help with gay friends

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The child who is in more need of this masculinization that doesn’nt get it becomes more feminine, especially if the mother’s nurturing reinforces it.

Following this line of reasoning then. . .you would support “they are born that way.”

You are de facto saying, “Some children innately need more of a masculine influence and some children don’t.” and in my family, you would then be saying the father didn’t give the older son enough of a masculine influence.

I still don’t buy this at all.

I actually like the “born that way” theory but in another way. Much research is showing that our sense of smell is highly related to our sexual behavior.

It may be difficult to accept, but we are animals and God made us that way.

It is known in the medical arena that many people who lose their sense of smell for whatever reason/accident totally lose their libido (I think up to 75%)

One theory floating is that homosexual men and/or women either have a deficiency in receptors that pick up pheromones or simply their brain doesn’t process it correctly to exhibit heterosexual behavior. I am not sure of the research that points to this but I think this is a more reasonable theory vs. the “Emotionally distant father” theory.

Either way, I would think they are born that way, not that it is some learned accidental behavior (or learned behavior would be extremely rare).

I mean, fathers nowadays get blamed for so much. . .I don’t think fingering them in homosexuality is appropriate. And neither should an “overnuturing” mother be fingered. I am sure parents don’t need any more guilt piled on them, and especially when it is unfounded.

 

[huckleberry]

Who has discredited them?

Common sense discredits them. The scientific literature discredits them. People who have tried out their “therapy” discredit them.

The American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, and the American Academy of Pediatrics all say that this talk of science curing “ex-gays” is all bunk.

THEIR SCIENCE IS BOGUS

1. The only study the ex-gay proponents use to back their argument was taken out of context.

Anti-gay activists can cite only one study (by Dr. Robert Spitzer) to support their contention that gays cans become straight. The problem is that the author of that study has come out and said that the ex-gay proponents misinterpreted his work.

1. The ex-gay proponents think being gay is a “pathology” and a “disorder” when all the leading medical associations say this simply isn’t the case.
2. All the ex-gay “poster children” have failed

• John Paulk, the current ex-gay leader who was featured on the cover of Newsweek, was subsequently caught in a gay bar in Washington, DC at 11PM on a weeknight. Paulk first lied about why he was there, then later admitted that this wasn’t his first visit to a gay bar.
• Wade Richards, the former ex-gay teen leader, last year came out and said that he was not “cured” of his homosexuality and that the ex-gay movement is a bunch of bunk.
• The two men who founded the ex-gay movement in the early 1970s subsequently quit the movement, and married each other.

1. Speaking of children, Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, the scientific leader of the ex-gay proponents, has reportedly treated children as young as 3 years of age. And this, we’re to believe, is science?

“Nicolosi’s patients, most controversially, can be as young as 3 years old. Like Exodus, he trumpets his success rates, but has done no long-term follow-up study. ‘I don’t have time,’ he says.”

1. This isn’t about science, it’s about anti-gay politics

The “ex-gays” are anti-gay political activists hiding behind the shroud of science. And while they have the right to push their own anti-gay political agenda, it would certainly be more honest of them to come out and admit what they’re really up to.

1. When you read Dr. Nicolosi’s quotes (the president of the lead “ex-gay” scientific organization), it’s clear that he is hardly an objective unbiased scientist.
   he said such things as:

“If there is an older brother, it’s a fear-hostile relationship with the older brother, I have never seen an exception to that. I have never seen a man with a homosexual problem speak with admiration and pride and love of his older brother.”

“The gay identify offers breaking out of this good little boy mode, and that’s why being gay is being bad, this idea of the sexual outlaw, there’s something exciting about that. They become bad boys. If you ever take a look at a gay bar, it’s wild, it’s outrageous, it’s like big boys being bad little boys.”

“We see exhibitionism in adulthood with gays.”

1. To illustrate just how wacky the “science” is that’s backing the ex-gay proponents, these are a few of the things that they say causes people to turn out gay:
   
   Masturbation
   Pornography
   Spousal abuse in the home
   Effects of the media/culture
   Parental adultery
   Moral relativism (the moronic list goes on)
2. And these are a few of the ways the ex-gay experts “cure” gay people and make them heterosexual:
   
   Men should play sports
   Men practice going fishing, women practice putting on make-up
   Men are taught to sit the right way, no crossed legs
   Men are taught not to stand with their hand on their hip
   Take away a man’s Calvin Klein clothes and Barbra Streisand records
   Men should avoid extreme sarcastic behavior
   
   Show a gay man photos of nude men while placing rotted hamburger meat under his nose - he will then associated repulsion with same-sex attraction
   (the moronic list goes on)

 

[revelations]

And this post has been officially hijacked.

OP, don’t be afraid to bring these things up. The light of Christ will shine in the darkness and good will prevail at sometime. I know it’s hard, i can only imagine what it’s like for you. Just by seeing the passions enflamed in this post…

Remember regardless of what any scientist says, you follow Jesus Christ. His teachings are that this behavior is disordered, and sinful. Stick to your guns, explain with charity. Whether people are born this way or not, God’s will will prevail. Who knows, perhaps you’ll even save a soul or two?

 

[huckleberry]

And this post has been officially hijacked.

OP, don’t be afraid to bring these things up. The light of Christ will shine in the darkness and good will prevail at sometime. I know it’s hard, i can only imagine what it’s like for you. Just by seeing the passions enflamed in this post…

Remember regardless of what any scientist says, you follow Jesus Christ. His teachings are that this behavior is disordered, and sinful. Stick to your guns, explain with charity. Whether people are born this way or not, God’s will will prevail. Who knows, perhaps you’ll even save a soul or two?

I guess you are new to the concept of the bible. Jesus never said anything about gays. And I will destroy anyone who tries to hurt my gay friends.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I guess you are new to the concept of the bible. Jesus never said anything about gays. And I will destroy anyone who tries to hurt my gay friends.

Good for you.

Jesus didn’t say: “Love one another-but only the straight people, and the ones that go to the right church and vote for the right people”

Your friends are lucky to have you and your support.

 

[NoxSineStellae]

One theory floating is that homosexual men and/or women either have a deficiency in receptors that pick up pheromones or simply their brain doesn’t process it correctly to exhibit heterosexual behavior. I am not sure of the research that points to this but I think this is a more reasonable theory vs. the “Emotionally distant father” theory.

This is interesting to me…I have one of the most sensitive noses I’ve ever encountered - people cannot believe what I can smell, and from how far away. It’s really quite annoying sometimes. I’m also attracted to both men and women. Maybe I pick up on both of their pheromones?

On the other hand, my husband was born completely lacking a sense of smell. It’s genetic, his father, grandfather, and greatgrandfather all had the same deal. He had a poor relationship with his father while growing up, has an incredibly high libido, and is very very heterosexual.

“Poor fathering results in homosexuality” seems along the same lines as “Distant mothers cause autism”. A lazy, antiquated theory. But that’s just me

 

[Fitswimmer]

I’ve really come to believe that all these theories about what “causes” homosexuality are still popular because people who are uncomfortable with the existence of homosexuality have to find something to blame it on. Parents want to know what to avoid so they won’t have gay kids. There are parents who will not feed their children SOY products because they think it can make their kids gay!!

 

[buffalo]

Following this line of reasoning then. . .you would support “they are born that way.”

You are de facto saying, “Some children innately need more of a masculine influence and some children don’t.” and in my family, you would then be saying the father didn’t give the older son enough of a masculine influence.

I still don’t buy this at all.

I actually like the “born that way” theory but in another way. Much research is showing that our sense of smell is highly related to our sexual behavior.

It may be difficult to accept, but we are animals and God made us that way.

It is known in the medical arena that many people who lose their sense of smell for whatever reason/accident totally lose their libido (I think up to 75%)

One theory floating is that homosexual men and/or women either have a deficiency in receptors that pick up pheromones or simply their brain doesn’t process it correctly to exhibit heterosexual behavior. I am not sure of the research that points to this but I think this is a more reasonable theory vs. the “Emotionally distant father” theory.

Either way, I would think they are born that way, not that it is some learned accidental behavior (or learned behavior would be extremely rare).

I mean, fathers nowadays get blamed for so much. . .I don’t think fingering them in homosexuality is appropriate. And neither should an “overnuturing” mother be fingered. I am sure parents don’t need any more guilt piled on them, and especially when it is unfounded.

Every human is born “that way”. Childhood development is the issue. A failure to develop.

There is absolutely no evidence of a gay gene. However, it will be interesting to see what epigenetics finds. Epigenetics tells us that contrary to what we believed lifestyle effects can be passed to children. So if your father and mother eat estrogen for dinner that can affect their kids. So in that way it may be possible to be born with the software sending wrong instructions to the DNA hardware. If it is determined that it is faulty software instructions then it is a medical condition and presumably treatable.

If you study the research you will have to draw the same conclusion about early childhood.

 

[buffalo]

I guess you are new to the concept of the bible. Jesus never said anything about gays. And I will destroy anyone who tries to hurt my gay friends.

Anything recorded. The Bible is incomplete about Jesus. And if society clearly understood that homosexual activity is clearly wrong, there would be no need. People of the time already knew natural law.

Sounds like hate speech to me.

 

[buffalo]

I’ve really come to believe that all these theories about what “causes” homosexuality are still popular because people who are uncomfortable with the existence of homosexuality have to find something to blame it on. Parents want to know what to avoid so they won’t have gay kids. There are parents who will not feed their children SOY products because they think it can make their kids gay!!

Having a wife who suffered through adenomyosis, endometriosis, breast cancer I have made it my business to see what the research was showing and guess what - environmental estrogens and contraceptives mimick the natural estrogen and the estrogen receptors uptake these false estrogens and has bad effects on the body. WHO has put the pill on the carcinogen list. I wonder why.

New research shows that estrogen has turned up in rivers and streams - from guess where? See the effects on the fish.

Now all of this can’t be good for humans, and if epigenetics shows it can be passed, will we change our behavior?

I

 

[buffalo]

Good for you.

Jesus didn’t say: “Love one another-but only the straight people, and the ones that go to the right church and vote for the right people”

Your friends are lucky to have you and your support.

I haven’t seen anyone say hate the sinner. I have only seen love the sinner and hate the sin.

Here is a charity question - if it is found that SSA could be change should science present the option to you or not?

 

[Fitswimmer]

I haven’t seen anyone say hate the sinner. I have only seen love the sinner and hate the sin.

Here is a charity question - if it is found that SSA could be change should science present the option to you or not?

I’ve actually answered this question before-I’m nearly 50 so change at this point would seem sort of silly, but if I were younger I might have thought about it. It’s no picnic growing up homosexual, so if I could have changed my orientation before puberty I’m sure I’d have jumped at it.

 

[Scanner]

1. And these are a few of the ways the ex-gay experts “cure” gay people and make them heterosexual:

Men should avoid extreme sarcastic behavior

Dowwwwlllll!!!

This is interesting to me…I have one of the most sensitive noses I’ve ever encountered - people cannot believe what I can smell, and from how far away. It’s really quite annoying sometimes. I’m also attracted to both men and women. Maybe I pick up on both of their pheromones?

NoxSine,

I don’t much about human pheremone science but apparently, a pheremone is not something with a detectable smell; it’s something indetectable, at least consciously. We are being regulated by the chemicals but not at the conscious level.

The science of smell is interesting though and part physiological and part psychological.

Behaviorly, women put on perfumes that sometimes smell like food for a reason for males (vanilla, raspberry, etc).

I keep waiting for my wife to put on “Ode de’ Bacon.”

I think the point is the Vatican can make some moral objections to homosexuality, and you can accept them or debate them, but you guys are on shaky science from Narth when you start venturing down the “Emotionally Distant Father” theory.

The “smell theories” with sexual behavior are also that - pure theories and I am willing to admit that. I am more inclined to believe that God made them that way, and gave them that cross to bear and we should respect that cross they have to bear as being quite heavy.

 

[buffalo]

Dowwwwlllll!!!

NoxSine,

I don’t much about human pheremone science but apparently, a pheremone is not something with a detectable smell; it’s something indetectable, at least consciously. We are being regulated by the chemicals but not at the conscious level.

The science of smell is interesting though and part physiological and part psychological.

Behaviorly, women put on perfumes that sometimes smell like food for a reason for males (vanilla, raspberry, etc).

I keep waiting for my wife to put on “Ode de’ Bacon.”

I think the point is the Vatican can make some moral objections to homosexuality, and you can accept them or debate them, but you guys are on shaky science from Narth when you start venturing down the “Emotionally Distant Father” theory.

The “smell theories” with sexual behavior are also that - pure theories and I am willing to admit that. I am more inclined to believe that God made them that way, and gave them that cross to bear and we should respect that cross they have to bear as being quite heavy.

If God intended this before the fall we would see three sexes. Male and female He created them. Of this there is no doubt. The bottom line is homosexuality was and is not part of God’s plan for us. Sin and corruption are the cause. One cannot God argue God made us that way. It makes no sense and is an easy way out so we don’t have to answer the harder questions. that is our own human influence. We are cumulatively responsible and we need to help.

 

[Scanner]

Every human is born “that way”. Childhood development is the issue. A failure to develop.

There is absolutely no evidence of a gay gene.

Conceded.

And you must concede there is no evidence for faulty childhood development as the cause either.

That’s the thing about theories. . .I saw a good TV show about theories.

A cat goes into a pipe. . .a mouse goes in the other end. You hear a “Meow”, a “Squeak” and then a “Crunch” and the cat exits the other end.

You are entitled to theorize on what happened just as much as I am. You may say, “I think the cat ate the mouse.” I may say, “I think the mouse defended himself, he’s still in there, and the cat exited the other end.”

We search for evidence on who is right and who is wrong.

(or religious people pray to God for divine revelation)

However, it will be interesting to see what epigenetics finds. Epigenetics tells us that contrary to what we believed lifestyle effects can be passed to children. So if your father and mother eat estrogen for dinner that can affect their kids.

If estrogen has a mutative effect on the gamete cells of the host, I’d say that’s entirely possible to pass on a genetic defect but this is another “cat entering the pipe” speculation.

So in that way it may be possible to be born with the software sending wrong instructions to the DNA hardware. If it is determined that it is faulty software instructions then it is a medical condition and presumably treatable.

If the DNA hardware is faulty. . .you can’t really ever treat it genetically because every cell in your body is encoded the same way. You may be able to alter expression through chemicals. . .but here’s the thing.

It’s easy to fall into the trap of “Estrogen = feminine” and “Testosterone = masculine.”

(I think that’s what you are assuming)

It’s just not that simple. Testosterone gives females libido and males have varying normal levels of estrogen.

So we don’t know much about the balance of these hormones and how they regulate human sexuality along with pheremones, visual clues, and yes, human sexuality is learned to a certain extent too. . .it’s not entirely instinctual.

If you study the research you will have to draw the same conclusion about early childhood.

I doubt it.

I don’t buy it although I do think that estrogen in foods has had an effect on females with earlier sexual development.

 

[Scanner]

If God intended this before the fall we would see three sexes. Male and female He created them. Of this there is no doubt.

I have no doubt he created male and female (we’ll for the sake of discussion omit hermophrodites from this discussion) but I think you communicating God’s intent to us is specious at best.

You have no idea of God’s intentions and neither do I.

The bottom line is homosexuality was and is not part of God’s plan for us. Sin and corruption are the cause.

I am actually not argueing the Vatican’s position on “Natural Law” on this. If the Vatican declares it a sin. . .that is their purview to do that.

I am only challenging the “Emotionally Distant Father” and “Overly Nuturing Mother” theory.

One cannot God argue God made us that way. It makes no sense and is an easy way out so we don’t have to answer the harder questions. that is our own human influence. We are cumulatively responsible and we need to help.

While I am not objecting to “helping” homosexuals, I want to be careful about the kind of “psychological” help and diagnoses we extend them (deviance).

I am not sure why one cannot argue God made them oriented towards homosexuality.

What if I was born with Tourrettes syndrome and had a penchant for losing my temper and cursing? I would be inclined to do that, and even though it was a sin, that would be my cross to bear (as my 8 year old neighborhood boy down the street has).

I am not sure why you don’t want to respect these people do have a difficult cross to bear in life, for whatever reason, whether God is “hands-on” or “hands-off” in this world we live in.

 

[buffalo]

I have no doubt he created male and female (we’ll for the sake of discussion omit hermophrodites from this discussion) but I think you communicating God’s intent to us is specious at best.

You have no idea of God’s intentions and neither do I.

I am actually not argueing the Vatican’s position on “Natural Law” on this. If the Vatican declares it a sin. . .that is their purview to do that.

I am only challenging the “Emotionally Distant Father” and “Overly Nuturing Mother” theory.

While I am not objecting to “helping” homosexuals, I want to be careful about the kind of “psychological” help and diagnoses we extend them (deviance).

I am not sure why one cannot argue God made them oriented towards homosexuality.

What if I was born with Tourrettes syndrome and had a penchant for losing my temper and cursing? I would be inclined to do that, and even though it was a sin, that would be my cross to bear (as my 8 year old neighborhood boy down the street has).

I am not sure why you don’t want to respect these people do have a difficult cross to bear in life, for whatever reason, whether God is “hands-on” or “hands-off” in this world we live in.

Perhaps we could back up then a little. What disease, corruption, deviancy, etc… would we have if we were still in Eden?

 

[huckleberry]

And this post has been officially hijacked.

OP, don’t be afraid to bring these things up. The light of Christ will shine in the darkness and good will prevail at sometime. I know it’s hard, i can only imagine what it’s like for you. Just by seeing the passions enflamed in this post…

Remember regardless of what any scientist says, you follow Jesus Christ. His teachings are that this behavior is disordered, and sinful. Stick to your guns, explain with charity. Whether people are born this way or not, God’s will will prevail. Who knows, perhaps you’ll even save a soul or two?

Maybe you are new to this whole “Christianity” thing, but Jesus never said squat about homosexuality. And just maybe passions are “inflamed” because some of these people are advocating un-Jesus-like laws. Jesus didn’t come to condemn, yet governmental force is condemning. Jesus said to love thy neighbors, yet restricting your neighbors liberty is not love.

 

[buffalo]

Maybe you are new to this whole “Christianity” thing, but Jesus never said squat about homosexuality. And just maybe passions are “inflamed” because some of these people are advocating un-Jesus-like laws. Jesus didn’t come to condemn, yet governmental force is condemning. Jesus said to love thy neighbors, yet restricting your neighbors liberty is not love.

Maybe you are new. We do not have a record of Jesus saying it. That doesn’t mean He did not address it. He may have not decided to elaborate on the existing Jewish prevailing convictions. It is addressed by His Apostle’s:

Rom 1;27 - called unnatural, shameful, and a perversity
1Cor 6:9 - active homosexuals won’t inherit kingdom of God
1Tim 1:9-10 - those who engage in such acts called sinners

Also, Catholics understand fraternal correction. You can learn about it here.

It is important to see what Jesus was saying here;

3Some Pharisees came to him, and to test him they asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause?” 4He answered, “Have you not read that the one who made them at the beginning made them male and female,' 5and said, For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

Now, where in the Bible is there any positive verses on homosexual acts.

 

[huckleberry]

Maybe you are new. We do not have a record of Jesus saying it. That doesn’t mean He did not address it. He may have not decided to elaborate on the existing Jewish prevailing convictions. It is addressed by His Apostle’s:

Rom 1;27 - called unnatural, shameful, and a perversity
1Cor 6:9 - active homosexuals won’t inherit kingdom of God
1Tim 1:9-10 - those who engage in such acts called sinners

Also, Catholics understand fraternal correction. You can learn about it here.

It is important to see what Jesus was saying here;

3Some Pharisees came to him, and to test him they asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause?” 4He answered, “Have you not read that the one who made them at the beginning made them male and female,' 5and said, For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

Now, where in the Bible is there any positive verses on homosexual acts.

revelations said: “His teachings are that this behavior is disordered, and sinful.”

I merely pointed out that this is 100% untrue. Jesus never taught such a thing.
You mention romans 1:27: Paul claims that the natural use of women is for the sexual pleasure of men.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Paul claims that not only will gays not “inherit” the kingdom, but also the “effeminate” and thieves. Paul claims that there is something so wrong with being effeminate that ultimate punishment will be meted out by a god. And don’t forget that the thieves on either side of Jesus on execution day were promised heaven, by Jesus himself!! Oh my gosh, is it possible that there are inconsistencies? Was the bible perhaps written by fallible men?

1Tim 1:9-10 actually refers to male prostitutes.

I do thank you for pointing me to the Catholic concept of “Fraternal Correction”. I will bring this up whenever I encounter a “Catholic” who wants to use the guns of government to persuade.

Now, where in the Bible is there any positive verses on homosexual acts.

Where in the bible is there any positive verses on persecuting people? Don’t you understand that you rhetoric against gay people is hateful and childish?