Helping Protestants what Catholic Devotions and Discipline are.

[Mannyfit75]

This for those Non-Catholic Christian (Protestants) who have little or no knowledge of what Catholic devotions and disciplines are. In many cases, they confused devotions and discipline equal to Catholic doctrine and dogma (deposit of faith). They aren’t the same.

I won’t discuss Catholic doctrine and dogmas here since that we already have a thread on that subject.

First let us define what devotions and disciplines are.

Catholic Devotions are prayer forms which are not part of the official public liturgy of the Church but are part of the popular spiritual practices of Catholics. Many are officially sanctioned by the Church as profitable for spiritual growth but not necessary for salvation. Often devotions in the Church take the form of formalized prayers, sacred objects or sacred images that arise from private revelations, or personal religious experiences of individuals such as apparitions of Mary or of Christ. Catholic devotions also include the veneration of the saints.

Examples of devotions are the Chaplet of Divine Mercy based on the private Revelation of St. Faustina (who was visited by Jesus Christ), the rosary, the St. Michael Chaplet, Novenas like Sacred Heart of Jesus, scapular, etc.

Devotions help the Catholic faithful to strengthen their faith and promotes a greater love of a prayful life to God. Devotions are not required by the Catholic Church to practice. It is up to the individual whether or not these devotions are fruitful.

Catholic Disciples are rites or practices such as the language of the Mass. These can change over time. Catholic discipline include priestly celibacy, liturgical rites, and so forth. Disciplines also include Canonical Laws like the Code of Canon Law, which can change if need be (Correct me if I’m wrong).

I hope this helps a little.

 

[BrewMax]

This for those Non-Catholic Christian (Protestants) who have little or no knowledge of what Catholic devotions and disciplines are. In many cases, they confused devotions and discipline equal to Catholic doctrine and dogma (deposit of faith). They aren’t the same.

I won’t discuss Catholic doctrine and dogmas here since that we already have a thread on that subject.

First let us define what devotions and disciplines are.

Catholic Devotions are prayer forms which are not part of the official public liturgy of the Church but are part of the popular spiritual practices of Catholics. Many are officially sanctioned by the Church as profitable for spiritual growth but not necessary for salvation. Often devotions in the Church take the form of formalized prayers, sacred objects or sacred images that arise from private revelations, or personal religious experiences of individuals such as apparitions of Mary or of Christ. Catholic devotions also include the veneration of the saints.

Examples of devotions are the Chaplet of Divine Mercy based on the private Revelation of St. Faustina (who was visited by Jesus Christ), the rosary, the St. Michael Chaplet, Novenas like Sacred Heart of Jesus, scapular, etc.

Devotions help the Catholic faithful to strengthen their faith and promotes a greater love of a prayful life to God. Devotions are not required by the Catholic Church to practice. It is up to the individual whether or not these devotions are fruitful.

Catholic Disciples are rites or practices such as the language of the Mass. These can change over time. Catholic discipline include priestly celibacy, liturgical rites, and so forth. Disciplines also include Canonical Laws like the Code of Canon Law, which can change if need be (Correct me if I’m wrong).

I hope this helps a little.

Oh come on Manny, you keep beating the same dead horse here. Just because some folks aren’t Catholic or have left the church doesn’t mean that they are ignorant of Catholicism. Many Protestants know Catholicism better than most cradle Catholics. God’s plan of salavation is far simpler than what the Catholic church teaches its faithful. Martin Luther knew this and was apalled by it as well everyone should be.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Oh come on Manny, you keep beating the same dead horse here. Just because some folks aren’t Catholic or have left the church doesn’t mean that they are ignorant of Catholicism. Many Protestants know Catholicism better than most cradle Catholics. God’s plan of salavation is far simpler than what the Catholic church teaches its faithful. Martin Luther knew this and was apalled by it as well everyone should be.

Well, that was rather rude.

Manny began this thread in response to a poster in the thread about Doctrine and Dogma. That particular poster insisted on talking about devotions and disciplines, even though, since the thread was about Doctine and Dogma, those subjects were off topic.

In other words, Manny was providing a place where that poster, even though he disagrees with us, could continue his discussion without derailing the thread.

It was a very generous thing to do, and the response he gets from you is an attack.

You owe him an apology.

 

[Zooey]

BrewMax, if it is true that:

Many Protestants know Catholicism better than most cradle Catholics.

, then why do so many people come here without the slightest idea that, say, the Chaplet of Divine Mercy is a prayer, not a doctrine?
Or that fasting is a discipline? (As opposed to a dogma, which exact mistake I have seen made here. More than once).

Manny, this is a:thumbsup: good idea!!
I wanted to mention litanies as part of the prayers that I see people fussing over. Folks seem to think that they are some kind of doctrinal matter, when they are lovely, poetic prayers. (I have a whole book full of them, from TAN books, that I picked up at a nearby bookstore).

 

[Mannyfit75]

Oh come on Manny, you keep beating the same dead horse here. Just because some folks aren’t Catholic or have left the church doesn’t mean that they are ignorant of Catholicism. Many Protestants know Catholicism better than most cradle Catholics. God’s plan of salavation is far simpler than what the Catholic church teaches its faithful. Martin Luther knew this and was apalled by it as well everyone should be.

BrewMax,

I made this thread because one of the Protestant forum members here doesn’t seem to understand what a Catholic devotion and disciplines are. In my experience in the forum here (which is over 1 yrs longer than you been in), many Non-Catholic Christians seem to confused devotions as part of Catholic dogma.

To be quiet honest, BrewMax Ex-Catholics were poorly catechized in the 1970s and 1980s. They left the Church for so many reasons. If they truly know what they have they would not have leave the Church in the first place. I have stories and reasons, which I find almost ridicules. I won’t get into it since this is not about Ex-Catholics.

God’s plan for salvation isn’t easy. Jesus said, if you wish to follow me, you must take up your cross. Christians are called often to suffer with Christ. Christ demands a lot from us and demands that Christians obey all of his commandments.

Indeed, the Catholic Church plan for salvation is difficult. The restriction on contraception, abortion, homosexuality, etc are very difficult for most Catholics to follow. These are necessary because the Catholic Church wishes its faithful to live a holy life. Christianity is not a religion of wimps. It’s a religion for the strong hearted ones. Christians are called to imitate Christ even to suffer greatly in this life. There are times I pray God allow me to suffer more so I can offer it up to God as an atonement for the sins of mankind.

I won’t discuss about the concept of salvation here because it is apparent in your posts that **you wish to derail **the topic by bringing up topics not dealing with devotions or disciplines. So, Max, if you want to discuss the issue of salvation make a new THREAD. It’s easy as ONE, TWO, and THREE>

Now I shall return to regular topic. Catholic devotions provide Catholics a chance to increase his spiritual grows and strengthen his love for God. Disciplines are norms and practices by the Church such as liturgical rites, vestments, liturgical calendar, etc.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Well, that was rather rude.

Manny began this thread in response to a poster in the thread about Doctrine and Dogma. That particular poster insisted on talking about devotions and disciplines, even though, since the thread was about Doctine and Dogma, those subjects were off topic.

In other words, Manny was providing a place where that poster, even though he disagrees with us, could continue his discussion without derailing the thread.

It was a very generous thing to do, and the response he gets from you is an attack.

You owe him an apology.

Yes, BrewMax owes me an apology.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Manny, this is a:thumbsup: good idea!!
I wanted to mention litanies as part of the prayers that I see people fussing over. Folks seem to think that they are some kind of doctrinal matter, when they are lovely, poetic prayers. (I have a whole book full of them, from TAN books, that I picked up at a nearby bookstore).

I love the litanies and the novenas. I have a lot for numerous devotions, like the Divine Mercy Chaplet, Rosary, Sacred Heart of Jesus, and other litanies as well as novenas.

 

[justasking4]

Since protestants are supposedly confused about Catholic devotions and Disciplines i looked up some of these devotions and what they claim.

A Solemn Act of Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary
Most Holy Virgin Mary, tender Mother of men, to fulfill the desires of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the request of the Vicar of Your Son on earth, we consecrate ourselves and our families to your Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart, O Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, and we recommend to You, all the people of our country and all the world.

Please accept our consecration, dearest Mother, and use us as You wish to accomplish Your designs in the world.
O Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, and Queen of the World, rule over us, together with the Sacred Heart of Jesus Christ, Our King. Save us from the spreading flood of modern paganism; kindle in our hearts and homes the love of purity, the practice of a virtuous life, an ardent zeal for souls, and a desire to pray the Rosary more faithfully.

We come with confidence to You, O Throne of Grace and Mother of Fair Love. Inflame us with the same Divine Fire which has inflamed Your own Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart. Make our hearts and homes Your shrine, and through us, make the Heart of Jesus, together with your rule, triumph in every heart and home.

Amen.

–Venerable Pope Pius XII

As a protestant i see this as something profoundly unbibilcal. For one we don’t see Mary ever protrayed like this in the scriptures. Where for example is it said in Scripture that we are to be consecrated to Mary? Where did Jesus or the apostles ever teach that Mary would save us from anything?
Where do the scriptures exhort us to come to her with confidence?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Since protestants are supposedly confused about Catholic devotions and Disciplines i looked up some of these devotions and what they claim.

As a protestant i see this as something profoundly unbibilcal. For one we don’t see Mary ever protrayed like this in the scriptures. Where for example is it said in Scripture that we are to be consecrated to Mary?

The form of the prayer is poetic in prayer. Many times Protestants often used Catholic prayers especially about Mary to show us our so called "un-Biblical practices.

These devotions are not even dogmatic or part of the deposit of faith.

Where did Jesus or the apostles ever teach that Mary would save us from anything?

Mary saved us indirectly because she said “be it done onto me according to your word” without those word, the Word, who is Jesus would not become flesh. Likewise, any Christian can save someone indirectly when the preached about the salvation that Jesus Christ taught.

Where do the scriptures exhort us to come to her with confidence?

Because she loved God and obey his will. Second, instead of looking for Marian prayers. Why have you not even bother looking at the devotions centered on Christ, like the Divine Mercy Chaplet or the Sacred Heart of Jesus?

 

[justasking4]

Mannyfit75;2785453]

The form of the prayer is poetic in prayer. Many times Protestants often used Catholic prayers especially about Mary to show us our so called "un-Biblical practices.

These devotions are not even dogmatic or part of the deposit of faith.
Are these prayers though endorsed by the church?

Mary saved us indirectly because she said “be it done onto me according to your word” without those word, the Word, who is Jesus would not become flesh.

Why stop with Mary saying yes? Its just as much true that her parents are share also in this by being her parents. Without them and the way they must have raised her to be a godly woman she would not have been fit to be the mother of Christ.

Likewise, any Christian can save someone indirectly when the preached about the salvation that Jesus Christ taught.

Because she loved God and obey his will. Second, instead of looking for Marian prayers. Why have you not even bother looking at the devotions centered on Christ, like the Divine Mercy Chaplet or the Sacred Heart of Jesus?

i have. Below is the last part of a prayer to the Efficacious Novena to the Sacred Heart of Jesus:
O Sacred Heart of Jesus, for whom it is impossible not to have compassion on the afflicted, have pity on us miserable sinners and grant us the grace which we ask of you, **through the Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, your tender Mother and ours. **Say the Hail, Holy Queen and add: St. Joseph, foster father of Jesus, pray for us.

Again we see unbiblical doctrines being inserted into this prayer. We also see Mary being put on the same level as Christ.
What do you think?

 

[BrewMax]

Well, that was rather rude.

Manny began this thread in response to a poster in the thread about Doctrine and Dogma. That particular poster insisted on talking about devotions and disciplines, even though, since the thread was about Doctine and Dogma, those subjects were off topic.

In other words, Manny was providing a place where that poster, even though he disagrees with us, could continue his discussion without derailing the thread.

It was a very generous thing to do, and the response he gets from you is an attack.

You owe him an apology.

Come on… This guy takes every opportunity to attack Protestants here with loaded questions, false assertions and a constant combination of his own rhetoric. Many times his opinions don’t even mirror Catholic teaching. He is very rude and inappropriate in his actions and behavior toward Protestants here many times and I don’t feel I need to apologize for giving him a dose of his own medicine and I’m not even Protestant.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Come on… This guy takes every opportunity to attack Protestants here with loaded questions, false assertions and a constant combination of his own rhetoric. Many times his opinions don’t even mirror Catholic teaching. He is very rude and inappropriate in his actions and behavior toward Protestants here many times and I don’t feel I need to apologize for giving him a dose of his own medicine and I’m not even Protestant.

I take it then that you believe rudeness (which I don’t agree Manny was showing) should be answered with rudeness. But didn’t Jesus tell us to turn the other cheek?

Manny and I both explained why this thread was started: to give another poster the chance to continue a discussion, even though he disagrees with Manny. I see nothing rude whatsoever in this thread’s opening post.

 

[Cat]

I agree with Manny.

When I was Protestant, I didn’t understand what Catholics meant by devotions, discipline, dogma, and doctrine.

David Currie has a very nice explanation in Born Once, Born Again Catholic.

Manny’s definitions are pretty much the same as Currie’s.

I think it’s really important for Catholics and Protestants to define terms, becaus they use them differently. For example, to a Protestant, your “devotions” are the practice of reading your Bible and praying. Other words for this practice are “Quiet Time,” and “Morning Watch.”

 

[lak611]

Since protestants are supposedly confused about Catholic devotions and Disciplines i looked up some of these devotions and what they claim.

A Solemn Act of Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary
Most Holy Virgin Mary, tender Mother of men, to fulfill the desires of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the request of the Vicar of Your Son on earth, we consecrate ourselves and our families to your Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart, O Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, and we recommend to You, all the people of our country and all the world.

Please accept our consecration, dearest Mother, and use us as You wish to accomplish Your designs in the world.
O Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, and Queen of the World, rule over us, together with the Sacred Heart of Jesus Christ, Our King. Save us from the spreading flood of modern paganism; kindle in our hearts and homes the love of purity, the practice of a virtuous life, an ardent zeal for souls, and a desire to pray the Rosary more faithfully.

We come with confidence to You, O Throne of Grace and Mother of Fair Love. Inflame us with the same Divine Fire which has inflamed Your own Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart. Make our hearts and homes Your shrine, and through us, make the Heart of Jesus, together with your rule, triumph in every heart and home.

Amen.

–Venerable Pope Pius XII

As a protestant i see this as something profoundly unbibilcal. For one we don’t see Mary ever protrayed like this in the scriptures. Where for example is it said in Scripture that we are to be consecrated to Mary? Where did Jesus or the apostles ever teach that Mary would save us from anything?
Where do the scriptures exhort us to come to her with confidence?

Your post just supported the reason for Manny to start this thread. Devotions are not mandatory. If you do not like a particular devotion, you do not have to do it. If somebody else likes it, it is fine for them. Doctrine and Dogma must be followed by all Catholics, but not Devotions.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Come on… This guy takes every opportunity to attack Protestants here with loaded questions, false assertions and a constant combination of his own rhetoric. Many times his opinions don’t even mirror Catholic teaching. He is very rude and inappropriate in his actions and behavior toward Protestants here many times and I don’t feel I need to apologize for giving him a dose of his own medicine and I’m not even Protestant.

The threads I posted here is **primarily to open understanding *between Non-Catholic Christians and Catholics. Yes, in the past I have wrote uncharitable *posts, I’m a Christian and I can make mistakes.

However, I see nothing in this thread that would be contrary to what the Forum Rules. If you have any problems with me which is* apparently you do*, you need to** point out to me directly **where I was rude and inappropriate.

If you bother to look at first post I wrote.

This for those Non-Catholic Christian (Protestants) who have little or no knowledge

of what Catholic devotions and disciplines are.

This thread is specifically targeted to those who have little knowledge or no knowledge about Catholic devotion and disciplines. Unless you fit in this catagory, you don’t need to be in this discussion.

Many times, in my experience, Non-Catholic Christians have a somewhat distorted view of what Catholic devotions and disciplines are.

I made this thread to clear some issues.

Seriously, Max, I really like to see where my comments was rude and (name removed by moderator)roper.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Are these prayers though endorsed by the church?

They aren’t required but recommended. A Catholic may use these prayers or not.

Why stop with Mary saying yes? Its just as much true that her parents are share also in this by being her parents. Without them and the way they must have raised her to be a godly woman she would not have been fit to be the mother of Christ.

They raised her as a Jewish girl. A devoted young Jewish girl.

i have. Below is the last part of a prayer to the Efficacious Novena to the Sacred Heart of Jesus:

O Sacred Heart of Jesus, for whom it is impossible not to have compassion on the afflicted, have pity on us miserable sinners and grant us the grace which we ask of you, **through the Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, your tender Mother and ours. **

Say the Hail, Holy Queen and add: St. Joseph, foster father of Jesus, pray for us.

Again we see unbiblical doctrines being inserted into this prayer. We also see Mary being put on the same level as Christ.
What do you think?

Nope, she isn’t put the same level as Christ. The Catholic Church doesn’t teaches that. I do see you try to put the prayer out of context.

The prayer itself is like a Group prayer. I’m sure you are familiar with group of Christians praying together as one group. In this prayer, we unit our prayers together with the Virgin Mary, and St. Joseph directly to Jesus.

It is very likely you won’t be able to grasp this because you aren’t Catholic. The best way I can put my tongue into it is that Catholics believe in the Communion of Saints. In this unity of Christians coming together in prayer include the Christians on earth, the Christians or saints in heaven, and those in purgatory. They are all united in prayer to God.

I do like to make it clear that the Catholic Church never teaches that Mary is equal to God. Second the prayer doesn’t even say “Mary is equal to God.” You are looking into a prayer and conclude something that isn’t in there.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Your post just supported the reason for Manny to start this thread. Devotions are not mandatory. If you do not like a particular devotion, you do not have to do it. If somebody else likes it, it is fine for them. Doctrine and Dogma must be followed by all Catholics, but not Devotions.

Exactly, I think many Catholics converts coming from the Protestant tradition would like the Divine Mercy Chaplet a lot. You use a rosary bead and recite the following.

First you say, 1 Our Father, 1 Hail Mary, Apostles Creed, and then on the large bead you say,

Eternal Father, I offer you the Body, and Blood, Soul, and Divinity, of your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins, and those of the whole world.

On the ten beads, you recite.

For the sake of His Sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

After you complete recite the final prayer, you say, Holy God, Holy Mighty One, Holy Immortal One, Have mercy on us, and one the whole world, three times, and you say the concluding prayer,

and there is also a 9 day Novena.

 

[justasking4]

Your post just supported the reason for Manny to start this thread. Devotions are not mandatory. If you do not like a particular devotion, you do not have to do it. If somebody else likes it, it is fine for them. Doctrine and Dogma must be followed by all Catholics, but not Devotions.

Are these devotions based on truth? For example on one of the scapulars there is a promise that if a person follows it and is wearing it the day he dies he will be set free of purgatory on the first Saturday after his death.
If this is true, then don’t you think the catholic church should mandate this for all catholics since all who practice this devotion would be in purgatory for a short time?

 

[justasking4]

Mannyfit75;2788106]

They aren’t required but recommended. A Catholic may use these prayers or not.
That may be but is it not true that the catholic church believes these things to be true?

They raised her as a Jewish girl. A devoted young Jewish girl.

i have. Below is the last part of a prayer to the Efficacious Novena to the Sacred Heart of Jesus:

Nope, she isn’t put the same level as Christ. The Catholic Church doesn’t teaches that. I do see you try to put the prayer out of context.

i know the catholic church says this but when you look at all the literature you will find that Mary is indeed taking the place of the HS.
i also know i am not taking this stuff out of context. This stuff is not some great mystery or that you need to be a catholic to understand it. Words have meanings and almost everyone here can understand the contexts for things written.

The prayer itself is like a Group prayer. I’m sure you are familiar with group of Christians praying together as one group. In this prayer, we unit our prayers together with the Virgin Mary, and St. Joseph directly to Jesus.

Do you see how catholic doctrine plays out here?

It is very likely you won’t be able to grasp this because you aren’t Catholic. The best way I can put my tongue into it is that Catholics believe in the Communion of Saints. In this unity of Christians coming together in prayer include the Christians on earth, the Christians or saints in heaven, and those in purgatory. They are all united in prayer to God.

Being catholic doesn’t give one any extra insight into catholic doctrines. Reading what the church teaches and devotional material is adequate to understand this. The problem is the Scriptures. If catholics understood clearly what the scriptures teach about prayer and worship and compared this with these devotions they would see a conflict.

I do like to make it clear that the Catholic Church never teaches that Mary is equal to God. Second the prayer doesn’t even say “Mary is equal to God.” You are looking into a prayer and conclude something that isn’t in there.

I understand this. However, it is making claims about her that are only true of God. Again it gets back to what the scriptures teach about how we are to approach God. All approaches (prayer) is done only through Christ and God. This method is more than sufficent to gain access for us because of what Christ has done.
See Ephesians 3:12 and Hebrews 4:15-16. These promises alone rules out any need for Mary or any saint who has died and supposedly can hear your prayers.

 

[Mannyfit75]

That may be but is it not true that the catholic church believes these things to be true?

They are prayers.

i know the catholic church says this but when you look at all the literature you will find that Mary is indeed taking the place of the HS.

That is** heresy and that’s not even mention in the Catechism of the Catholic**. She is often address as spouse of the Holy Spirit, but never had the Catholic Church teaches that Mary is indeeding taking the place of the Holy Spirit.

You need to repeat after me. The Catholic Church does not teach that Mary replace the Holy Spirit.

It is apparent **you don’t know or have a clue ** :doh2: what Catholic teachings is in Mary. You claim that the Church teaches that Mary replace the Holy Spirit. Not true.

i also know i am not taking this stuff out of context. This stuff is not some great mystery or that you need to be a catholic to understand it. Words have meanings and almost everyone here can understand the contexts for things written.

You are. You aren’t Catholic and you don’t have much credibly on knowing what we believe or practice.

Do you see how catholic doctrine plays out here?

We aren’t talking about doctrine here. If you want to discuss doctrine find that thread that covers it. I am merely pointing out to you that the devotion prayers reflects upon the common practice of praying with the saints in heaven. It doesn’t make up new doctrines.

Being catholic doesn’t give one any extra insight into catholic doctrines. Reading what the church teaches and devotional material is adequate to understand this. The problem is the Scriptures. If catholics understood clearly what the scriptures teach about prayer and worship and compared this with these devotions they would see a conflict.

They aren’t in inflict. You just refuse to understand the practice of Catholic devotion.

I understand this. However, it is making claims about her that are only true of God. Again it gets back to what the scriptures teach about how we are to approach God. All approaches (prayer) is done only through Christ and God. This method is more than sufficent to gain access for us because of what Christ has done.
See Ephesians 3:12 and Hebrews 4:15-16. These promises alone rules out any need for Mary or any saint who has died and supposedly can hear your prayers.

They can hear your prayers. If you say that we don’t Mary. Then I don’t need **you to pray **for me. Because you know as Christians we are made intercessors in Christ. God is God of the living not the dead.

If you say dead saints can’t hear then explain why Moses who is dead was speaking to Jesus at his transfiguration? Or when Peter raised Tabitha from dead which he prayed first, and then told her to wake up, and she did.