Here is what I think about homosexuality and Christianity

[benidict]

Believe it or not I actually agree with you, partly at least. There are already non-religious straight couples who might, for example, get married on a hilltop and have their vows read by a justice of the peace and then have their marriage recognized just by the state. I see absolutely no reason why gay couples should not be afforded the same opportunity. However as far as being married by a priest and having their marriage recognized by a Church and all that good stuff, to mean that’s a whole different ballgame that muddles in the issue of religious freedom and such.

As far as sueing someone for refusing to provide photography services to a gay couple? I would only have one question for the woman. How does she know she hasn’t provided services to straight couples where one of them was secretly having an affair? Even if you look at it through the lens of “homosexuality is sinful,” that to me is singleing out one sin over a multitude of others.

ok, good im glad we agree on some of this then. that is a good basis for discussion on this. i personally am divorced. to even be able to join the Catholic Church, i had to get an annulment. i am a heterosexual. i love women. not going to lie. but be that as it may, i have resolved that i am not going to get remarried. no desire to. so does that mean i can take on a female partner, and even secretly carry on a relationship that is not within the bounds set up by the Church? no it does not. its a matter of integrety. i not only do harm to myself, but harm to my partner. anytime we step out of the teachings of the Church and the bible we taint ourselves and those around us. its called sin. maybe to those like you of the more liberal persuasion that does not mean a whole lot. but to many of us it does. i have a pattern of behavior i must follow to remain in communion with Christ and His Church. is personal satisfaction worth your soul? or even the temporal consequenses of disease and such. im under the same rules as someone who is not straight. i must remain celebate. so i do not see any discrimination here. peace be with you.

 

[apromisemade]

ok, good im glad we agree on some of this then. that is a good basis for discussion on this. i personally am divorced. to even be able to join the Catholic Church, i had to get an annulment. i am a heterosexual. i love women. not going to lie. but be that as it may, i have resolved that i am not going to get remarried. no desire to. so does that mean i can take on a female partner, and even secretly carry on a relationship that is not within the bounds set up by the Church? no it does not. its a matter of integrety. i not only do harm to myself, but harm to my partner. anytime we step out of the teachings of the Church and the bible we taint ourselves and those around us. its called sin. maybe to those like you of the more liberal persuasion that does not mean a whole lot. but to many of us it does. i have a pattern of behavior i must follow to remain in communion with Christ and His Church. is personal satisfaction worth your soul? or even the temporal consequenses of disease and such. im under the same rules as someone who is not straight. i must remain celebate. so i do not see any discrimination here. peace be with you.

I myself, though I am not Catholic, have chosen not to have sex unless I get married. So I can completely respect someone chosing to remain celibate for such a reason. However, my mother was in a relationship with my sort-of-stepfather for almost 15 years after she divorced my father. She had just as much right, as a productive and responsible human being in a free society, to chose to be in a committed relationship with someone as you do to chose abstinence in the place of getting remarried.

I completely understand the idea that she was tainting her soul by doing that, but do I think anyone has the right to make it illegal for her to do it? Absolutely not. Besides, if someone is refraining from sin just because they are being forced to, does it really mean anything?

 

[benidict]

I myself, though I am not Catholic, have chosen not to have sex unless I get married. So I can completely respect someone chosing to remain celibate for such a reason. However, my mother was in a relationship with my sort-of-stepfather for almost 15 years after she divorced my father. She had just as much right, as a productive and responsible human being in a free society, to chose to be in a committed relationship with someone as you do to chose abstinence in the place of getting remarried.

I completely understand the idea that she was tainting her soul by doing that, but do I think anyone has the right to make it illegal for her to do it? Absolutely not. Besides, if someone is refraining from sin just because they are being forced to, does it really mean anything?

i feel for you. and i pray for you. and im sorry you came from a broken home. i myself didnt have it all that great the first few years of my life either. and im happy to hear you are waiting to get married. before my conversion, i lived like your mother. my longest live in relationship was only 2 years tho. so i can empathize. and im also glad you had a male figure in your life after your father left. and yes she does have that right in a free society to do just as she sees fit in this area. but i dont think its fear of hell or being forced to refrain from sin that keeps me celabate. its the freedom i have as an individual to live my life without haveing to please anyone but my Heavenly Father. i dont see what this has to do with a homosexual union tho. not even the homosexual community sees themselves as equal to heterosexuals. they want special rights. not equal rights. and as it stands they have equal rights. i can marry a woman, they can marry a woman. a woman can marry a man. a lesbian can marry a man. how is their right to marriage being (name removed by moderator)uned. also your mother was never violating a law by cohabitating. nobody ever said it was illegal. she could have married her live in boyfriend at any time. apparently they did not want that kind of commitment. so i dont see how your mothers case is in anyway similar to the argument for homosexual marraige.peace.

 

[emeraldcoast]

ok, good im glad we agree on some of this then. that is a good basis for discussion on this. i personally am divorced. to even be able to join the Catholic Church, i had to get an annulment. i am a heterosexual. i love women. not going to lie. but be that as it may, i have resolved that i am not going to get remarried. no desire to. so does that mean i can take on a female partner, and even secretly carry on a relationship that is not within the bounds set up by the Church? no it does not. its a matter of integrety. i not only do harm to myself, but harm to my partner. anytime we step out of the teachings of the Church and the bible we taint ourselves and those around us. its called sin. maybe to those like you of the more liberal persuasion that does not mean a whole lot. but to many of us it does. i have a pattern of behavior i must follow to remain in communion with Christ and His Church. is personal satisfaction worth your soul? or even the temporal consequenses of disease and such. im under the same rules as someone who is not straight. i must remain celebate. so i do not see any discrimination here. peace be with you.

Oh friend, how many people have you heard after divorce say that they will never marry again…We don’t know what God has in store for us…

Just for clarification…you have received an annulment from the Church, so you are free to remarry? Correct?

God Bless!

 

[apromisemade]

dont see what this has to do with a homosexual union tho. not even the homosexual community sees themselves as equal to heterosexuals. they want special rights. not equal rights. and as it stands they have equal rights. i can marry a woman, they can marry a woman. a woman can marry a man. a lesbian can marry a man. how is their right to marriage being (name removed by moderator)uned. also your mother was never violating a law by cohabitating. nobody ever said it was illegal. she could have married her live in boyfriend at any time. apparently they did not want that kind of commitment. so i dont see how your mothers case is in anyway similar to the argument for homosexual marraige.peace.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that both cohabitating and same sex unions are condemned by the Church, but a person who does not accept the teachings of the Catholic Church in either of these areas should not be forced to do so by civil law.

I’ve heard other Catholics make the argument, “Gay people have every right to do the normal thing marry someone of the opposite sex like I do, what’s stoppint them?”

To which I reply, “You have every right to do the “normal” thing and convert to Protestantism, what’s stopping you?”

I can’t help but wonder that the assertion that gays have equal rights since they are allowed to enter opposite-sex marriages is rooted in the faulty notion that they somehow chose to be gay. Why would you insist that someone get married to a person they’re not in love with? Lots of gay people have tried to force themselves to resist their orientation and marry someone of the opposite sex, which often leads to unhappieness and a bad ending not just for them but for their partner as well.

Suppose me and my boyfriend wanted to get married but interracial marriage was still illegal in this country. Someone could just as easily argue that I wanted special rights and not equal rights by wanting to marry outside of my race and I was perfectly free to marry a white man.

Thank you for your words of sympathy by the way. It was very hard to lose my father even though I was so young and even though my stepdad and I didn’t have a really great relationship, it was hard to lose him to.

 

[benidict]

Oh friend, how many people have you heard after divorce say that they will never marry again…We don’t know what God has in store for us…

Just for clarification…you have received an annulment from the Church, so you are free to remarry? Correct?

God Bless!

hi emerald. lol! yes i could get married again. i simply choose not too. i had to make a choice in the last year and a half. was looking at the monastic life. figured i did not have the discipline to do this, so i joined the Army instead.lol! its very similar in some respects, and i feel i can get the discipline here i need to go further with my spiritual life. its really a good place to mortify the desires of the flesh.(or in some soldiers lives a chance to fulfill them.) at 40 years old this is not easy. the army i mean.lol! but its giving me an excellent groundwork to decide which way i want to go when i get out. deacon, priest? monk? i dont know. but no matter what way i happen to go, i like the idea of being free to serve. and ive been divorced for almost 10 years now. with a few failed engagements to boot. had to learn the hard way. i found out tho that dogs are excellent companions, and i dont have to ask their permission for anything.lol! God bless you and yours

 

[emeraldcoast]

hi emerald. lol! yes i could get married again. i simply choose not too. i had to make a choice in the last year and a half. was looking at the monastic life. figured i did not have the discipline to do this, so i joined the Army instead.lol! its very similar in some respects, and i feel i can get the discipline here i need to go further with my spiritual life. its really a good place to mortify the desires of the flesh.(or in some soldiers lives a chance to fulfill them.) at 40 years old this is not easy. the army i mean.lol! but its giving me an excellent groundwork to decide which way i want to go when i get out. deacon, priest? monk? i dont know. but no matter what way i happen to go, i like the idea of being free to serve. and ive been divorced for almost 10 years now. with a few failed engagements to boot. had to learn the hard way. i found out tho that dogs are excellent companions, and i dont have to ask their permission for anything.lol! God bless you and yours

Oh benidict, I feel better!!lol

Now about the Army part, that is another story…
Go Navy! Beat Army!

God Bless!

 

[benidict]

I guess the point I was trying to make is that both cohabitating and same sex unions are condemned by the Church, but a person who does not accept the teachings of the Catholic Church in either of these areas should not be forced to do so by civil law.

I’ve heard other Catholics make the argument, “Gay people have every right to do the normal thing marry someone of the opposite sex like I do, what’s stoppint them?”

To which I reply, “You have every right to do the “normal” thing and convert to Protestantism, what’s stopping you?”

I can’t help but wonder that the assertion that gays have equal rights since they are allowed to enter opposite-sex marriages is rooted in the faulty notion that they somehow chose to be gay. Why would you insist that someone get married to a person they’re not in love with? Lots of gay people have tried to force themselves to resist their orientation and marry someone of the opposite sex, which often leads to unhappieness and a bad ending not just for them but for their partner as well.

Suppose me and my boyfriend wanted to get married but interracial marriage was still illegal in this country. Someone could just as easily argue that I wanted special rights and not equal rights by wanting to marry outside of my race and I was perfectly free to marry a white man.

Thank you for your words of sympathy by the way. It was very hard to lose my father even though I was so young and even though my stepdad and I didn’t have a really great relationship, it was hard to lose him to.

hi promise. how well i know this. a friend of mine who i grew up with tried to do just this. he was homosexual and got married. it killed him. he could not correlate his faith with his lifestyle and his lifestyle to his marriage and he commited suicide. there are no easy answeres. i will say you wanting to marry outside your race is completley different than to people of the same sex marrying. i used to date interacially myself. and you can prove from the time of moses that this type of bigotry is not tolerate. just look at aaron and mariam when they got on moses for marrying a woman of color. God gave mariam leprosy. she wanted white? she got white.lol! also if you want to use the free society argument, and the Church argument. you have a little bit of a problem. to be a free society, we must set boundaries. these boundaries are called laws, so we can have an orderly existense. when it comes to the Church, they have a right, as private institution to decide on rules of conduct which their members are going to follow. also you may want to read the Catholic Catechism on this issue. they are a lot more tolerant and loving than most of our protestant bretheren. while at the same time not condoning the behavior. but yes there are Christians who do struggle with homosexuatily, just as their are hetrosexual Christians who struggle with extramarrital and premarital sex. these are not condoned by the Church either. sin is sin. but we are human. but it is not the Churches job to bow to our desires. part of the work of the Church is to get us ready to be presented to Christ as and unspotted Bride. also i love california. going to got there for training soon. Love in Christ.

 

[benidict]

Oh benidict, I feel better!!lol

Now about the Army part, that is another story…
Go Navy! Beat Army!

God Bless!

lol! the way my football season just ended… well hopefully my bears do something in the pros!

 

[benidict]

Where do I say dutch white homoseuxals commit suicide at a fare greater rate than the rest of the population in holland. Read my post again plz.

I say homophobia is worse here than it was, since immigrants came here, and their 2nd generation kids do not behave well. The christians in holland are not often orthodox/fundamentalist as I state too.

I say that unacceptance, which for a huge part comes from churches/religion, causes gay suicide, depression etc. Promiscuity is not the cause. The depressed gays more often tend to be the sensitive feminine ones who prefer monogamous relationships than the sex-around ones. You are not gay or bi but off course you think you know it all way better than us self. Right.

Homosexualy does not nessecarily imply promiscuity, main reason gays fck more is because men are easier with sex and open relationships than women. Loads of straight guys I know would love to fck around the same way, if only women would be as willing as gay men. But women are not so easy. Just like straight men, with gay men theres those who would wish to settle down monogamously and those that do not. If your gay you don’t have to lie to your woman, you simply pick a partner that has the same preference for monogamous/not monogamous/sex onlly. Same way I prefer monogamous guys/gals. I don’t see use in open relationships, but if others want them I am cool with it. Everyone their choice.

You don’t understand much of it.

i think you could make your point without use of the f word. it kinda shows a lack of tact and education. is this subject getting you upset? just take a deeeep breath let it ouuuuut. there, dont you feel better? thank you. and have a good day.

 

[apromisemade]

hi promise. how well i know this. a friend of mine who i grew up with tried to do just this. he was homosexual and got married. it killed him. he could not correlate his faith with his lifestyle and his lifestyle to his marriage and he commited suicide. there are no easy answeres.

How tragic. This is why I say that not matter how you feel about gay marriage, gay people in todays society need compassion, not condemnation.

i will say you wanting to marry outside your race is completley different than to people of the same sex marrying. i used to date interacially myself. and you can prove from the time of moses that this type of bigotry is not tolerate. just look at aaron and mariam when they got on moses for marrying a woman of color. God gave mariam leprosy. she wanted white? she got white.lol!

But it was in fact illegal in this country for a time and unless I missed something no Christian church ever stood up and said anything. People were denied equal right to the pursuit of hapieness because they were different. That’s all gay people want to, equal opportunity to pursue a life of hapieness and fullfillment, even if their way obtaining happieness is different from yours.

also if you want to use the free society argument, and the Church argument. you have a little bit of a problem. to be a free society, we must set boundaries. these boundaries are called laws, so we can have an orderly existense. when it comes to the Church, they have a right, as private institution to decide on rules of conduct which their members are going to follow.

Yes, and I conceded to this earlier in our conversation. I believe if the Church, as a private religious institution, should be able to practice or not practice whatever traditions or beliefs it wishes. However there needs to be a boundry between that and state law. As I said before, there are non-religious couples that chose to get married outside of any religious organization and have their marriages fully recognized by the state. Why shouldn’t gay people be allowed to do the same?

The Church has a right to set rules for its followers, and if a homosexual Catholic wants to adhere to those rules and practice celibacy, *I’m *certainly not going to stop them. However, when it comes to laws that are meant to encompass citizens of a nations from all faiths and all walks of life, the Church can not, and should not, be the deciding factor.

also you may want to read the Catholic Catechism on this issue. they are a lot more tolerant and loving than most of our protestant bretheren. while at the same time not condoning the behavior. but yes there are Christians who do struggle with homosexuatily, just as their are hetrosexual Christians who struggle with extramarrital and premarital sex. these are not condoned by the Church either. sin is sin. but we are human. but it is not the Churches job to bow to our desires. part of the work of the Church is to get us ready to be presented to Christ as and unspotted Bride.

I never suggested the Church was intolerant. Like I said, there are certainly people within the Church who struggle to abstain from behaviors the Church leaders tell them are sinful. But there are also plenty of people outside of the Catholic Church who practice behaviors the CC views as sinful and are perfectly happy with it. They chose not to conform to Catholic teachings. The same laws that allow the CC the freedom to worship in the open also protect the rights of people who don’t believe in the Church teachings.

also i love california. going to got there for training soon. Love in Christ.

Awesome! I’m just in Cali for college, but I’m loving it to.

 

[benidict]

How tragic. This is why I say that not matter how you feel about gay marriage, gay people in todays society need compassion, not condemnation.

But it was in fact illegal in this country for a time and unless I missed something no Christian church ever stood up and said anything. People were denied equal right to the pursuit of hapieness because they were different. That’s all gay people want to, equal opportunity to pursue a life of hapieness and fullfillment, even if their way obtaining happieness is different from yours.

Yes, and I conceded to this earlier in our conversation. I believe if the Church, as a private religious institution, should be able to practice or not practice whatever traditions or beliefs it wishes. However there needs to be a boundry between that and state law. As I said before, there are non-religious couples that chose to get married outside of any religious organization and have their marriages fully recognized by the state. Why shouldn’t gay people be allowed to do the same?

The Church has a right to set rules for its followers, and if a homosexual Catholic wants to adhere to those rules and practice celibacy, *I’m *certainly not going to stop them. However, when it comes to laws that are meant to encompass citizens of a nations from all faiths and all walks of life, the Church can not, and should not, be the deciding factor.

I never suggested the Church was intolerant. Like I said, there are certainly people within the Church who struggle to abstain from behaviors the Church leaders tell them are sinful. But there are also plenty of people outside of the Catholic Church who practice behaviors the CC views as sinful and are perfectly happy with it. They chose not to conform to Catholic teachings. The same laws that allow the CC the freedom to worship in the open also protect the rights of people who don’t believe in the Church teachings.

Awesome! I’m just in Cali for college, but I’m loving it to.

i will get in some trouble by some of my fellow Catholics here, but oh well. you are correct. the Church cannot judge those who are without, only those that are within. however the Church is also called to be salt and light. we are allowed to voice our concerns in societal issues. some of which have been slavery in the 1800s as well as today in the sudan. the Catholic Church is actually doing alot over there for our brothers and sisters in Christ. but yes in this country it was illegal for a mixed couple to get married. that is why the marriage license was first introduced so blacks could not marry whites, black slaves needed a license from their white masters to marry. and no i would not want anyone to be forced to live according to my Churches teachings. but its not just the Church who are against gay marriage. everywhere its been put up for a vote, its been shot down. society has deemed it to be wrong. and some of them i would wager have been homosexual themselves, some think this is a bad way to go. what about their voice. or are their voices drowned out by the rest of the homosexual community. again. i may get in trouble but civil union would be a much better way to go. it would give them the legal protections without having to marry. and in cases such as your mother chose it would benifit these couples as well. this is a sensitive issue, and im glad you and i can talk about it reasonably. by some of the other post, others are not fairing so well.lol! if i say anything that offends you please let me know. its not an easy issue and im trying to stay away from cliches.God bless you and yours.

 

[apromisemade]

i will get in some trouble by some of my fellow Catholics here, but oh well. you are correct. the Church cannot judge those who are without, only those that are within. however the Church is also called to be salt and light. we are allowed to voice our concerns in societal issues. some of which have been slavery in the 1800s as well as today in the sudan. the Catholic Church is actually doing alot over there for our brothers and sisters in Christ. but yes in this country it was illegal for a mixed couple to get married. that is why the marriage license was first introduced so blacks could not marry whites, black slaves needed a license from their white masters to marry. and no i would not want anyone to be forced to live according to my Churches teachings. but its not just the Church who are against gay marriage. everywhere its been put up for a vote, its been shot down. society has deemed it to be wrong. and some of them i would wager have been homosexual themselves, some think this is a bad way to go. what about their voice. or are their voices drowned out by the rest of the homosexual community. again. i may get in trouble but civil union would be a much better way to go. it would give them the legal protections without having to marry. and in cases such as your mother chose it would benifit these couples as well. this is a sensitive issue, and im glad you and i can talk about it reasonably. by some of the other post, others are not fairing so well.lol! if i say anything that offends you please let me know. its not an easy issue and im trying to stay away from cliches.God bless you and yours.

I’m glad you feel I’ve been able to talk reasonably about this, it can get rather emotional for some. And no, you’ve said nothing that’s offended me.

There’ve been arguments before that “the people have spoken” and that democratic rule should be accepted. But majority rule is not always right. The Personhood Act of Colorado is a prime example. A measure was put on the ballot in Colorado and the same time Proposition 8 was put on the ballot in California that simply defined humanity/a human being as being present at the moment of conception. Or something to that effect.

Basically the measure legally defined a person from the moment of conception as a human being. The majority decided it was not. The measure was soundly defeated 70% to 30%. Was the majority right? Of course not.

There are a multitude of other examples to. At one point in our history the majority of the population supported slavery, it took a civil war to end slavery in our country. Did that make the majority right? Absolutely not.

Fortunately though, I think the issue of gay marriage is a little more “compromise-able” than slavery or abortion. But that’s just me.

 

[benidict]

I’m glad you feel I’ve been able to talk reasonably about this, it can get rather emotional for some. And no, you’ve said nothing that’s offended me.

There’ve been arguments before that “the people have spoken” and that democratic rule should be accepted. But majority rule is not always right. The Personhood Act of Colorado is a prime example. A measure was put on the ballot in Colorado and the same time Proposition 8 was put on the ballot in California that simply defined humanity/a human being as being present at the moment of conception. Or something to that effect.

Basically the measure legally defined a person from the moment of conception as a human being. The majority decided it was not. The measure was soundly defeated 70% to 30%. Was the majority right? Of course not.

There are a multitude of other examples to. At one point in our history the majority of the population supported slavery, it took a civil war to end slavery in our country. Did that make the majority right? Absolutely not.

Fortunately though, I think the issue of gay marriage is a little more “compromise-able” than slavery or abortion. But that’s just me.

i whole heartedly agree with you on this. democratic rule is far from often right. thats why our forefathers gave us a constitutional republic. if we could keep it. and we couldnt. however, how would you feel about, umm say polygamy? would that be ok in your book? nothing wrong biblically with it. but be that as it may, the Rabbis believed that this practice was not best, and the practice was eventually discontinued in many areas of the world. also civilly in the united states polygamy remains illegal. in the Churches eyes it is not a proper practice either, even though there is nothing in the bible against it. so in your view should polygamy be accepted. many homosexuals would say its not a viable option. why? im just playing devils advocate. im not advocating the practice. just on the path to where your thought process could very well lead. i will suggest another scenario when we continue. till then, God bless. and enjoy california. i like the stockton area. used to stop in french camp just south of there alot. and tracy too.

 

[apromisemade]

i whole heartedly agree with you on this. democratic rule is far from often right. thats why our forefathers gave us a constitutional republic. if we could keep it. and we couldnt. however, how would you feel about, umm say polygamy? would that be ok in your book? nothing wrong biblically with it. but be that as it may, the Rabbis believed that this practice was not best, and the practice was eventually discontinued in many areas of the world. also civilly in the united states polygamy remains illegal. in the Churches eyes it is not a proper practice either, even though there is nothing in the bible against it. so in your view should polygamy be accepted. many homosexuals would say its not a viable option. why? im just playing devils advocate. im not advocating the practice. just on the path to where your thought process could very well lead. i will suggest another scenario when we continue. till then, God bless. and enjoy california. i like the stockton area. used to stop in french camp just south of there alot. and tracy too.

If you want my honest answer, I personally don’t see anything inherently wrong with polygamy either. It gets a bad wrap in the U.S because people, intentionally or not, assume it breeds child abuse, when that is not the case at all. Of course we all know the stories of the polygamist cults that force girls to marry at a very young age, but in truth there are plenty of mentally balanced and emotionally adjusted adults out there who were raised in polygamist families and can testify that their families were perfectly functional and count their childhoods as happy ones.

That’s cool that you’ve been to Stockton. Every day it seems I am reminded about what a small world we live in.

God bless you to. I’ve enjoyed our conversation thoroughly.

 

[benidict]

If you want my honest answer, I personally don’t see anything inherently wrong with polygamy either. It gets a bad wrap in the U.S because people, intentionally or not, assume it breeds child abuse, when that is not the case at all. Of course we all know the stories of the polygamist cults that force girls to marry at a very young age, but in truth there are plenty of mentally balanced and emotionally adjusted adults out there who were raised in polygamist families and can testify that their families were perfectly functional and count their childhoods as happy ones.

That’s cool that you’ve been to Stockton. Every day it seems I am reminded about what a small world we live in.

God bless you to. I’ve enjoyed our conversation thoroughly.

hello promise. yes ive met people who practice this. and if a man can handle more than one woman. well. good luck on that. anyhow, its probably off topic. my bad. i think the main issue we can agree on is there does need to be some things changed civilly for this group in our society, so that they can have protections that others take for granted. agreed. how that should be done is another issue. but you are right, compassion for homosexuals is something that is needed badly. when i was 20 i had a nurse i worked with in the local nursing home, die of aids, this was 20 years ago. people were alot less forgiving and tolerant back then. my now exwife and i went to visit with him and pray with him. it turns out later, we found out that besides his parents, we were the only ones to do so. all those lives he touched with his gift for nursing and he was pretty much abandoned by just about everyone at the end. that is tragic. it should have never happened. he was a wonderful human being. and i saw him save the life of a resident while i was there. and he pretty much died alone in an ill lit private hospital room. i dont think we are that far apart in our view.God bless you and keep you safe. have you been to old sacremento yet? thats a treat!

 

[Mosacked]

I am an Episcopalian who has been wrestling with this issue for a long time. I am not gay, but the issue has vexed me for a long time.

I recognize that there are many gays and lesbians who are in committed relationships, and that many of these relationships are markedly superior to some married heterosexual relationships. And I recognize that it is not likely possible to switch from being gay to being straight.

So, I have wrestled with this a great deal. Frankly, the prohibitions in Leviticus are not that pursuasive, as the law of the ancient Hebrews reflected a need to procreate in family units in order to preserve the race.

But the world of Jesus and of St. Paul was a very different time. It was as cosmopolitan as our world of today. Survival of any race was not a issue then or now. Jesus said nothing about homosexuality. He said nothing. Nothing. Nothing.

St. Paul did, especially in Romans. He saw homosexuality in a modern context, and he reacted to what he saw. There is no reason to imagine that St. Paul did not understand that there were committed relationships among the homosexuals and lesbians he saw in his time.

Now, back to Jesus. Again he said nothing. And since nothing else in his Gospels suggests that he would license novel sexual practices, it is hard to imagine that he would license homosexuality as an alternative to committed life-long heterosexual marriage.

I have wrestled with this for some time. I want to liberal and “fair”. I want to see gay relationships as close to equal to straight relationships, but I can’t. Study of scripture and a reasoned understanding of history shows me this is not possible.

And so, with some reluctance (really), I conclude that the case for homosexual marriage, or any openly accepted homosexuality in Christianity is at best not proven.

I am not about to abandon my church, either for another Anglican group or for Rome. I will stay as a reasoning witness.

What is sexuality in the kingdom of God? NOTHING. According to Jesus, the people in the age to come, neither marry nor are given in marriage.

Or do you expect God to condemn someone just because he/she is born a homosexual?

Wouldn’t that be disqualifying the right to live for someone or something that was not born in the naturally right state? If that be the case, then the paraplegic, the conjoined twins, the born blind should all be made still births because they were all not born in the naturally ‘right’ state.

How do we worship God? Jesus said in TRUTH & SPIRIT.

Did not even the eunuch receive revelation while in the carriage? Was God concerned with his lack of ‘male-ness’??? NO.

Yet, that said, homosexuals shall not inherit the kingdom, just like Adulterers shall not inherit the kingdom. Because both have transgressed against the boundaries of faithfulness. And nothing unclean will ever enter heaven.

How? you ask. Homosexuals trespass the natural state of things, not by their birth, but by their practices.

God will not penalise you for what you cannot control (born that way), but God expects restrain at the very least for what you can, and not just for the homosexuals but also for the heterosexuals. Or do you think that you can wallow in sex like the pagans do and enter heaven?

.

 

[apromisemade]

hello promise. yes ive met people who practice this. and if a man can handle more than one woman. well. good luck on that. anyhow, its probably off topic. my bad. i think the main issue we can agree on is there does need to be some things changed civilly for this group in our society, so that they can have protections that others take for granted. agreed. how that should be done is another issue. but you are right, compassion for homosexuals is something that is needed badly. when i was 20 i had a nurse i worked with in the local nursing home, die of aids, this was 20 years ago. people were alot less forgiving and tolerant back then. my now exwife and i went to visit with him and pray with him. it turns out later, we found out that besides his parents, we were the only ones to do so. all those lives he touched with his gift for nursing and he was pretty much abandoned by just about everyone at the end. that is tragic. it should have never happened. he was a wonderful human being. and i saw him save the life of a resident while i was there. and he pretty much died alone in an ill lit private hospital room. i dont think we are that far apart in our view.God bless you and keep you safe. have you been to old sacremento yet? thats a treat!

You are right. That is most definately something we can both agree on.

Such a sad story .

I’ve been to sacramento a couple times, but unfortunately I haven’t had the chance to look around. I’ve mostly just got there for debate tournaments or on my way back home. Beneath all the smoke and steel it does have an old rustic ranchero feel to it. Hopefully one of these days I’ll be able to take a walk around there.

 

[Mosacked]

If you want my honest answer, I personally don’t see anything inherently wrong with polygamy either. It gets a bad wrap in the U.S because people, intentionally or not, assume it breeds child abuse, when that is not the case at all. Of course we all know the stories of the polygamist cults that force girls to marry at a very young age, but in truth there are plenty of mentally balanced and emotionally adjusted adults out there who were raised in polygamist families and can testify that their families were perfectly functional and count their childhoods as happy ones.

That’s cool that you’ve been to Stockton. Every day it seems I am reminded about what a small world we live in.

God bless you to. I’ve enjoyed our conversation thoroughly.

Nothing inherently wrong? Perhaps to you, but certainly not according to the Bible.

Matthew 19:3 Some Pharisees approached Him to test Him(Jesus). They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on any grounds?” (D)

4 "Haven't you read," He replied, "that He who created [a] them in the beginning made them male and female , (E) (F) 5 and He also said:

For this reason a man will leave

his father and mother

and be joined to his wife,

and the two will become one flesh ? (G) (H)

6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, man must not separate."

7 "Why then," they asked Him, "did Moses command [us] to give divorce papers (I) and to send her away?"

8 He told them, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of the hardness of your hearts. But it was not like that from the beginning. 9 And I tell you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery."

---

Above tells you clearly that God made one man to one woman. NOT Polygamy. Divorce & polygamy springs from lusts and the hardness of hearts.

 

[benidict]

You are right. That is most definately something we can both agree on.

Such a sad story .

I’ve been to sacramento a couple times, but unfortunately I haven’t had the chance to look around. I’ve mostly just got there for debate tournaments or on my way back home. Beneath all the smoke and steel it does have an old rustic ranchero feel to it. Hopefully one of these days I’ll be able to take a walk around there.

excellent. i should have known. you do a very good job at debating your position. just wish more threads went this way. oh well we are human after all. if you get the chance get up to mt. shasta to a little town called weed. yep weed. lol! right underneath this huge mountain that looks like the one in japan. beautiful, just stunning. i cant wait to get to so cal early next year. hopefully i can get some time off and get into L.A. as an old metal head, thats my “jerusalem” God bless you and yours, hope we can have a discussion like this on other threads. its always nice to meet someone who can voice their view in a Christian and civil spirit.