Help with debating a Mormon

[RebeccaJ]

Awesome! Well I don’t know a whole lot of RM’s who’ve left for the true faith, but there really isn’t a whole lot of RM’s where I live so …go figure I guess.
Wow…this is awesome to find others who’ve felt and traveled a similar path, its just nice not to feel alone in that aspect.

Here in UT there are more than a few. In my RCIA class alone, two RMs who were baptized the same Easter as I was. I was raised LDS (BIC). Never did the mission thing, or the temple. I left for atheism and converted to Catholicism from there.

 

[placido]

Actually, I’m glad to know the bishop of Rome is not in charge. I had thought that all along. Thanks for agreeing.

That leaves you free to follow the Dear President in the Salt Lake City. He is in charge.

placido

 

[twopekinguys]

Sorry to have been misunderstood. Sorry JS offended you. He shouldn’t have said such a thing. Shame on him.

I really do appreciate your having insisted so that it would lead me to Google for more information. Those articles are really interesting. They do involve apostolic succession, but not in the way it has been explained to me by Catholics.

You’re just too funny sometimes.

All I can say, is learning is a good thing. Honest dialog is a good thing.

I want to share two things I learned first hand while bartending.

1. The less I know, the less I can testify to in court. (Has no bearing here, but it does when you just got done clearing a brawl)
2. There are 3 sides to every story. Yours, mine, and the truth. 2 people can witness the same event, and have conflicting stories. The truth usually lies somewhere in between.

We have heard your side, you have heard ours. Now it is time to search these positions, and find the truth. We must also be willing to realize that the truth may not be what we want to hear sometimes.

Me personally, I have done much research of different faiths, even belonged to a few different ones. For me, the truth lies within the church that Jesus himself founded, which is the RCC.

I hope and pray you are open to find the truth. It really will set you free. I know it did for me.

 

[StLawrenceFan]

We CAN, we Mormons and everybody else, agree that it actually did cease eventually–at least the 'thus saith the Lord" …

**Just STOP. Please, Diana. **

mormons can’t agree on anything except what your fake ‘Joe Smith’ the soothsayer says.

**His words mean NOTHING in the scope of things. ** Mick Jagger’s lyrics mean so much more.

There is NOTHING real about Joe’s Myth or any of Bring’em Young’s statements.
mormons aren’t “Christian”. You can wake to reality or keep covered in a cold blanket of phoneyness. It’s up to you. Pretty darn basic.

Hey, by the way, the “tooth fairy” is more believable than Joe’s Myth.

Look into it.

Get real.

Please.

Thanks.

 

[Arandur]

I don’t quite understand, Parker, why you and other Mormons have a problem with the office of the Bishop of Rome. It is a lesser office than what you claim for the Prophet/President of your church.

Is it the manner of succession? But your description of the proper manner of succession comes from believing Brigham Young. It is assuming your own position–circular reasoning. Compare it historically with the early Church and you see a different story. Compare it even with other Smithian sects (Strangite, RLDS/CoC, Restorationist) and you find another even related to your own beliefs. IIRC, 2 of those groups at least believe the Presidency or office of Prophet needed to be transmitted to Smith’s descendants. That’s an even more strict process than the succession of the Bishop of Rome.

By the way, do you know how the next pope is chosen? It is by election. IIRC, election is the method by which your Quorum elevates your next President. So what’s the problem with the Catholic process?

On revelation, I’m still waiting to here whether LDS believe that something essential to salvation is missing and is yet to be revealed.

If it is not, what is left to be revealed? Matters of guidance to the Church? But we’re in agreement that the Catholic Church still recognizes that is ongoing; the Spirit at all times guides the Church at all levels. Among the ordained apostolic offices, the Spirit even guides to the pronouncement of sacred writing in conciliar documents and encyclicals, which exist alongside Scripture as binding upon the faithful. These are formal explanations of existing revelation and practical applications of them to current situations. The Spirit guides the Church inerrantly in matters of faith and morals.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

The Mormon President isn’t chosen by election (at least not normally). He is the senior apostle. So, once the President dies, it’s already known who the next one will be. If President Monson died tomorrow (God forbid), from what I’m aware of, the next President would be Boyd Packer.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Sorry Robert, your posts don’t make sense to me. I stand by what I have said.

I see. Try reading this short section of the Catechism here.IN BRIEF

68 By love, God has revealed himself and given himself to man. He has thus provided the definitive, superabundant answer to the questions that man asks himself about the meaning and purpose of his life.

69 God has revealed himself to man by gradually communicating his own mystery in deeds and in words.

70 Beyond the witness to himself that God gives in created things, he manifested himself to our first parents, spoke to them and, after the fall, promised them salvation (cf. Gen 3:15) and offered them his covenant.

71 God made an everlasting covenant with Noah and with all living beings (cf. Gen 9:16). It will remain in force as long as the world lasts.

72 God chose Abraham and made a covenant with him and his descendants. By the covenant God formed his people and revealed his law to them through Moses. Through the prophets, he prepared them to accept the salvation destined for all humanity.

73 God has revealed himself fully by sending his own Son, in whom he has established his covenant for ever. The Son is his Father’s definitive Word; so there will be no further Revelation after him.

Really, Z, consider the possibility that you may need to come at this from a different angle.

Peace,
Robert

 

[placido]

Agreed that Linus as the bishop of Rome did not say he was “in charge” at all. I think people later said the bishop of Rome was “in charge.” Why should I care to look any of that up? I just don’t care. It isn’t worth my time, at all.

JS had scribes who had been asked to keep minutes of what he said. That does not mean they kept perfect minutes. It’s no big deal to me whether he was quoted correctly or not on that statement. I just don’t care.

Nor do I care about his plural marriages. Of course I realize that plural marriage was one of the issues that turned William Law against him who ended up starting the Nauvoo Expositor that published against him to rile up the community.

What I do care about is the impact what Joseph Smith did has had on my life, and it is large. I enjoy the Book of Mormon as a book to read and learn from. I enjoy the Lectures on Faith. I enjoy the King Follett Discourse. I enjoy the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price. I like reading them. I learn from them. Not everyone will–many won’t, but I do. To each their own.

Hey, ladies and gentlemen, Parker doesn’t care about the truth. For him religion is aboutenjoying, enjoying and enjoying …

placido

 

[placido]

My statement about the bishop of Rome saying he was in charge was not a direct quote, of course. (He wouldn’t have spoken English at the time the office became the "head of the earthly church.) Maybe no bishop of Rome ever said words to that effect. Maybe you have a church led by bishops all over the world, with equal authority. I think that would be a good idea.

ParkerD thinks “that would be a good idea” but not good enough for the LDS. They will rather keep their Presidency, the two consellors and the 12 false apostles.

placido

 

[why_me]

Why don’t you just admit you made it up? Parker, you have a bad habit of deception - inventing history, misquoting scripture, misrepresenting the claims of the Book of Mormon - it is typical of a desperate Mormon lying for the Lord. You all seem to do it.

It shows that your religion hasn’t an honest leg to stand on.

Why should Parker admit that it is all made up? I don’t see any evidence that the lds church is all made up. If you have substantial proof, please call the major newspapers and report the potential story. But…you can’t. On your part Paul, it is all wishful thinking. Sure, you would glow at the prospect that the lds church is proven to be all made up. And the pain that such information would have on the believers would probably be of no concern for you. You see, Paul, so far no one has proven the lds made up or untrue. And the people who do remain LDS seem to be good people who live god’s law. Mormons can be my neighbor anytime. I would welcome them.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

Why should Parker admit that it is all made up? I don’t see any evidence that the lds church is all made up. If you have substantial proof, please call the major newspapers and report the potential story. But…you can’t. On your part Paul, it is all wishful thinking. Sure, you would glow at the prospect that the lds church is proven to be all made up. And the pain that such information would have on the believers would probably be of no concern for you. You see, Paul, so far no one has proven the lds made up or untrue. And the people who do remain LDS seem to be good people who live god’s law. Mormons can be my neighbor anytime. I would welcome them.

LOL Paul didn’t say that Parker should admit that Mormonism is all made up.

 

[why_me]

I’m an RM (Taiwan Taipei Mission 1977-1979). Statistics from the LDS Church show that nearly 50% of RMs leave the church within 2 years after returning from their missions. Serving a mission is meant primarily to strangthen the young LDS men in their faith, but now seems to be having the opposite effect.

Please provide a reference for this, if you can. Now I do believe that some go inactive. It is tough serving a mission if not handled in the right way. But 50 percent seems a stretch for leaving the church. However, it would be interesting to see just how many catholics leave the faith every year. Do you have any figures for this. In latin america, almost every born again christian penecostal was a catholic. And the born again people are quite huge in population. Any comments…?

 

[why_me]

Good list. It should also be noted that Strang discovered his own set of ancient plates, produced his own “scriptures” from them, and had his own set of 11 witnesses signing affidavits that they saw and handled the plates - exactly like Joseph Smith. But Mormons don’t think Strang’s plates were authentic; they do think Joseph Smith’s plates were authentic. To them, Strang lied, but Joseph was a true prophet. The Josephite and Strangite sets of witnesses cancel each other out. The testimony of the Book of Mormon’s witnesses is thus worthless.

NS

Since Strang produced his plates after JS and since Strang was a mormon and wanted to become leader of the lds church after Joseph died and since many of his witnesses recanted…well…Strang lied.

 

[why_me]

You guys, many of you have gotten unnecessarily hostile or harsh. You can call me on it, too, if I do it, but I try to keep my harsh words or criticisms to ideas/beliefs or sometimes to general groups. There’s no need to be harsh with people; I’d rather beat up on ideas . Call them out on something you think they may be being dishonest or hypocritical about, but that can all be done in an acceptable tone.

Tough love does not mean harsh love. I know it can be a difficult line to walk, but I think that line has been crossed several times on this forum. We should try not to use the truth as a sledgehammer.

I haven’t named names. I can get worked up over things too. Let’s all just try to be more charitable.

I have called them on it also. The way they treat mormons who attempt to defend or explain their faith is far from christian charity. But I am afraid your comments will go in one ear and out the other. If the catholic church creates such hostility in its people, I can safely say that the catholic church would be wrong and corrupt. But fortunately, there are only a handful of bitter exmormons or nevermo catholics on these mormon threads who treat mormons in a rude manner. For the most part, catholics are open minded and let people believe what they want to believe as long as they have faith and do good works. And that says much about the catholic church.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

Please provide a reference for this, if you can. Now I do believe that some go inactive. It is tough serving a mission if not handled in the right way. But 50 percent seems a stretch for leaving the church. However, it would be interesting to see just how many catholics leave the faith every year. Do you have any figures for this. In latin america, almost every born again christian penecostal was a catholic. And the born again people are quite huge in population. Any comments…?

I love how you always try to turn the topic to Catholicism. Do you have statistics to back up your own claims? Now, I would definitely imagine that many if not most converts to Pentecostalism in Latin America would be former Catholics, since the Catholic population is so large there! It’s like saying “In India, most of the converts to Catholicism are former Hindus”. :whacky:

 

[why_me]

True, the Strang story is sorted and eerily similar to that of J.Smith. I was a farid I was going to run out of room with post, but yes what about Strangs plates, his witnesses?

Since Strang copied Smith, why would his story be different. But his followers were small and now they have disappeared. So much for Strang and where the comparison ends.

 

[why_me]

I love how you always try to turn the topic to Catholicism. Do you have statistics to back up your own claims? Now, I would definitely imagine that many if not most converts to Pentecostalism in Latin America would be former Catholics, since the Catholic population is so large there! It’s like saying “In India, most of the converts to Catholicism are former Hindus”. :whacky:

Well, certain people take glee if they post how mormons are leaving mormonism. I have read it many times from exmembers who are disgruntled with the lds faith. And yet, I see no collapse of the lds faith. I have read where hundreds of thousands are leaving the lds faith from exmo sites but…wishful thinking.

People leave their faith for many reasons. It becomes a baseball card trade these days. And all faiths experience it. No big deal really.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

Well, certain people take glee if they post how mormons are leaving mormonism. I have read it many times from exmembers who are disgruntled with the lds faith. And yet, I see no collapse of the lds faith. I have read where hundreds of thousands are leaving the lds faith from exmo sites but…wishful thinking.

People leave their faith for many reasons. It becomes a baseball card trade these days. And all faiths experience it. No big deal really.

Yes, true. My point was that your bringing up converts to Pentecostalism in Latin America was irrelevant, yet its premise made sense, since pretty much all Latin American countries are 70%+ Catholic, so converts to other religions would obviously be mostly Catholic.

 

[zerinus]

I see. Try reading this short section of the Catechism here.IN BRIEF

68 By love, God has revealed himself and given himself to man. He has thus provided the definitive, superabundant answer to the questions that man asks himself about the meaning and purpose of his life.

69 God has revealed himself to man by gradually communicating his own mystery in deeds and in words.

70 Beyond the witness to himself that God gives in created things, he manifested himself to our first parents, spoke to them and, after the fall, promised them salvation (cf. Gen 3:15) and offered them his covenant.

71 God made an everlasting covenant with Noah and with all living beings (cf. Gen 9:16). It will remain in force as long as the world lasts.

72 God chose Abraham and made a covenant with him and his descendants. By the covenant God formed his people and revealed his law to them through Moses. Through the prophets, he prepared them to accept the salvation destined for all humanity.

73 God has revealed himself fully by sending his own Son, in whom he has established his covenant for ever. The Son is his Father’s definitive Word; so there will be no further Revelation after him.

Thank you, I will. In the mean time, you might like to consider reading this Articles of Faith of the LDS Church:

1. *]We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
   *]We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
   *]We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
   *]We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
   *]We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
   *]We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
   *]We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
   *]We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
   *]We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
   *]We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
   *]We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
   *]We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
   *]We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
   

   Really, Z, consider the possibility that you may need to come at this from a different angle.

   You might like to consider doing the same.

 

[ParkerD]

I don’t quite understand, Parker, why you and other Mormons have a problem with the office of the Bishop of Rome. It is a lesser office than what you claim for the Prophet/President of your church.

Is it the manner of succession? But your description of the proper manner of succession comes from believing Brigham Young. It is assuming your own position–circular reasoning. Compare it historically with the early Church and you see a different story. Compare it even with other Smithian sects (Strangite, RLDS/CoC, Restorationist) and you find another even related to your own beliefs. IIRC, 2 of those groups at least believe the Presidency or office of Prophet needed to be transmitted to Smith’s descendants. That’s an even more strict process than the succession of the Bishop of Rome.

By the way, do you know how the next pope is chosen? It is by election. IIRC, election is the method by which your Quorum elevates your next President. So what’s the problem with the Catholic process?

On revelation, I’m still waiting to here whether LDS believe that something essential to salvation is missing and is yet to be revealed.

If it is not, what is left to be revealed? Matters of guidance to the Church? But we’re in agreement that the Catholic Church still recognizes that is ongoing; the Spirit at all times guides the Church at all levels. Among the ordained apostolic offices, the Spirit even guides to the pronouncement of sacred writing in conciliar documents and encyclicals, which exist alongside Scripture as binding upon the faithful. These are formal explanations of existing revelation and practical applications of them to current situations. The Spirit guides the Church inerrantly in matters of faith and morals.

Arandur,
Those articles I recently cited showed quite a different process of the “apostolic succession” involving “keys given to Peter” in the early days of the church than has been presented to me by some Catholics on this website, and I think they were being sincere which means that they have a significant misunderstanding.

The CC can choose whatever process it wants to for the succession of the Papacy.

I assume your use of the term “salvation” in your question about “essential revelation” means “saved to be where God is, eternally”. (LDS often use that meaning also, or use the term “exaltation” and differentiate about the term “salvation”). For those seeking “exaltation”, there are things “yet to be revealed,” including scriptures that were revelations to prophets with some of the other tribes of Israel who were visited by Christ after His ascension, and revelations given to the brother of Jared. They will involve hidden knowledge that we do not now have, and they will involve gaining greater faith. They will be “essential” for those for whom they are revealed, the timing of which is in God’s hands.

As a reader and believer in the Bible, I would consider that Ezekiel 37:15-28 contains an essential revelation for all the house of Israel for a period of time in world history far after Ezekiel was alive.

Have a very good day.