Helping Protestants what Catholic Devotions and Discipline are.

[BrewMax]

These devotions are not even dogmatic or part of the deposit of faith.

Then why have them or practice them? Is it because they are so blatantly un-Biblical?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Then why have them or practice them? Is it because they are so blatantly un-Biblical?

They are practiced to develop a more deeply spiritual grows. I for example pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet every 3 o’clock AM (it’s usually done in the afternoon but I work night shift so I pray it in the morning. In Scripture Jesus died at the cross at the 3rd hour in afternoon. I find asking Jesus to have mercy of me (us) very spiritual uplifting.

Each Catholic differ in their devotions. Some older generation like to focus their devotion to Mary. While others lean towards Jesus Christ.

They aren’t un-Biblical. In fact the Divine Mercy speaks of God’s mercy much like the same message preached in the 4 Gospels. I also would love some day to attend a Eucharistic Adoration, but my deployment here in Iraq makes it impossible.

In addition, I prayed the Vesper (Liturgy of the Hours), which have the Morning and Evening Prayers, which contains writings from the Bible such as Psalm readings, Zechariah’s prayer, Mary’s Magnificat Prayer, as well as Epistles of Paul, Peter, James, and a reading from the Book of Revelation. .

 

[justasking4]

Mannyfit75;2788710]

They are prayers.
I understand that. Are these prayers expressing the truth though?

That is** heresy and that’s not even mention in the Catechism of the Catholic**

. She is often address as spouse of the Holy Spirit, but never had the Catholic Church teaches that Mary is indeeding taking the place of the Holy Spirit.

You need to repeat after me. The Catholic Church does not teach that Mary replace the Holy Spirit.

It is apparent **you don’t know or have a clue ** :doh2: what Catholic teachings is in Mary. You claim that the Church teaches that Mary replace the Holy Spirit. Not true.

You are. You aren’t Catholic and you don’t have much credibly on knowing what we believe or practice.
I agree that the catholic does not teach that Mary is taking the place of the HS. Howerver, when you study the marian devotional material that is endorsed by the catholic church, a person can easily conclude that she is some kind of goddess. The church may not intend this but the evidence is there. If you haven’t already, read the Glories of Mary and see how Saint Ligori presents her.

We aren’t talking about doctrine here. If you want to discuss doctrine find that thread that covers it. I am merely pointing out to you that the devotion prayers reflects upon the common practice of praying with the saints in heaven. It doesn’t make up new doctrines.

My point is that catholic doctrines permenate these devotions. For example the doctrine that Mary is queen of heaven is one such doctrine that impacts these devotions.

They aren’t in inflict. You just refuse to understand the practice of Catholic devotion.

I do understand. What i do is reject them as being unbiblical and not taught by the scriptures. Not only that, they are totally unnecessary since Christ alone is sufficent.

They can hear your prayers. If you say that we don’t Mary. Then I don’t need **you to pray **

for me. Because you know as Christians we are made intercessors in Christ. God is God of the living not the dead.
Couple of things here. I think it has been demonstrated that the scriptures don’t teach a communication between those who have died=sleep and the living here. In fact I Thessalonians 4:13-17 which speaks of believers who have died as being asleep.–
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him **those who have fallen asleep **in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

This passage alone destroys any idea of some kind communication going on between us and them who died-sleep. Keep in mind that when a person is asleep they are totally unaware of the world.

If you say dead saints can’t hear then explain why Moses who is dead was speaking to Jesus at his transfiguration?

The context is not about prayer but an actual appearance by Moses to Jesus.

Or when Peter raised Tabitha from dead which he prayed first, and then told her to wake up, and she did.

In this case its not that Tabitha herself was able to “hear” Peter speak but that Peter was given the power to raise her from the dead. Also, the scriptures don’t present this as some kind of prayer either.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I understand that. Are these prayers expressing the truth though?

These prayers are expressed with love and devotion.

I agree that the catholic does not teach that Mary is taking the place of the HS. Howerver, when you study the marian devotional material that is endorsed by the catholic church, a person can easily conclude that she is some kind of goddess. The church may not intend this but the evidence is there. If you haven’t already, read the Glories of Mary and see how Saint Ligori presents her.

I have read the Glories of Mary and what he wrote about her is purely poetic in nature. The Glories of Mary was discuss here, which I took part in as well as others.

My study on Mary hasn’t proven anything that she is some kind of goddess as you persumed. The idea or belief is foreign in Catholic teaching.

My point is that catholic doctrines permenate these devotions. For example the doctrine that Mary is queen of heaven is one such doctrine that impacts these devotions

.

The bases for Mary’s queenship is based on Revelation 12:1 and her relationship with her son. In Biblical typological, Davidic Kings have their mothers as queen. Since Jesus inherited the Davidic kingdom, and he is king, his mother therefore would be queen.

That is how I understand it. The Church has never official declare dogmatically that she is queen, but is a belief have since the centuries of the Early Church.

I do understand. What i do is reject them as being unbiblical and not taught by the scriptures. Not only that, they are totally unnecessary since Christ alone is sufficent.

You should know by now, we Catholics do not adhere to Bible Alone. We adhere to Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and Magisterial Authority (the bishops in union with the Pope). Jesus Christ is the mediator, we Catholics believe that. As Christians though, we part take in the mediation towards others. When was the last time you prayed for someone on their behalf because they were to ill to help themselves?

Couple of things here. I think it has been demonstrated that the scriptures don’t teach a communication between those who have died=sleep and the living here. In fact I Thessalonians 4:13-17 which speaks of believers who have died as being asleep.–
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him **those who have fallen asleep **

in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

This passage alone destroys any idea of some kind communication going on between us and them who died-sleep. Keep in mind that when a person is asleep they are totally unaware of the world.

I disagree completely. If that passage say that it destroy any communication between us and the dead saints. Then Jesus didn’t really spoke to Moses, who we know died.

So you believe when you die, your soul doesn’t have a free will to be aware of anything? I don’t see even in Scripture that states that dead people are unaware of the world. Scripture disagrees with you. Even the dead prophet Samuel knew what was going on. See 1 Sam. 28:7-20 the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).

The context is not about prayer but an actual appearance by Moses to Jesus.

Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah.

In this case its not that Tabitha herself was able to “hear” Peter speak but that Peter was given the power to raise her from the dead. Also, the scriptures don’t present this as some kind of prayer either.

Peter was given power from God. He prayed first.

Here is what Acts 9 says,

40 And they all being put forth, Peter kneeling down prayed, and turning to the body, he said: Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes; and seeing Peter, she sat up.

Peter first prayed, and then told Tabitha to wake up. Do you wonder what Peter prayed about? He was praying to the Father, and probably asking him to have Tabitha’s soul return to her body.

 

[justasking4]

Mannyfit75;2795421]

Quote:justasking4
Couple of things here. I think it has been demonstrated that the scriptures don’t teach a communication between those who have died=sleep and the living here. In fact I Thessalonians 4:13-17 which speaks of believers who have died as being asleep.–
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

This passage alone destroys any idea of some kind communication going on between us and them who died-sleep. Keep in mind that when a person is asleep they are totally unaware of the world.

Mannyfit75
I disagree completely. If that passage say that it destroy any communication between us and the dead saints. Then Jesus didn’t really spoke to Moses, who we know died.

You are comparing 2 different things here. The scriptures do teach that when a Christian dies he is said to be “asleep” as
I Thessalonians 4:13-17 states. In the case of Moses appearing to Jesus this was a very unique event that God allowed. Jesus was not praying to Moses but was actually conversing with him.

Mannyfit75
So you believe when you die, your soul doesn’t have a free will to be aware of anything? I don’t see even in Scripture that states that dead people are unaware of the world.

People that are asleep are unaware of the world. Correct?

Mannyfit75
Scripture disagrees with you. Even the dead prophet Samuel knew what was going on. See 1 Sam. 28:7-20 the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).

What Saul did was it something that God approved of? Was going through a medium something that he should have done?

Secondly, even this passage in I Samuel would also be an exception by God. No writer of the OT uses this text as some kind of support for praying to those who have died. This would have been an excellent passage to use to support praying to the deceased with the belief they can hear your prayers. The fact is that it is never used this way in scripture.

Quote:justasking4
The context is not about prayer but an actual appearance by Moses to Jesus.

Mannyfit75
Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah.

True. However, was He praying to them? Were they invisible to Him and the apostles? Is this passage used as a “prayer” text in the NT?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

People that are asleep are unaware of the world. Correct?

Had to jump in here, just. . .people who are asleep are much more ‘aware’ of the world than you might think. I recommend you check out a sleep study program at your friendly hospital and talk to some of the staff. You would be surprised at how ‘aware’ of the world people are through many stages of their ‘sleep patterns’.

And consider the comatose and those who are ‘sedated’ who appear to be asleep, have the same wave complexes etc. and who STARTLE people when they come out of the coma or sedation by telling them what they HEARD while in that coma or sedation; even what they felt, or smelled (like a perfume).

 

[justasking4]

Had to jump in here, just. . .people who are asleep are much more ‘aware’ of the world than you might think. I recommend you check out a sleep study program at your friendly hospital and talk to some of the staff. You would be surprised at how ‘aware’ of the world people are through many stages of their ‘sleep patterns’.

And consider the comatose and those who are ‘sedated’ who appear to be asleep, have the same wave complexes etc. and who STARTLE people when they come out of the coma or sedation by telling them what they HEARD while in that coma or sedation; even what they felt, or smelled (like a perfume).

What do you think the Paul meant when he wrote that those who have died in Christ are asleep?

 

[Mannyfit75]

justasking4:

You are comparing 2 different things here. The scriptures do teach that when a Christian dies he is said to be “asleep” as
I Thessalonians 4:13-17 states. In the case of Moses appearing to Jesus this was a very unique event that God allowed. Jesus was not praying to Moses but was actually conversing with him.

Yes, he was conversing and Moses soul was speaking to Jesus. His body is buried still. Jesus was speaking to Moses who was without a body. You know this clearly from Scripture. You claim when you don’t you aren’t aware of the things around. I strongly disagree with that OPINION of yours.

People that are asleep are unaware of the world. Correct?

When we are asleep we aren’t aware. The difference between sleeping and dying is this. When you die, your soul is separated from your body. When you sleep, your body and soul are still together as one.

What Saul did was it something that God approved of? Was going through a medium something that he should have done?

Secondly, even this passage in I Samuel would also be an exception by God. No writer of the OT uses this text as some kind of support for praying to those who have died. This would have been an excellent passage to use to support praying to the deceased with the belief they can hear your prayers. The fact is that it is never used this way in scripture.

God doesn’t approve summoning the dead or use a medium. The point I’m trying to make is Samuel was aware what was going on is Israel. You claim that the dead don’t know like if they had no free will.

My friend, your soul has a personality and free will.

True. However, was He praying to them? Were they invisible to Him and the apostles? Is this passage used as a “prayer” text in the NT?

Peter did pray. As the passage clearly state. I had it up to hear. I have done my best to explain my position on this matter. I’m practically preaching to the choir here, and you won’t listen. I’m done with you.

I only have one thing to say. Do you think your soul has a free will and function as much as you can except with a body, or do you think when you die the soul will just drift out to either heaven, or hell.

Scripture made it VERY clear the dead saints are aware. I also like to add that at the death of Jesus when the tomb of the saints were open and were preaching the Gospel, I think it is pretty clear that Messiah has come to free them from the netherworld. It is apparent that they were visited by Jesus Christ as well, because St. Peter said, he went to preached to the dead.

The idea that the dead saints aren’t aware of the things around them is Un-Biblical

 

[guanophore]

Since protestants are supposedly confused about Catholic devotions and Disciplines i looked up some of these devotions and what they claim.

In your case ja4, it is clearly more than just a supposition.

A Solemn Act of Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary
Most Holy Virgin Mary, tender Mother of men, to fulfill the desires of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the request of the Vicar of Your Son on earth, we consecrate ourselves and our families to your Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart, O Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, and we recommend to You, all the people of our country and all the world.

Please accept our consecration, dearest Mother, and use us as You wish to accomplish Your designs in the world.
O Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, and Queen of the World, rule over us, together with the Sacred Heart of Jesus Christ, Our King. Save us from the spreading flood of modern paganism; kindle in our hearts and homes the love of purity, the practice of a virtuous life, an ardent zeal for souls, and a desire to pray the Rosary more faithfully.

We come with confidence to You, O Throne of Grace and Mother of Fair Love. Inflame us with the same Divine Fire which has inflamed Your own Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart. Make our hearts and homes Your shrine, and through us, make the Heart of Jesus, together with your rule, triumph in every heart and home.

Amen.

–Venerable Pope Pius XII

As a protestant i see this as something profoundly unbibilcal.

Naturally.
justasking4;2785136:

For one we don’t see Mary ever protrayed like this in the scriptures.

certainly not!

Where for example is it said in Scripture that we are to be consecrated to Mary?

Where does it say we can’t?

Where did Jesus or the apostles ever teach that Mary would save us from anything?
Where do the scriptures exhort us to come to her with confidence?

Where does it say that Mary should be excluded from this promise?
19 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

Where did the Apostle state that these instructions don’t apply to Mary?
2 And convince some, who doubt; 23 save some, by snatching them out of the fire; on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Jude 22-23

Where does it say it is ok for Paul to magnify his own ministry to save people, but Mary can’t?
I magnify my ministry 14 in order to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. Rom 11:13-15

Are these prayers though endorsed by the church?

They are permitted/not prohibited.

Why stop with Mary saying yes? Its just as much true that her parents are share also in this by being her parents.

Not really. Her parents were not asked to be the Mother of God.

Without them and the way they must have raised her to be a godly woman she would not have been fit to be the mother of Christ.

This is true, which is why we honor them with their own feast day!

  Below is the last part of a prayer to the Efficacious Novena to the Sacred Heart of Jesus:

O Sacred Heart of Jesus, for whom it is impossible not to have compassion on the afflicted, have pity on us miserable sinners and grant us the grace which we ask of you, **through the Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, your tender Mother and ours. **Say the Hail, Holy Queen and add: St. Joseph, foster father of Jesus, pray for us.

Again we see unbiblical doctrines being inserted into this prayer. We also see Mary being put on the same level as Christ.
What do you think?

I think that something is truly wrong with your mind, if you think that Mary is on the same level as Christ. Do you really not understand that she is a CREATURE and not GOD?!?! if you cant understand that, I don’t see how anyone here can help you. It would be better if you go over to CARM, tell them that you see Mary being put on the same level as Christ, and let them straighten you out.

 

[guanophore]

Are these devotions based on truth? For example on one of the scapulars there is a promise that if a person follows it and is wearing it the day he dies he will be set free of purgatory on the first Saturday after his death.
If this is true, then don’t you think the catholic church should mandate this for all catholics since all who practice this devotion would be in purgatory for a short time?

This promise was made in a private revelation and therefore, by definintion, not binding on everyone, such as something from a public revelation. For example, the Scriptures are considered public revelation, so when Jesus says
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."John 6:53-54

it is considered binding on all christians.

That may be but is it not true that the catholic church believes these things to be true?

The Church recognizes that, though public revelation ceased with the death of the last Apostle, private revelation has continued to the present day. The Church is charged with preserving and teaching the Gospel of Jesus.

i know the catholic church says this but when you look at all the literature you will find that Mary is indeed taking the place of the HS.

You are making a distinction that does not exist. Mary, as all of us are called to do, participates with the HS in the ministry of Jesus.

i also know i am not taking this stuff out of context. This stuff is not some great mystery or that you need to be a catholic to understand it. Words have meanings and almost everyone here can understand the contexts for things written.

You ARE taking them out of context, ja4. Just like the scriptures, the context of these private devotions is the Catholic Church. They don’t take the place of the Gospel of Jesus, but participate in it. For some reason you separate them out, and think they function in a vacuum, apart from the formal teaching of the Church that salvation is by grace through faith by the blood of Jesus.

Do you see how catholic doctrine plays out here?

No. I thought we were talking about devotions.

Being catholic doesn’t give one any extra insight into catholic doctrines. Reading what the church teaches and devotional material is adequate to understand this. The problem is the Scriptures. If catholics understood clearly what the scriptures teach about prayer and worship and compared this with these devotions they would see a conflict.

Yes, being Catholic does give extra insight. I say this because Catholics, being free of the confines of the Sola Scriptura doctrine, are able to understand what the scriptures teach in the light of the Gospel committed to the apostles and transmitted through succession. Therefore, there is no conflict.

I understand this. However, it is making claims about her that are only true of God. Again it gets back to what the scriptures teach about how we are to approach God. All approaches (prayer) is done only through Christ and God. This method is more than sufficent to gain access for us because of what Christ has done.
See Ephesians 3:12 and Hebrews 4:15-16. These promises alone rules out any need for Mary or any saint who has died and supposedly can hear your prayers.

God allows us to participate in His ministry. However, if you do not want to be part of God’s great plan of salvation, this is your choice. Unfortunately, there is only one Church, One Body, One Bride, and therefore, if you are not to deny Christ, you are a member of His One Body, which is the Church. You can be an inadequately attached and functioning member, if that is your choice.

 

[guanophore]

Howerver, when you study the marian devotional material that is endorsed by the catholic church, a person can easily conclude that she is some kind of goddess. The church may not intend this but the evidence is there. If you haven’t already, read the Glories of Mary and see how Saint Ligori presents her.

It does give a glimpse into God’s plan for all of us to participate so fully in the HS.

Not only that, they are totally unnecessary since Christ alone is sufficent.

This is actually more unbiblical than asking others to pray for you. This “Christ alone” mentality is NOT something Jesus EVER taught. It is a Protestant effort to deny the communion of saints.

“As it is, there are many parts, yet one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 On the contrary, the parts of the body which seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and those parts of the body which we think less honorable we invest with the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, 25 that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.”

What you are doing is saying “I have no need of the Womb”. “Jesus alone is good enough for me.” This is unbiblical.

Couple of things here. I think it has been demonstrated that the scriptures don’t teach a communication between those who have died=sleep and the living here. In fact I Thessalonians 4:13-17 which speaks of believers who have died as being asleep.–
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him **those who have fallen asleep **in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

This passage alone destroys any idea of some kind communication going on between us and them who died-sleep. Keep in mind that when a person is asleep they are totally unaware of the world.

This passage describes how our souls will be reunited with our bodies. It does not say communication does not occur during sleep. People who are asleep are just more aware of the inner world than the outer, is all. If you don’t know that, you must not remember any of your dreams.

The context is not about prayer but an actual appearance by Moses to Jesus.

That is all we are doing at prayer, ja4, is having conversation with those who have gone before us in the faith.

In this case its not that Tabitha herself was able to “hear” Peter speak but that Peter was given the power to raise her from the dead. Also, the scriptures don’t present this as some kind of prayer either.

No, she was “dead” and Peter spoke to her, and she came back. This is all we mean by “prayer” to the saints, is that we converse with them, and we don’t consider them out of range, just as Tabitha was not.

 

[guanophore]

In the case of Moses appearing to Jesus this was a very unique event that God allowed. Jesus was not praying to Moses but was actually conversing with him.

Where does it say that in scripture? What makes you think it was so unique? How do you know it does not happen often? Don’t tell me it is because it is not written, either, because many things are not written. We don’t know how many times Jesus may have conversed with Moses and Elijah, since we dont’ have it all in writing.

People that are asleep are unaware of the world. Correct?

Incorrect.

What Saul did was it something that God approved of? Was going through a medium something that he should have done?

Whether Saul disobeyed God or not, what we do see is that Samual did appear, by the grace of God, and he knew exactly what was going on with Saul. He gave him a prophesy relating to his immediate circumstances. This is the same thing that the other Saints do.

Secondly, even this passage in I Samuel would also be an exception by God. No writer of the OT uses this text as some kind of support for praying to those who have died. This would have been an excellent passage to use to support praying to the deceased with the belief they can hear your prayers. The fact is that it is never used this way in scripture.

We don’t see this as an “excellent passage” for that because God strictly forbids the use of mediums and soothsayers. Instead, if God allows a saint to manifiest, it is His grace that we depend upon, and not our human or diabolical methods.

However, was He praying to them? Were they invisible to Him and the apostles? Is this passage used as a “prayer” text in the NT?

This is what is happening when we say “pray”. It is a conversation. No, I don’t know of any that use this as a “prayer” text.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

This for those Non-Catholic Christian (Protestants) who have little or no knowledge of what Catholic devotions and disciplines are. In many cases, they confused devotions and discipline equal to Catholic doctrine and dogma (deposit of faith). They aren’t the same.

I won’t discuss Catholic doctrine and dogmas here since that we already have a thread on that subject.

First let us define what devotions and disciplines are.

Catholic Devotions are prayer forms which are not part of the official public liturgy of the Church but are part of the popular spiritual practices of Catholics. Many are officially sanctioned by the Church as profitable for spiritual growth but not necessary for salvation. Often devotions in the Church take the form of formalized prayers, sacred objects or sacred images that arise from private revelations, or personal religious experiences of individuals such as apparitions of Mary or of Christ. Catholic devotions also include the veneration of the saints.

Examples of devotions are the Chaplet of Divine Mercy based on the private Revelation of St. Faustina (who was visited by Jesus Christ), the rosary, the St. Michael Chaplet, Novenas like Sacred Heart of Jesus, scapular, etc.

Devotions help the Catholic faithful to strengthen their faith and promotes a greater love of a prayful life to God. Devotions are not required by the Catholic Church to practice. It is up to the individual whether or not these devotions are fruitful.

Catholic Disciples are rites or practices such as the language of the Mass. These can change over time. Catholic discipline include priestly celibacy, liturgical rites, and so forth. Disciplines also include Canonical Laws like the Code of Canon Law, which can change if need be (Correct me if I’m wrong).

I hope this helps a little.

It really does not matter if they are the same, when a “practice” is destestable to the LORD.

Deuteronomy 18:9
Detestable Practices ] When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there.
Deuteronomy 18:8-10 (in Context) Deuteronomy 18 (Whole Chapter)
Deuteronomy 18:12
Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.
Deuteronomy 18:11-13 (in Context) Deuteronomy 18 (Whole Chapter)
Deuteronomy 20:18
Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.
Deuteronomy 20:17-19 (in Context) Deuteronomy 20 (Whole Chapter)
Deuteronomy 24:4
then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD. Do not bring sin upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;2818164]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
In the case of Moses appearing to Jesus this was a very unique event that God allowed. Jesus was not praying to Moses but was actually conversing with him.
guanophore
Where does it say that in scripture? What makes you think it was so unique? How do you know it does not happen often? Don’t tell me it is because it is not written, either, because many things are not written. We don’t know how many times Jesus may have conversed with Moses and Elijah, since we dont’ have it all in writing.

Is it not true when a person prays they are conversing with something that is invisible to the eye?
Do any other writers use this event as a description or teaching on prayer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
People that are asleep are unaware of the world. Correct?
guanophore
Incorrect.

You mean when you are in a deep sleep you can hear conservations of your next door neighbors in a state of sleep?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
What Saul did was it something that God approved of? Was going through a medium something that he should have done?
guanophore
Whether Saul disobeyed God or not, what we do see is that Samual did appear, by the grace of God, and he knew exactly what was going on with Saul. He gave him a prophesy relating to his immediate circumstances. This is the same thing that the other Saints do.

Would you happen to have an example of this? I wasn’t aware that when a catholic prays to a saint that saint is able to communicate back to the person here and is aware of the circumstances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Secondly, even this passage in I Samuel would also be an exception by God. No writer of the OT uses this text as some kind of support for praying to those who have died. This would have been an excellent passage to use to support praying to the deceased with the belief they can hear your prayers. The fact is that it is never used this way in scripture.
guanophore
We don’t see this as an “excellent passage” for that because God strictly forbids the use of mediums and soothsayers. Instead, if God allows a saint to manifiest, it is His grace that we depend upon, and not our human or diabolical methods.

Does this same kind of thing happen today for catholics when they pray to saints?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
However, was He praying to them? Were they invisible to Him and the apostles? Is this passage used as a “prayer” text in the NT?
guanophore
This is what is happening when we say “pray”. It is a conversation. No, I don’t know of any that use this as a “prayer” text.

Then this is really not about prayer but something else entirely.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;2818123]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Howerver, when you study the marian devotional material that is endorsed by the catholic church, a person can easily conclude that she is some kind of goddess. The church may not intend this but the evidence is there. If you haven’t already, read the Glories of Mary and see how Saint Ligori presents her.
guanophore
It does give a glimpse into God’s plan for all of us to participate so fully in the HS.

Have you read the Glories of Mary? There is also another devotional work by De Mont or something like this. These works are absolutely amazing in what they say. Are you open to discuss them?

 

[Protestant101]

I take it then that you believe rudeness (which I don’t agree Manny was showing) should be answered with rudeness. But didn’t Jesus tell us to turn the other cheek?

Manny and I both explained why this thread was started: to give another poster the chance to continue a discussion, even though he disagrees with Manny. I see nothing rude whatsoever in this thread’s opening post.

LOL; where is your “other cheek?”

I don’t see it as “wrong” to disagree; but I do see two sides to all of this type of posturing.

To me, IMHO, I think that “disciplines” and the like can be beneficial; under the right criteria.

Even with just talking about my own; (Adventists) I know that in different countries around the world, there are different ways that they each like to worship God. That’s not a concept that I have a problem with, be it Protestants or Catholics.

I would, however, agree with one or two of the other posters who expressed concerns regarding any “discipline” which indeed does defy Bible doctrine.

Therefore, if some of the non-Catholics here had a concern about a “discipline” that involved the participant talking to “Mary” and saying things to her that we feel would not be Biblical; why would the OP here in this topic wish to NOT discuss it somewhat?

Perhaps he would do better to explain to us differences and things in common with “disciplines” and “novenas?” These kinds of terms are Greek to us, and likely to some Catholics too; I don’t know. But lets actually try to talk about the subject area which the OP has brought up. I agree that it could be a good idea if we all keep ourselves from trying to read the other person’s emotions or intentions. Our Catholic friends here should know that Protestants will usually listen to a good Bible explanation of the points being made about anything - including “disciplines.”

Can you think of some ways that specific Bible texts would support a given spiritual "discipline?

I would be quite interested to hear more about it.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;2818123]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Not only that, they are totally unnecessary since Christ alone is sufficent.

This is actually more unbiblical than asking others to pray for you. This “Christ alone” mentality is NOT something Jesus EVER taught. It is a Protestant effort to deny the communion of saints.

You don’t understand protestant doctrine on this issue. Protestants constantly pray for each other. What we don’t agree with catholics on is this idea that people who have died are also to be prayed to. That is an unbiblical pactice which has no foundation in scripture.

guanophore
“As it is, there are many parts, yet one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 On the contrary, the parts of the body which seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and those parts of the body which we think less honorable we invest with the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, 25 that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.”

What is the context in Romans that where this is said? What preceded these verses?

In the context itself in this chapter 8, where is Paul speaking of those who have died?

What you are doing is saying “I have no need of the Womb”. “Jesus alone is good enough for me.” This is unbiblical.

When it comes to prayer and worship Jesus alone is sufficent. However He has so designed the church here that we are to encourage each other and pray for each other. Nowhere in scripture is anyone to pray to a created being.All prayers are only to be prayed to God.

 

[Mannyfit75]

It really does not matter if they are the same, when a “practice” is destestable to the LORD.

On Devotion:

So you are saying that calling Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you (taken from Luke 1:28) and Elizabeth’s own greeting in Luke 1:42 “blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!” is detestable to the Lord? Gabriel said this from his own lips, and Elizabeth proclaim those words when she was filled with the Holy Spirit.

or how about the Divine Mercy Chaplet, which is a very Popular Catholic Devotion, which states,

"Eternal Father, I offer you the Body, and Blood, Soul of Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ in Atonement for Our Sins and those of the whole world." in the large bead of the rosary, and on the 10 beads, we say,

"For the sake, of His Sorrowful, Passion. Have mercy on Us and On the Whole World."

Oh, my friend. I hardly think these words are detestable to God. They aren’t my friend.

On Discipline:

Disciplines such as celibacy in the Latin Rite priesthood, is recommend by Paul and it isn’t condemned.

Matt. 19:10-12 - Jesus says **celibacy is a gift from God **and whoever can bear it should bear it. Jesus praises and recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church. Because celibacy is a gift from God, those who criticize the Church’s practice of celibacy are criticizing God and this wonderful gift He bestows on His chosen ones.

The disciple said to him, “If such is any case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry.” But he said to them, “Not all men can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been made from eunuch by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it.”

Matt. 19:29 - Jesus says that whoever gives up children for the sake of His name will receive a hundred times more and will inherit eternal life. Jesus praises celibacy when it is done for the sake of His kingdom.

And everyone who has left a house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive hundred folds, and inherit eternal life.

Matt. 22:30 - Jesus explains that in heaven there are no marriages. To bring about Jesus’ kingdom on earth, priests live the heavenly consecration to God by not taking a wife in marriage. This way, priests are able to focus exclusively on the spiritual family, and not have any additional pressures of the biological family (which is for the vocation of marriage). This also makes it easier for priests to be transferred to different parishes where they are most needed without having to worry about the impact of their transfer on wife and children.

And Jesus answered them, "You are wrong, because you do know neither the scripture nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

 

[justasking4]

So you are saying that calling Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you (taken from Luke 1:28) and Elizabeth’s own greeting in Luke 1:42 “blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!” is detestable to the Lord? Gabriel said this from his own lips, and Elizabeth proclaim those words when she was filled with the Holy Spirit.

or how about the Divine Mercy Chaplet, which is a very Popular Catholic Devotion, which states,

"Eternal Father, I offer you the Body, and Blood, Soul of Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ in Atonement for Our Sins and those of the whole world." in the large bead of the rosary, and on the 10 beads, we say,

"For the sake, of His Sorrowful, Passion. Have mercy on Us and On the Whole World."

Oh, my friend. I hardly think these words are detestable to God. They aren’t my friend.

What should we think of this quote from the Glories of Mary:
Mary Is Our Life:
She Obtains Pardon for Our Sins

JUST as the soul gives life to the body, so grace gives life to the soul. And so our Lady, obtaining grace for sinners through her intercession, brings back life to their souls.

They who find me find life, and win favor from the Lord (Prv. 8:35). All you who hunger for the Kingdom of God, honor the most Blessed Virgin Mary and you will find life and eternal salvation. 12

St. Bernardine of Siena says that the reason why God did not destroy the human race after the first sin was His singular love for this holy Virgin, who was eventually to be born of the race.

Indeed, he says, all the mercies granted under the old dispensation were no doubt granted only in consideration of this most Blessed Lady.

Is this something that would be destable before God?

 

[Mannyfit75]

What should we think of this quote from the Glories of Mary?

What do you think about this passage from the Bible?

Blessed are you, daughter; by the Most High God, above all the women on earth; and blessed be the Lord God, who created the heavens and the earth, who has guided you to strike the head of the leaders of our enemies. (Judith 13:18-19)

JUST as the soul gives life to the body, so grace gives life to the soul. And so our Lady, obtaining grace for sinners through her intercession, brings back life to their souls.

The BVM obtain grace from God. God allows certain individuals to receive his grace. His graces flow from his followers and from their followers to those who want to received God’s grace. Grace itself does not come from Mary but from God, the source of all grace.

]They who find me find life, and win favor from the Lord (Prv. 8:35). All you who hunger for the Kingdom of God, honor the most Blessed Virgin Mary and you will find life and eternal salvation

Nothing wrong here. I find the similiarity of this saying from Judith 13:18-19. Seek the Virgin Mary, she will point you to her son. For she had said, “Do whatever He tells you.”

St. Bernardine of Siena says that the reason why God did not destroy the human race after the first sin was His singular love for this holy Virgin, who was eventually to be born of the race.

Indeed, he says, all the mercies granted under the old dispensation were no doubt granted only in consideration of this most Blessed Lady.

God love Mary and have chosen her to be the Mother of God’s only Begotten Son. The human was spared because a woman took part of our salvation history. When she consented, the Word became flesh and dwell amongst us. Jesus, the same yesterday, today, and forever.

and to answer your question. No it does not displease God. Second how would you know if it displeases God? Does any honor to any of his faithful servants (all the saints in heaven to include Mary), say anything that is displeasing to the Lord?