Henry VIII and the Anglican Church

  • Thread starter Thread starter Stuckinavortex
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Remember that I’ve been interested in this for over 15 years. And it is a complicated story. Whether the Levitical Prohibition (which impeded a valid marriage, if it was applicable) was dispensable was a subject that was up in the air, in Henry’s day. The subject had been decided both ways. And I’ve often posted here on it. For example:

The question (in Henry’s causa) was whether the Pope could dispense from the Levitical Prohibition, or no. That is, was it Divine, or Church law (and, if Divine, was there a possible provision to permit dispensing). It was a question that had been argued for some time, beginning with a case heard and argued for Bernard, Count of Armaganc, before Clement VII (not the Clement of Henry’s day, the first of the Avignonese Popes), in 1392. Clement looked at, and turned down, opinions of the jurist John Andreae, and the arguments of John Dun Scotus, that only direct line marriages (consanguinity) were thus prohibited. The ruling in this case was against Bernard, who, like Henry, was looking at a case of marrying his older brother’s widow. The impediment was considered Divine, and the claim of expediency was not allowed, to dispense

The next case was before John XXIII; the Pisan Pope. Prima facie, it appeared that it also could not be dispensed. It touches on two points in the tale of Henry’s own Great Matter. First, that Hank hung his hat on the Leviticial prohibition, that is, that marrying his brother’s widow fell within the degrees prohibited in Leviticus, and was ultra vires, beyond the power of the Pope to dispense. And two, that the rules and interpretations on this and on other such matters were constantly changing.

So, in 1410. John XXIII, was visited by two English gentlemen of nobility/royalty, sons of Henry IV: Henry, Prince of Wales , and Thomas, his brother, Duke of Clarence. They had a little problem they wanted the Pope to straighten out. Thomas, D of C, was enamored of a certain lady, one Margaret Holland. Trouble was that she and Thomas had a couple of impediments in the way (as was the usual case), of consanguinity and of affinity. The impediment of consanguinity was no big deal, but that of affinity looked to be. In brief, Margaret was the widow of John Beaufort, Earl of Somerset. Who was the brother of Henry IV. That is, Thomas was seeking to marry the widow of his father’s brother. Which fell within the Church’s reading, at the time, of the degrees impeded by the Levitical Prohibition, and which was of divine provenance. John turned, as was the custom, to a legal adviser (Peter of Ancarano, who followed Andreae’s reasoning) whose consilium said that, for weighty reasons, the Pope could dispense the impediment. John did so, which was a precedent setting decision, as of 1411. So, Thomas and Margaret, aunt and nephew, became husband and wife, in 1412. In doing so, she became as far as was known) the first woman in Christendom to marry legitimately within the declared Levitical degrees, with a dispensation, the thing that Henry asserted, in his causa, was ultra vires.

But there was another issue in the case. An undispensed impediment of the justice of public honesty.

Henry’s stronger case, as Cardinal Wolsey saw, lay in a class of impediments called the justice of public honesty. Without getting into technical details, this meant that if a marriage was contracted and consummated between A and B, two actual types of impediments might arise for person C later wishing to marry A or B. That is, there was the potential for an impediment of affinity, which arose from the the consummation of the marriage, or of the justice of public honesty, which arose from the betrothal/marriage contract.

At the time, the rule was that if a valid marriage was contracted, and consummated, and later a dispensation was sought for some one who would have an impediment to marrying A or B, the dispensation need only specifically state that the affinity impediment was dispensed, and the impediment of public honesty was thereby dispensed, implicitly. But, if the marriage was not consummated, as Catherine and her duenna maintained all along, and as was likely true, then the justice of public honesty must be explicitly dispensed. Julius didn’t do that. And hence there was a good case for Henry.

The issue was not whether there had been a dispensation from Julius for Henry to marry Catherine, but, rather, was it a valid one, or was it ultra vires. Was the impediment Divine or Church law? and did the Pope possess the authority of expediency to dispense some Divine impediments; if so was this one? The point had been decided both ways, historically. Implicitly, was there still an unresolved impediment of the justice of public honesty. Likely. A case that might have gone either way. What tipped it was the daunting figure of Charles V, and the irresolute figure of Clement VII. Theology and politics, working together, for an answer.

Some of that I’ve posted above, #76, to which I refer you.

Point being: there certainly was an impediment with respect to the Levitical Prohibition in Henry’s day, and the question of whether it was a diriment one, or one that a Pope could dispense, had been decided both ways. And then there was another lurking undispensed impediment, in the question of public honesty.

None of which is to say that Henry had a slam-dunk case. But he had one as good as normally was found in such cases.

The history is far more complex than even suggested here, so far. Particularly as to how the system was structured to accommodate dynastic marriages. History is often like that.

Kelly’s MATRIMONIAL TRIALS OF HENRY VIII is recommended, as is Scarisbrick’s bio, already mentioned.
 
Picky picky point that makes no difference: John Beaufort E of Somerset was the half brother of Henry IV. Illegitimate but later legitimised. It was from Beaufort that Henry VIII’s father derived his rather shaky dynastic claim to the throne.
 
Picky picky point that makes no difference: John Beaufort E of Somerset was the half brother of Henry IV. Illegitimate but later legitimised. It was from Beaufort that Henry VIII’s father derived his rather shaky dynastic claim to the throne.
Ah, fudge. And that’s been a tale told I’ve told for years, with that oops in it. My source, back when, referred to the sons of Henry IV; I completely forgot John of Gaunt and his variable relation with Katherine Swynford, and the original status of all their offspring. As I have forgotten where the book on that lady might be. I cut this from my original as posted above, where I was emphasizing the irony, and Henry’s lineage, the shakiness of which was a prime motivator for Hank’s frantic search for a legitimate male heir:

“The name of Beaufort might be familiar. It certainly was to Henry VIII. Margaret’s son, by the earlier marriage to John Beaufort, Earl of Somerset, John Beaufort, Duke of Somerset, was the father of Margaret, Countess of Richmond, mother of Henry VII. Grandmother of Henry VIII”.

Many thanks. It is always good to learn stuff, even if it’s where I stumbled.

 
The Church of England initially was the catholic Church with virtually all the Bishops agreeing to (not St. John Fisher)-Henry needed a male heir-and he kept trying till he fathered Edward the VI-all of this occurred in the time frame of the Reformation-Henry likely had no plans to start “another Church” -Politics - Power and Money were the issues of the day
The point here is that if any Catholic Bishops agreed to Henry’s move for a son out of original wedlock, and especially if they agreed to it at any cost, then they too were guilty of heresy. As was Henry. So the Anglican Church may be Christian, but it certainly is not Catholic. Whether a schism was the initial plan or not, if it happened that way, then a schism it was. And what more could one expect as a consequence of murder. And those who said nothing were either cowards - which is understandable - or complicit in murder and schism. It is that simple. Look at the state of the Anglican Church today and count its fruit. It maybe contains Christians, but not Catholics - not if they embrace their heritage.
 
The point here is that if any Catholic Bishops agreed to Henry’s move for a son out of original wedlock, and especially if they agreed to it at any cost, then they too were guilty of heresy. As was Henry. So the Anglican Church may be Christian, but it certainly is not Catholic. Whether a schism was the initial plan or not, if it happened that way, then a schism it was. And what more could one expect as a consequence of murder. And those who said nothing were either cowards - which is understandable - or complicit in murder and schism. It is that simple. Look at the state of the Anglican Church today and count its fruit. It maybe contains Christians, but not Catholics - not if they embrace their heritage.
I wish I could see history from 500 years ago as “that simple”. But the murder — which murder was that?
 
The point here is that if any Catholic Bishops agreed to Henry’s move for a son out of original wedlock, and especially if they agreed to it at any cost, then they too were guilty of heresy. As was Henry. So the Anglican Church may be Christian, but it certainly is not Catholic. Whether a schism was the initial plan or not, if it happened that way, then a schism it was. And what more could one expect as a consequence of murder. And those who said nothing were either cowards - which is understandable - or complicit in murder and schism. It is that simple. Look at the state of the Anglican Church today and count its fruit. It maybe contains Christians, but not Catholics - not if they embrace their heritage.
I believe the term Catholic lite is used a lot or as Robin Williams said - Catholic without the guilt! 😃

they are not Catholic as far as being under Papal authority, but their worship service is very similar to the Mass.
 
Ah, fudge. And that’s been a tale told I’ve told for years, with that oops in it. My source, back when, referred to the sons of Henry IV; I completely forgot John of Gaunt and his variable relation with Katherine Swynford, and the original status of all their offspring. As I have forgotten where the book on that lady might be. I cut this from my original as posted above, where I was emphasizing the irony, and Henry’s lineage, the shakiness of which was a prime motivator for Hank’s frantic search for a legitimate male heir:

“The name of Beaufort might be familiar. It certainly was to Henry VIII. Margaret’s son, by the earlier marriage to John Beaufort, Earl of Somerset, John Beaufort, Duke of Somerset, was the father of Margaret, Countess of Richmond, mother of Henry VII. Grandmother of Henry VIII”.

Many thanks. It is always good to learn stuff, even if it’s where I stumbled.

A pleasure. Incidentally although the Beauforts were legitimised it was not at all certain at the time that this placed them in the line of succession. In fact, of course, one of the grouses of Richard of York, which fed into his rivalry with the Beauforts, and thereby into the Wars of the Roses, was his fear that the Beauforts were being favoured by the king, and that this might lead to their being included in the line of succession ahead of Richard. So Harry Richmond’s claim was very shaky indeed (on succession grounds). In fact effectively his claim to the throne was by right of conquest. All causing problems in the mind of Henry VIII.
 
I believe the term Catholic lite is used a lot or as Robin Williams said - Catholic without the guilt! 😃

they are not Catholic as far as being under Papal authority, but their worship service is very similar to the Mass.
We all need a bit of guilt. It stems from having a conscience. More Churches could do with this. As far as it serves to take us to the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
 
We all need a bit of guilt. It stems from having a conscience. More Churches could do with this. As far as it serves to take us to the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
guilt is part of life. it was part of his comedy routine.
 
A pleasure. Incidentally although the Beauforts were legitimised it was not at all certain at the time that this placed them in the line of succession. In fact, of course, one of the grouses of Richard of York, which fed into his rivalry with the Beauforts, and thereby into the Wars of the Roses, was his fear that the Beauforts were being favoured by the king, and that this might lead to their being included in the line of succession ahead of Richard. So Harry Richmond’s claim was very shaky indeed (on succession grounds). In fact effectively his claim to the throne was by right of conquest. All causing problems in the mind of Henry VIII.
And what of the clause excepta regali dignitate, which I have heard was inserted into the Royal and/or Papal decrees legitimizing the Gaunt offspring, at Henry IV’s instigation. Anything to it?

I’m always off balance in the pre-Henrician stuff, though I try.

Indeed, Henry’s mind was perturbed at the shaky seat he sat on. Red and White roses on the ground, not long before, well remembered. Best and essential solution: legitimate male offspring. As conventional wisdom held.
 
And what of the clause excepta regali dignitate, which I have heard was inserted into the Royal and/or Papal decrees legitimizing the Gaunt offspring, at Henry IV’s instigation. Anything to it?

I’m always off balance in the pre-Henrician stuff, though I try.

Indeed, Henry’s mind was perturbed at the shaky seat he sat on. Red and White roses on the ground, not long before, well remembered. Best and essential solution: legitimate male offspring. As conventional wisdom held.
Excellent! If you’re off-balance I can pretend to know more than I do!

I think the jury is still out on the source and legitimacy (as it were) of excepta regali dignitate. And whatever its source it could not have been decisive. The fact is there were no agreed rules about how succession worked. What did one do with a king who had lost his wits (e.g. Henry VI)? Was it ever OK to depose a king? (if not, bad news for Henry IV, Edward IV, Richard III, Henry VII). Could an illegitimate line ever be made legitimate for royal succession purposes? Could a king decide his own successor? (it was thought possible: it was after all Edward VI’s will that put the crown on poor, in many ways admirable, Jane Grey. Not to mention the case of the horrible William I).

Could the crown pass down a female line? (If “no”, the Yorkist descendants of Edmund of Langley trumped Henry VII’s Lancastrians; if “yes”, the Yorkist descendants of Philippa of Clarence trumped all the Lancastrians). Could the crown be held by a woman? (If so, the rightful heir was Elizabeth of York). Could a man wear the crown in right of his wife? (Quite possibly, but Henry VII deliberately refused that route, being, despite his promises, crowned before he married, and waiting to be presented with a male heir before his wife was crowned his queen). All very fluid. Nothing like winning a battle to cut through all that legalistic red tape.

In a way, Henry VII was in a rather similar position to William III, but without the assurance that Parliament decides.
 
Excellent! If you’re off-balance I can pretend to know more than I do!

I think the jury is still out on the source and legitimacy (as it were) of excepta regali dignitate. And whatever its source it could not have been decisive. The fact is there were no agreed rules about how succession worked. What did one do with a king who had lost his wits (e.g. Henry VI)? Was it ever OK to depose a king? (if not, bad news for Henry IV, Edward IV, Richard III, Henry VII). Could an illegitimate line ever be made legitimate for royal succession purposes? Could a king decide his own successor? (it was thought possible: it was after all Edward VI’s will that put the crown on poor, in many ways admirable, Jane Grey. Not to mention the case of the horrible William I).

Could the crown pass down a female line? (If “no”, the Yorkist descendants of Edmund of Langley trumped the Lancastrians; if “yes”, the Yorkist descendants of Philippa of Clarence trumped the Lancastrians). Could the crown be held by a woman? (If so, the rightful heir was Elizabeth of York). Could a man wear the crown in right of his wife? (Quite possibly, but Henry VII deliberately refused that route, being, despite his promises, crowned before he married, and waiting to be presented with a male heir before his wife was crowned his queen). All very fluid. Nothing like winning a battle to cut through all that legalistic red tape.

In a way, Henry VII was in a rather similar position to William III, but without the assurance that Parliament decides.
Putting this in the file. Must ponder it.

The English history on the shelves here extends rather beyond the Tudors and I need to dig into it. This sort of ponderables and possibles about history, details, texture and context, is precisely what attracted me to Hank in the forst place.

I salute your knowledge. Thank you.
 
Putting this in the file. Must ponder it.

The English history on the shelves here extends rather beyond the Tudors and I need to dig into it. This sort of ponderables and possibles about history, details, texture and context, is precisely what attracted me to Hank in the forst place.

I salute your knowledge. Thank you.
Ta. I’ve corrected the bit about passing through the female line. If that were impossible Edmund of Langley’s Yorkist descendants would not have trumped Henry IV, V or VI, but they would have trumped Henry VII.
 
It’s a puzzle. The great William Tyndale, perhaps?
Don’t you realize that only if the other side does it is it’s murder.

If “our” side does it, it’s a regrettable thing that we wouldn’t do now but that good people understandably did then given the culture and given how awful the other side was.

Or it didn’t happen at all, or our guys didn’t do it if it did.

Edwin
 
Don’t you realize that only if the other side does it is it’s murder.

If “our” side does it, it’s a regrettable thing that we wouldn’t do now but that good people understandably did then given the culture and given how awful the other side was.

Or it didn’t happen at all, or our guys didn’t do it if it did.

Edwin
Sorry. Quite right.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top