pastor allows her to do. You really need to take this up with him.

Meanwhile, yes - as a stop-gap it would be a good idea for you to keep going to this Bible study, to, as you say, provide balance. 🙂

My next question, though, is, if it is being led by a Protestant pastor, why is it not being held in his building? 🤷
 
Hi,

My DRE is pretty good about taking ideas to father. I want to be senitive to the chain of command so to speak.

I do not know that the leader of this study is a pastor. He mentioned that he had gone to seminary, but I don’t know if he is pastoring a church.

PAX CHRISTI
Bill
 
wfr said:
So, here’s my dilemma. The whole point, as I understand it, of an ecumenical Bible study is to be able to discuss differing opinions in a way that respects our differences. If these guys get so bent out of shape over such trivial things, I wonder what is going to happen when a real issue of importance comes up.
Click to expand...
You’ll find out soon enough.

I’d dump the ecumenical bible study. It’s hard enough just to weed out the cafeteria Catholics and have a good study…
 
mark_a said:
I’d dump the ecumenical bible study. It’s hard enough just to weed out the cafeteria Catholics and have a good study…
Click to expand...
Ah, it might still be salvageable. Those two need to be set straight - particularly about the overall purpose of the classes. SS clears the way for ego-driven interpretation, which can lead to arrogance. Luther was greatly concerned that his fellow reformers quickly began falling away, following their own preferences. He was apparently not prepared for that which would enter through the door that he opened.
 
Protestants at a Catholic Church for bible study? Sounds like loads of fun.

They obviously know Scripture and know their faith and have come to a Catholic Church for a reason. From their behavior it doesn’t sound like they came out of charity and a genuine desire to learn and grow. it sounds more like they want to engage in dirty apologetics.

That’s all the more reason to bake cookies for them, sit right next to them, be friendly, even invite them out for breakfast. It’s all the more more reason to defend the Catholic faith without fear and intimidation.

Let them smirk and wink and nod. Catholic truth and the real presence of Christ is on your side. Also consider how full of pride they are. That is a very dangerous place for them to be, especially in such close proximity to the tabernacle.

-Tim-
 
jmcrae said:
Shouldn’t there be a priest or well-educated deacon in attendance, to moderate the discussion? Otherwise, Catholics not well-versed in their faith could get stolen from the flock right in their own parish church. 😦
Click to expand...
That is so true and I wonder why any Catholic parish is having a ecumenical bible study anyway
 
thequeen said:
That is so true and I wonder why any Catholic parish is having a ecumenical bible study anyway
Click to expand...
It does seem odd. I just read where it was led by a Protestant Pastor???

Does the senior pastor of the parish know this is going on?

-Tim-
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top