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crazzeto
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At least the Catholic Church has yet to confuse “treating someone with the dignaty due all human beings” and “tolarance”
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exan
Guest
If you want to treat your gay catholic “brothers” with disrespect and hate in hopes of getting them in heaven, I find it weird, but ok, they choose to go to such a weird church.
Teens are worse because they canot leave. I have talked with my share of gay/lez teens from religious judgemental parents and they are often depressed. But yeah, half of the fundamentalists thinks its a choice, other half thinks its not a choice, they are gay but they should ignore it anyway. Good thing theres less extreme christians too, who are not like that.
Can you and the other fundamentalist christians try to bring up some respect for people who are not in your religion? Like the not-catholics and not catholic gays? Not everyone believes the same, or wants to deal with your judgements and hate. You want respect too, we want respect, but it cannot come from one side.
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Siddhartha
Guest
According to Tradition, Jesus did say something (or rather, he wrote something). From the story of the adulterous woman:
*"Then the legislator of morality and human conduct stooped down to the ground, smoothed out the dust with the palm of His hand, and began to write (John 8:6). What did the Lord write in the dust? The Evangelist maintains silence concerning this and does not write of it. It was too repulsive and vile to be written in the Book of Joy. However, this has been present in tradition, and it is horrible. The Lord wrote something unexpected and startling for the elders, the accusers of the sinful woman. With His finger He disclosed their secret iniquities. For these pointers-out of the sins of others were experts in concealing their own sins. But it is pointless to try to hide anything from the eyes of One Who sees all.
“M (eshulam) has stolen treasures from the temple,” wrote the Lord’s finger in the dust.
"A (sher) has committed adultery with his brother’s wife;
"S (halum) has committed perjury;
"E (led) has struck his own father;
"A (marich) has committed sodomy;
“J (oel) has worshipped idols.”
And so one statement after another was written in the dust by the awesome finger of the righteous Judge. And those to whom these words referred, bending down, read what was written, with inexpressible horror. They trembled from fright, and dared not look one another in the eye. They gave no further thought to the sinful woman. They thought only of themselves and of their own death, which was written in the dust. Not a single tongue was able to move, to pronounce that troublesome and evil question, “What sayest Thou?” The Lord said nothing. That which is so filthy is fit to be written only in filthy dust. Another reason why the Lord wrote on the ground is even greater and more wonderful. That which is written in the dust is easily erased and removed. Christ did not want their sins to be made known to everyone. Had He desired this, He would have announced them before all the people, and would have accused them and had them stoned to death, in accordance with the law. But He, the innocent Lamb of God, did not contemplate revenge or death for those who had prepared for Him a thousand deaths, who desired His death more than everlasting life for themselves. The Lord wanted only to correct them, to make them think of themselves and their own sins. He wanted to remind them that while they carried the burden of their own transgressions, they shouldn’t be strict judges of the transgressions of others. This alone did the Lord desire. And when this was done, the dust was again smoothed over, and that which was written disappeared."*
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Usbek_de_Perse
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uh…again, you do not seem to read my postings carefully.
I wish I could believe homosexual relationship are equal and valid. But I can’t. I employed my use of reason to arrive at what turns out to be an orthodox position.
And if you search my postings, you will see that I early on argued that eunuchs are not the same as homosexuals (as if someone actually needs to be told that).
I am getting the feeling that you really deserve your nickname.
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StrawberryJam
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Exactly where is this tradition from?
This is not in the narrative or in the CCC. Where does it come from? Some Cannonized saints mystical ramblings er, I mean experiences, or some other source?
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Charlotte408
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It is true, that Christ wrote in the sand/dirt, and supposedly that was the only writings of his own…they were supposed to stone an adulteress, but he wrote ‘something’ in the dirt, then looked up and said, ‘now he who is without sin, cast the first stone’
it makes sense that he might of called them each out on their sins. but i dont know where she confirmed that…it deosnt say for sure in the bible…
it makes sense that he might of called them each out on their sins. but i dont know where she confirmed that…it deosnt say for sure in the bible…
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Liraco
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There is nothing in tradition that says what Jesus wrote, that is unknown to us. Catholic tradition anyway.
@Exan: You said “If you want to treat your gay catholic “brothers” with disrespect and hate in hopes of getting them in heaven, I find it weird, but ok, they choose to go to such a weird church.”
Fraternal correction is far from hate, it is done out of love. Read my previous post please. Correcting someone does not mean hating them or disrespecting them, doing so is neither loving nor correcting anything.
@Exan: You said “If you want to treat your gay catholic “brothers” with disrespect and hate in hopes of getting them in heaven, I find it weird, but ok, they choose to go to such a weird church.”
Fraternal correction is far from hate, it is done out of love. Read my previous post please. Correcting someone does not mean hating them or disrespecting them, doing so is neither loving nor correcting anything.
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Siddhartha
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Orthodox Tradition, according to the link.
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kamalayka9
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When our will contradicts God’s will, we call it “sin.” (And likewise, when something contradicts our will, we call it “pain.”)
HERE IS WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS ALWAYS TAUGHT:
Sin is an act of the will. Having homosexual/heterosexual tendencies is not sin, because it is beyond your control. Having a same-sex/opposite-sex orientation is not sin, because, again, it is beyond your control.
HAVING SEX WITH SOMEONE OF THE SAME GENDER IS SIN.
Why? Because. . .
Anything less than procreation within the Sacrament of Marriage is sin (which is why contraceptives, masturbation, and homosexual relations are sin.) During a homosexual act, you remove the main purpose of sex, reproduction, and abuse it solely for pleasure.
Intentionally diminishing or removing the possibility of conception is sin. **THIS APPLIES TO EVERY HUMAN WITHOUT EXCEPTION.
**
It is not possible for two humans of the same gender to procreate. The only reason they would have sex is for pleasure. The only reason a person would masturbate or use a condom is for pleasure.
Just like if I say, “being a murderer is wrong.” I am not condemning the person, I am condemning the ACT. You can’t help it if you are tempted to murder. You **CAN **help it if you decide to act on it.It is not being judgmental or hateful to tell someone that sexual immorality is sin. This applies to every human being on earth, regardless of who you are attracted to.
What exactly *is *judging?Is correcting someone when they do something wrong judging? No.
Now here is the *tricky *part:
If you see someone commit a sin, can you then accuse that person of being guilty of that sin? No!
Why not? Because you do not know if that person truly *is *guilty, even *if *you saw them with your own eyes.
For example, you see a man rob $100 from a store. Was the act itself a sin? Yes. Was that man guilty of the sin?** I don’t know.** Maybe his 8-year-old daughter was being held at gunpoint by a person high on drugs demanding the father to rob the store.
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exan
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I find it disrespectfull, we have a different opinion on that. Also about the definition of “love”.
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kamalayka9
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True love is to love someone, regardless of what they say or do to you.
If that means correcting them, and they resent you for it, then so be it.
The Catholic Church is the truth.
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buffalo
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Ever read CS Lewis’ The Four Loves?
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StrawberryJam
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According to your link, this is one Orthodox man’s mystical interpretation. It is not, Orthodox tradition in the sense you imply.
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Shaken
Guest
I think it should be a term other than marriage. I can certainly see, if a person is not married and is living with a person of the same sex (but not the same family), that perhaps the two of them should have the same privileges as family members when it comes to hospital visitation or notifcation.
What is done in convents, rectories, monasteries? Who is allowed visitation rights and who gets notified in case of death? It is still family, isn’t it.
What is done in convents, rectories, monasteries? Who is allowed visitation rights and who gets notified in case of death? It is still family, isn’t it.
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Shaken
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I don’t mean to impune the orientation of monks and nuns. It is just an example of same sex single persons living together outside of marriage in a long term committed arrangement.
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exan
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I do not call that love. Its the same kind of “love” abusers use to control their victims. We are talking about two consenting adults here who do made a desicion which you do not show respect for. No, you have to interfere, try to control, manipulate, push your opinion in, and get others to feel the same. That does not show much respect for another human beeing, especially if that human beeing has not chosen to follow your choice or religion. Having some respect for another adults desicion shows some respect towards anoters human beeing.
Several here feel their rules and dogmas are true and everyone should follow them, including people who have chosen not to follow this religion. Sorry, I don’t find that showing much respect. Having no respect for anothes opinion which is none of your business, is not respectfull. Its a thing two people do with their own life.
Once again, I have no trouble with the friendly christians, who can show respect for otherminded people too, but someone who shows no respect for those, is a fundamentalist. You have no idea what you cause with your words, how powerfull words are, how much disrespect and words can hurt, especially too young people who are sometimes not even part of your religion. You are suppressing other peoples free choice here, your religion tells you not to judge, but you do judge here, and encourage others to judge too. I am sorry, I cannot follow your reasoning, not do I see any respect from your side. I find some of the opinions on this forum shocking, sorry, love includes having some basic respect to another. If that is not there, its not love. The word has a very different meaning to you than to me.
I will not claim love when I do not mean it, nor do I agree with your definition of love. I don’t force you to follow my atheism in your life, try to take your church away, forbid your books. I can bring up respect for the fact, we disagree on what is sin or not. However, I do not agree with the methods you use, the judgement, manipulation and disrespect you show towards other human beeings. Fundamentalism on any side is not good, and using judement, manipulation and pushing to let others follow your opinion is not good in my eyes.
Rrespect for another, and that includes respecting their opinions and desicions, is key to peace on this word, but it has to come from two sides. It cannot come from one side alone.
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buffalo
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What if two consenting adults want to murder you? Why should they be restricted?
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exan
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This is a not well chosen omparison. Where homosexuals marry, both consent, and your life is not threathented, in fact it does nothing in you life. In your example three people were involved, its about murder, and one did not consent but will be killed without his consent.
Its quite an excageration to compare homosexuality to murder, since noone gets killed if two homosexuals marry or date, worst case scenario you don’t want to see it and attend such a wedding.
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apromisemade
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I am about as staunch a supporter of gay marriage as you will ever find.
But I can respect you and your beliefs because you were honest in stating that they are rooted primarily in your faith and religion.
But I can respect you and your beliefs because you were honest in stating that they are rooted primarily in your faith and religion.
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buffalo
Guest
That is what you want, the license to do what you please, so do I.
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