Help with my Jehova's Witness Brother

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There is one more thing, Jesus was tempted. Can God be tempted? No, but angels and humans could be tempted and rebel against God and did. The temptation of Jesus would make sense only if he was, not God, but a separate individual who had his own free will, one who could have been disloyal had he chosen to be, such as an angel or a human.
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Javier,

This particular statement from your brother only points out the lack of understanding of the nature of Christ.

Christ has two natures, human and divine. In His human nature, yes he can be tempted. In His divine nature–He cannot be tempted. That’s why the Lord answers Satan and said: “Thou shall not tempt the Lord your God.” Jesus was actually telling Satan not to tempt him.

Again, whenever there is an attempt by your brother to refute the Divinity of our Lord, always remember the two natures of Christ. From there he will be able to grasp the mystery of the incarnation. I once was told by a JW that why would Jesus die if he is God? The answer is very simple, it is the human nature of CHrist that died, not his Divine nature. I guess from here you will understand more the mystery.

Most JW’s, if not all, do not comprehend this that’s why they always attempt to quote Bible passages. The next time they quote Bible passages and make interpretations, simply ask them, “Who has the authority to interpret the Bible?” They always love to use the references written at the bottom of the Bible page and say that that’s the correct interpretation, which is not. They are only commentaries by theologians but they make it the “authoritative” interpretation.

God bless,

Pio
 
Thanks again for all the feebdack and advice. It is very frustrating that he is unable to see the truth. His latest email to me is too long to post but I wanted to share this portion;
I don’t believe the early Christians thought that Jesus was God. That didn’t start until about the 3rd or 4th century, when the Nicene Creed was developed. Instead of just going back to the early Church, we need to go back earlier, to the creation of Adam and Eve. I’ve asked you before about what you think God’s purpose was when He created them? Where would they be today if they hadn’t sinned? The answer to those questions helps us understand why the world is so ugly today and why so many people have to suffer, why so many children? Why, if He’s so powerful and loving, why doesn’t He stop it? Those are questions I didn’t understand before. Tell me what you think of those things. This is getting long. I’m going to add an article regarding the Nicene Creed and how the doctrine of the Trinity got started.
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I’m not sure where he got the article but you can see where it’s going by this quote from it.
“Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, ‘of one substance [ho·mo·ou’si·os] with the Father.’ . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination.”
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Does anybody know where he’s going regarding Adam and Eve? It seems like he’s waiting to jump on my answer.

God Bless
Javier
 
“I don’t believe the early Christians thought that Jesus was God. That didn’t start until about the 3rd or 4th century…”

Was Thomas an “early Christian”? John 20:28 “…my Lord and my God!”

Also check out the saying of Igantius of Antioch, an acquaintance of the apostles.
 
Does anybody know where he’s going regarding Adam and Eve? It seems like he’s waiting to jump on my answer.
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Javier,

They believe that they are JW’s. Very funny.😃

Let him look by the way at what God said in Genesis: “Let us make man in** our** image…”(emphasis added). It is God talking, it’s plural not singular. In other words, the (3) Persons were talking to each other (although it was still hidden in the OT and revealed by Jesus in the NT that God himself is not solitary). This could not have referred to God talking with angels because angels are pure spirits. Man is not a pure spirit, but is created in the “image and likeness of God” not in the image and likeness of angels. Also, angels are not creators.

Pio
 
Also, in Genesis, isn’t God’s “Word” referred to something like a person. Also, I think His “Spirit” hovered over the water. Seems to be indicated the Trinity.

I think he may be mentioning Adam and Eve so that he can talk about how the end of the world will be coming soon and things can be like they were in the Garden for you if you become a JW, but time is short. I’m not sure, that’s what I’m guessing.

I would continue to talk about the Trinity if you can and historic Christianity. The early Christians most definitely believed that Jesus was God as well as man. Here is a link to a Catholic Answers page on the issue:

catholic.com/library/Divinity_of_Chirst.asp

Peace in Christ,
Frank Rausch
 
My mother-in-law is a Witness and has been for years, so when I married I looked into it, found an excellent book called ‘Kingdom of the Cults’ by Walter Martin which discusses the issues in the same manner as the Jehovah’s Witnesses do, which I have found they will listen to. I just did a google search and found that Walter Martin has a web site (waltermartin.org) which will answer lots of your questions, especially concerning the divinity of Jesus. This book was invaluable to me, hope the site can help you.
 
Your Brother will come to his sences when the Holy Spirit acts. The more you “argue” the more firm he will become. You cant reason with him. those jw people are CULT, they indoctrinate and brain wash.

Pray for your brother regularly. If your brother is intellegent and hard working man, he will most certainly see the falicies of that “religion”.
 
Javier,

I’m a little late to this discussion, but hopefully this will be useful. In his book Orthodoxy G.K. Chesterton notes that through the incarnation God demonstrated courage to be among His virtues. Jesus in his humanity suffered not only agony, but doubt as well. Yet he perservered through the temptations and the agony of the cross. It was only by taking human form could we poor humans have any concept that God loves us and understands our suffering and shows us how to perservere through it.
 
My brother and his wife and family are also JW’s. My brother and his wife had once been active Catholics. In fact, when I was a kid, it was my brother who made the most effort to attend Sunday Mass regularly. He and his wife were even once CCD instructors.

One cannot tell just by outward appearance who actually embraces the Catholic faith and who does not. I was a Catholic seminarian for five years. Later, I wandered away to evangelical and mainline Protestant churches. I had studied the Catholic faith and I certainly understood what was believed and taught, yet even I left the fold for a time.

My brother now is a very active Jehovah’s Witness Elder. He and his wife are extremely zealous for their faith. His son spent a number of years at Bethel Headquarters in a sort of the JW version of seminary. He has never known any other faith. My brother believes that all Churches, particularly the Roman Catholic Church, are of Satan and will not listen to one word they have to say. His whole life, and all of his social and business relationships revolve about the Watchtower Society. I don’t bother wasting any of my time or my breath arguing with him. It is futile for me to do so. He has decided that he will not hear what I have to say.

My brother and his family, like all JW’s, must obey the Watchtower Society, which they believe is the only organization on Earth that is speaking directly on God’s behalf.

If any one reading this is considering becoming a JW, be forwarned. If you join the Watchtower Society, you had better be faithful to them in all things or else.:bowdown:
 
My uncle, the JW

My uncle is an active elder in the JW’s. Just as 4 Marks has indicated there is no talking to him about religion, he can be very dismissive of anything I say, but he is quick to exploit an opportunity to promote the Watchtower or attack the Catholic church, he’s pretty smooth though, he backs off when he senses that I am likely to be pissed off.

He went to Catholic school, we have a picture of him as an altar boy and he was devout once. He got involved because his wife did, and it had a “marvelous” effect on her. Actually as I remember her, she wasn’t all that likeable a person and if it had the effect they say it did, I could see why he was impressed. This was also the period when they had that “end-of-the-world” scare in the 1970’s, I remember buying the two publications Awake! and the Watchtower whenever some neighborhood JW’s came around and I read them from cover to cover, so I know he easy it would have been to get sucked in in those days.

I was Godfather to my uncle’s daughter (they were still Catholics), but after she was about four years old I never saw her again. Eventually the four children were all involved, but they were young then and had no choice.

After some years the wife was out (expelled apparently), then one after another each of the children got out, and each in turn was shunned by the community and by their father (my uncle) who now has no contact with his own children for years at a time. Even though the children are all adults and free of the Watchtower they have no relationship with us (his extended family) and we don’t know how to reach them.

The Watchtower has a lock on my uncle, my sister and I speak to him but we are not apostates so he merely has to be careful around us but not shun us (he lives several states away so visits are not often). I love the guy, once in a while I can see a glimmer of independent thinking there, but then the moment passes.

I pray for him every day, without fail.
 
I don’t necessarily agree that it is useless to argue. Yes, pray to the Holy Spirit (lots!!) to help them, but you can be the vessel through which the seeds of doubt in the Watchtower Org. is planted. I would always pray to the Holy Spirit to guide my words as I spoke to Jehovah’s Witnesses, I remember one time when I had two unknown Witnesses at my house discussing religion I got up to attend to my children and overheard one saying to the other “She knows her bible” which was far from the truth. Hopefully, through what I was saying they may have realised that the bible does support Catholic teaching.

One reference I did learn (from Walter Martin’s book) which the Jehovah’s Witnesses I spoke to were never able to refute was that in Philippians 2:10,11 it states 'That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, … And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father ’ The Kingdom Interlinear Translation says (p.18 last time I looked) that where the word ‘Kurios’ is used for ‘Lord’, and that the verse is quoting from the old testament, the name Jehovah has been used. Most bibles that show where the new testament is quoting from the old will show that this is a quote from Isaiah 45:23, which means that following their own criteria, Philippians should be translated as ‘every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Jehovah, to the glory of God the Father’.

Arguing alone won’t save them, but through prayers and some guided discussion, you’re bound to get them thinking…
plant the seed, let God do the rest.
 
Man I feel sorry for you. But more so for your brother. If he sticks with the Russlelites he’ll spend the rest of his life going door to door peddling thier books and pamplets.
Charles Taze Russle. Founder of the Watch Tower B.S. Ind.
His wife divorced him for not just having an affair with thier maid but also his secratry during the same time. In order for him to keep her hands off his fourtune he put all of in to his church.
Also sued by some of his own followers for selling “Miricle Wheat”. It didn’t do what he said it would. Lied under oath during the trials. He was just a con man.
Look for that book “30 years a Watch Tower Slave” Youll learn a lot about the history from a former member. Of cource your brother wont believe any of this stuff. You don’t belive the lies about the Catholic Church. Right? Anyway good luck. And don’t give up. This is the same situation that lead my back home to the Catholic church. Maybe God has a plan here.
 
Not to mention pyramids, that was really big with the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.
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 Russell claimed that besides Scripture, God had a witness in stone, the Great Pyramid of Giza.
http://members.cox.net/jellogator/finalproject/illustrations/Passag1_small.gif

In his day every Kingdom Hall had a diagram of the Great Pyramid on it’s wall with important information decifered from it by Russell himself.

http://www.preachtheword.co.uk/studies/cults/cjwrussell.jpg

Charles T. Russell’s grave in the Rosemount United Cemetery (about 5 miles north of Pittsburgh PA) has a large Pyramid on the site. He is buried behind it, not under it.
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 http://neirr.org/pyr_2.jpg
To his credit, when Judge Rutherford (another scumbag crackpot, not a real judge but a flim-flam artist and possibly a lawyer) took over the organization in a coup d’tats this teaching was abandoned, along with the Cross and Crown emblem you can see here. The whole episode resulted in a schism among the Bible Students (as they were known then) and the faction that remained true to C T R’s teachings became known as Russellites. Some still exist today under the Bible Students moniker but the congregations are independent, not controlled from a central authority (which is why they escaped from Judge Rutherford’s grasping reach).
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 Some years later "Judge" Rutherford directed his Bible Students to call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses! And so it goes... :hmmm:
 
 +T+
 
Rutherford was a draft dodger as well. Isn’t it funny how he and Russle implemented theier short comings to JW dogma. Forbidden to fight a in a war and not to take oaths. I wonder if the new president changed anything since he took office?
 
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genevieve.oz:
I don’t necessarily agree that it is useless to argue. Yes, pray to the Holy Spirit (lots!!) to help them, but you can be the vessel through which the seeds of doubt in the Watchtower Org. is planted. I would always pray to the Holy Spirit to guide my words as I spoke to Jehovah’s Witnesses, I remember one time when I had two unknown Witnesses at my house discussing religion I got up to attend to my children and overheard one saying to the other “She knows her bible” which was far from the truth. Hopefully, through what I was saying they may have realised that the bible does support Catholic teaching.
…
Arguing alone won’t save them, but through prayers and some guided discussion, you’re bound to get them thinking…
plant the seed, let God do the rest.
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Well, you have a good point. Argumentation is an art form, the key is not to lose one’s temper or show that exasperation which is so common in first-time encounters.

But we must also be able to sustain the conversation, and JW’s are going to break and run if they feel their convictions are under threat. With a loved one it is all the more important that we tread carefully, because these are not strangers, they know us and we know them. Pushing too hard can make them cut us off and they won’t even read mail coming from us. They’ll spend many hours year after year punching doorbells in the area but never talk to us again!

By setting a good example and also being as subtle as possible we might be able to remain in that ever shrinking social pool of the victim’s, and be there to pick them up when things start to go sour on them.

I have made all of the mistakes I write about.

Being a good example of a Christian is a great way to counter a threat of losing more than one family member. Be a good contrast, live your Faith, set a good example:

They don’t help outsiders, we must. Go into the city and help at the shelter or soup kitchen once in a while. Write a check to some worthwhile charitable cause like Catholic Charities.

They will not vote, we must, and sit on juries! Go down to the village board meetings too, be civic-minded.

They will not accept blood, we must donate whenever possible: platelets, whole blood, bone marrow, whatever it takes.

They will not pray for the dead, we must offer masses for the departed and visit the cemetaries. Invite our siblings or cousins to come along.

Keep that Bible out in the living room and read it. Don’t put it away just because company is coming.

Sooner or later the relatives will know what you stand for, it sounds like a lot of work and sacrifice but that’s what will keep the other relative’s from falling into the clutches of the Watchtower after one has gone over.

As Saint Francis did say: Preach the Gospel every day, if necessary use words!

+T+
 
i hope this forum isnt dead

well i was reading the Catechism the other day and remembered this forum. I saw a couple of other people like gomez allude to this too…

I read 538-540, it was a big help in my understanding of the temptation thing

**Jesus’ temptations **
Code: 
**[538](http://javascript%3Cimg%20src=%22images/smilies/redface.gif%22%20border=%220%22%20alt=%22%22%20title=%22Embarrassment%22%20smilieid=%222%22%20class=%22inlineimg%22%20/%3EpenWindow%28%27cr/538.htm%27%29;)** The Gospels speak of a time of solitude for Jesus in the desert immediately after his baptism by John. Driven by the Spirit into the desert, Jesus remains there for forty days without eating; he lives among wild beasts, and angels minister to him.241 At the end of this time Satan tempts him three times, seeking to compromise his filial attitude toward God. Jesus rebuffs these attacks, which recapitulate the temptations of Adam in Paradise and of Israel in the desert, and the devil leaves him "until an opportune time".242 

**[539](http://javascript%3Cimg%20src=%22images/smilies/redface.gif%22%20border=%220%22%20alt=%22%22%20title=%22Embarrassment%22%20smilieid=%222%22%20class=%22inlineimg%22%20/%3EpenWindow%28%27cr/539.htm%27%29;)** The evangelists indicate the salvific meaning of this mysterious event: Jesus is the new Adam who remained faithful just where the first Adam had given in to temptation. Jesus fulfills Israel's vocation perfectly: in contrast to those who had once provoked God during forty years in the desert, Christ reveals himself as God's Servant, totally obedient to the divine will. In this, Jesus is the devil's conqueror: he "binds the strong man" to take back his plunder.243 Jesus' victory over the tempter in the desert anticipates victory at the Passion, the supreme act of obedience of his filial love for the Father. 

**[540](http://javascript%3Cimg%20src=%22images/smilies/redface.gif%22%20border=%220%22%20alt=%22%22%20title=%22Embarrassment%22%20smilieid=%222%22%20class=%22inlineimg%22%20/%3EpenWindow%28%27cr/540.htm%27%29;)** Jesus' temptation reveals the way in which the Son of God is Messiah, contrary to the way Satan proposes to him and the way men wish to attribute to him.244 This is why Christ vanquished the Tempter *for us*: "For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tested as we are, yet without sinning."245 By the solemn forty days of *Lent *the Church unites herself each year to the mystery of Jesus in the desert. 

 241 Cf. *Mk* 1:12-13.
242 *Lk* 4:13.
243 Cf. *Ps* 95:10; *Mk* 3:27
244 Cf *Mt* 16:2 1-23.
245 *Heb* 4:15.
(scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p3.htm#II)

im not sure if a casual read of this means much, but if you read the surrounding paragraphs it is right in the middle of the Catechism/Church teaching on how Jesus is God
 
It has been some time since you posted this thread, and several days since the last post was added. Let me begin by saying that I am Evangelical, not catholic; so you will want to keep that inmind while reading my thoughts - but I have a few thoughts if you still look at the thread.

As has been indicated, this is a major battle. But, you have to begin with a few things.

First, your brother, and most of the JW’s on the street have been convinced that they have the truth; that they are following the true God in the way he wants to be worshipped. The Holy Spirit can get through that; but it is a spiritual battle.

As far as the people that write their booklets, that is a different matter. There is a great deal of similarity to the writings of Chick (see discussion in this forum).

J.W.'s are told not listen to other authority; regretfully for this situation, they particularly reject the Catholic church. They have been convinced that things we as Christians know to be the truth are lies from the devil.

So, where to begin. When you attack them, you merely cofirm their conviction that they are being persecuted for following the truth.

I have not read Scott Hahn’s book. from what I hear, it is an excellent catholic source. I have found Ron Rhodes book “Reasoning fron the Scriptures With Jehovah’s Witnesses” to be helpful. Remember, however that Rhodes and Walter Martin were part of Christain Research Institute. Martin was the original “Bible Answer Man”. As Catholics, that might give you some problems. Just be aware of that.

The people that I have talked to say that you need to take away the credibility of the Watchtower organization. Basically, as I mentioned above, your brother and the J.W’s the street are being deceived by the headquarters.

If you read their material, will notice that there are many references to other works: obscure Bible translations, obscure references to early Christians, etc. IT makes it very difficult to find the primary sources. Almost all of these sources are misquoted or taken out of context.

If you can demonstrate from their own material that the JW’s are lieing, you will go a longway toward convincing your brother that the JW’s are not God’s organization.

One other word of counsel: Their false prophecy and changes in doctrine are well known. They will tell you that “the light is getting brighter”; and “that was old truth”. Don’t let them get away with it. Old truth can’t contradict new truth. Truth is truth. One of the examples must have been false. There is either light or dark; you can’t have truth getting “Brighter”.

FInally, always show an interest in your brother. If he thinks that you are teaching him; he’ll drop you quick. But if you teach him while he THINKS he is teaching you, he will keep working with you. Ask questions, let him explain himself, then ask him but what about"…" and let him answer.

Hope that helps.
 
I’ve read somewhere that the JWs have issued another prediction for the end of the world – I’m not sure, but it’s something like 2024? Does anyone have any info on this?

Here’s a history of past “end of the world” predictions:

religioustolerance.org/witness8.htm:whacky:

JMJ Jay
 
Javier,

I understand exactly what you are going through. I too have a brother and a couple sisters that are long time JWs. Unfortunately, I have made many mistakes in trying to argue with them, especially my brother. But fortunately, I have learned from my mistakes. I will try my best to synthesize what you should try and not try when discussing or socializing with your brother and sister. Tragically, it may be too late for you to rescue your sister – for the moment.

In the meantime, please consider these recommendation:
  1. Pray for your separated family.
  2. Learn about your Catholic faith.
  3. Live a good Catholic life.
When you are comfortable that you have accomplished the above consider the following steps:
  1. Repeat the aforementioned recommendations.
  2. Learn about the JWs, their history, their purpose, and how they make money. Do not tell your JW familiy that you are doing this, unitl you have a solid understanting of what mind control is. There are many websites and books that can inform you of their history. Jason Evert’s book is a good starting place. Consider reading the more sophisticated books written by former JWs.
  3. Learn about cults. The Watchtower is a cult, no different than Scientology, the Peoples Temple or Star Gate, (remember those poor brainwashed people that committed suicide during the Hale Bop comet phenomena?)
To get a overall perspective of cults and where the JWs fit in the scheme of cult physchology, start with a tape set called Hijacked Lives, by Mary Kochran from Saint Joseph’s Communications. Mary is a wonderful person. She helped me understand what the inside JW world is about. In her tape sets she does an excellent job in explaining the hows and whys of the Watchtower.

Follow up by reading Steve Hassan’s excellent books, on Combating Mind Control, (read this one first) and Releasing the Bonds (optional.)

Do not divulge this information to your JW family member until you have a rescue plan. A rescue plan will take years, and will include all of the above recommendations. This may be shortend depending on how much time, where you live in proximity and effort your are willing to spend.
  1. Always remember when talking with your separated family that they are victims, and are also enablers. They are enablers only when it is convenient for them, so be cautious when you feel the brotherly urge to help them, specially financially. They will not hesitate to use you to further their Watchtower objectives.
  2. You may find that their behavior is perplexing. Try not to let them know that. They will bash the Church, clergy, goverments, and the medical profession, the education system, etc. but will not hesitate to use public medicare, welfare and unemployment programs, the post office, and the public school to their advantage. By the way, it has been only in recent years that the Watchtower has lessen (not eliminated) their negative point of view on higher education.
Should you discuss this with they will argue that they pay taxes and therefore are entitled to receive these benefits. While that is true, the point is that they claim that they are “not part of the world” but without the generosity and the incredible blessings that our country has received from God, they would not have even existed. You may waste alot of time and energy on this, but it may depending on the how committed and how long your JW brother and sister have been in the Watchtower.
  1. Last and probably the most important recommendation. Never, ever put your life, your job, your education, your relationship with your wife, parents, other brothers and sisters or girlfriend in jeapordy in an attempt to rescue your JW bother or sister.
Should you need more info don’t hesistate to write me.

Deltorero
 
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