Help with Sedevacantism

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I need help debunking sedevacantism. Please do not say things like “Sedevacantism could never happen!”. Theologians have already decided that the Church could go a long time without a Pope, long before any of you guys were born. Here is a documentary that sparked my interest in it
. it would explain everything that is going wrong today in the Church. I do not want to be a sedevacantist, but I will if it is the truth.Thanks!
 
Sedevacantism contradicts itself. Sedes over the years have disagreed among themselves on who was the last valid pope. Since there must have been a last valid pope, the first imposter pope (presumably appointed by him) would at least have been a valid bishop; so he at least would have valid episcopal authority.

How can you measure when a pope is an imposter? If you say “doctrinal infidelity”, how do you measure that? You might say Pope X disagrees with these prior popes…but how do you know the prior popes were not imposters? Where did you get your template?

Obviously there has been development of doctrine over time. Sedevacantists accept the Trinity, the innovation of a New Testament canon, and a whole slew of other post - St. Peter developments, as fitting into the “core” Catholic belief. But if you accept developments as possible, how can you label Pope Y an imposter if he supported development? Or rather, why don’t you label prior popes (who you use as your comparison template) imposters if they supported innovations like the New Testament?

In order to label some pope an imposter, sedes assume there are criteria for validity, that these men do not meet. Well where did those criteria come from? If you say “rigged election”, well, how did you get the idea there should be an “election” at all, let alone a fair one for a valid pope?

The problem is sedes never show how they justify the validity of past doctrinal developments, or validity of past popes that they claim later popes are inconsistent with. Sedevacantism is essentially a form of Protestantism, in that they point to an imaginary point in the past, and say “obviously” that is all true, but changes after that are wrong. I don’t ask why they say modern stuff is wrong, I ask why they put earlier developments and changes on such a concrete foundation, to use it as a template.

A sedevacantist does not really think there is no current pope. The sede in effect puts himself into the papal chair.
 
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To be honest, the Church has been in much worse shape in the past than it is now. Not saying that we aren’t in bad shape but we have seen worse.
 
We go through a time of sedevacantism every time the Pope passes. Theoretically, there is no limit on how long it would take to choose a successor. The only problem arises when someone disagrees with the choice that is eventually made and takes the “not my Pope” approach to the papacy. Such a one must have had serious error already to elevate his opinion over that of the Church, lacking a basic Catholic faith.
 
IMHO, there are degrees of sedevacantism. You have your hard core group, that says the current pope, and maybe other recent ones, is a total imposter, no standing as Pope at all. Think SSPV. But you have many, many others who say "of course Pope Francis, or Pope Benedict, or JP II is (technically) a pope. In a way. He does supervise the papal guards and papal gardens.

But then they happen to mention in passing, "Well, there are reports of pre-arranged caucuses to rig the papal election. Then they sort of hint at this, or that. They also tend to lapse into referring to the ongoing actions of the current pope not as from Pope Paul VI, but from “Montini”, or now “Bergoglio”. So they kind of put an asterisk besides pope X, that he is something like a Pope, but not exactly an authoritative Pope, such as Pope Pius XII, or whoever. He is a pope, but not a Pope.
 
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Yeah, I’m no huge fan of Pope Francis, but I hate it when people call him “Bergoglio”.
 
Yeah, I’m no huge fan of Pope Francis, but I hate it when people call him “Bergoglio”.
They’ll do the same thing for the next pope, no matter what his positions are. This is a permanent thing.
 
I am in full agreement with the post by commenter.

Seriously you could more easily claim that Pope Vigilius wasn’t a valid Pope http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15427b.htm and probably several others as well.

Who decides? Why this particular Pope and not this other previous Pope? There are many problems with the sedevacantist position, and there are many problems with the claims made in these conspiracy theory type videos. Under close scrutiny, the claims simply fall apart.
 
The only thing I can think of that would make a Pope invalid would be if he either got that position through Simony or if he was lacking a necessary sacrament … for instance if Pope Francis turned out to have never been baptised then that might undermine his claim.

But I don’t think most Sedevacantists think this way. I think most of them just don’t like the current Pope and aren’t willing to swallow their tongues.
 
The only thing I can think of that would make a Pope invalid would be if he either got that position through Simony or if he was lacking a necessary sacrament …
Although difficult to prove, it is almost universally believed that Pope Alexander VI became the Pope through simony and if nothing else his papacy was filled with scandals.http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01289a.htm
 
But that would only invalidate Alexander VI, it wouldn’t invalidate every Pope after him.
 
I have no idea if it would or would not, but it seems from the sedevacantist position regarding John XXIII, it would negate every lawfully elected Pope after him otherwise they wouldn’t hold a sedevacantist position.
 
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If the Popes after him were chosen honestly then they’d be real Popes. As I said earlier, I think most Sedevacantists just don’t like the current Pope and want an excuse to disregard what he says.
 
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I too have struggled recently with this question of Sedevacantism. I am very unhappy with the Mass in the church that we have been attending for the past twelve years. As Benedict Groeschel once quipped, I keep thinking the band is going to rip into ‘There Ain’t No Flies on the Lamb of God!’ during communion.

I’ve attended a few Latin Masses nearby, and find them to be wonderful. Reading online, it’s easy to follow the breadcrumb trail from Latin Mass → SSPX, with all the sedes info. Their argument seems valid - something happened at a moment in time, and things have been wrong ever sense. Thank you to all who have clearly (and simply) set me straight here - I appreciate it!

My question is about the FSSP group. I believe that they are in full communion with Rome, and a practicing Catholic can attend these Masses. Is that correct?
 
Yes the FSSP are in full coumunion with Rome.
 
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My question is about the FSSP group. I believe that they are in full communion with Rome, and a practicing Catholic can attend these Masses. Is that correct?
Cliffnotes; after the situation with the SSPX first unfolded, a group of priests were uncomfortable with the situation. They approached the Pope and asked to “come back” and what kind of accommodations could be granted. From there, the FSSP was formed thanks to the efforts of those priests and the Pope.

Very trustworthy, the FSSP are. If they are present in your area, it would not be a bad thing to visit them.
 
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Let’s review; these are the facts that no one is disputing. There was a conclave. All the cardinals gathered. They locked the doors and voted. White smoke came out of the chimney. The dean of the cardinals came out and said, “Habemus Papum…” Out came the ex Cardinal Bergoglio now Pope Francis.
Catholics everywhere recognize that Pope Francis is the Pope. Non-Catholics recognize that Pope Francis is the Pope They may say that they disagree with him but they don’t deny who he is.
It is only a small group that doesn’t want to accept reality that say that the see is vacant. The bottom lie is that it is a lie to say that there is no Pope.
 
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