Here is what I think about homosexuality and Christianity

[apromisemade]

Let’s simplify the matter. Plenty of Christians have committed murder. Does that mean we should make murder legal?

Plenty of Christians lie, cheat, commit adultery. Should we declare these sins no longer an abomination and so now consider this completely in accord with Christian precepts?

Practice will always fall short of the Christian ideal but Christian standards should never be lowered to Christian practice. We do not have the authority to do that because those standards were set by God Himself.

That’s completely beside the point. The PP was stating that gay marriage is not a Christian belief and therefore I could not be Christian and believe in gay marriage, I was pointing out that there are plenty of people out there who identify as Christians but still engage in a multitude of non-Christian behaviors, does that then give you or anyone else the right to walk around dictating who does or does not have the right to call themself Christian?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

TIMOTHY PIPER at 191 above: VERY WELL SAID. You provided the most references to the Bible.

This Forum is a Catholic one where Catholics, other Christians, and non-Christians may comment and provide their analyses. It would be helpful if those who think that a gay life style, including gay marriage, is a first rate Christian behavior worthy of honor and respect, if they would analyze the Bible references and perhaps provide reference to noted theologians who have also analyzed the given Bible references.

Yet at the same time, we all should acknowledge that each person DOES have a role to play in God’s GOOD design for mankind. Some do have more demanding roles, but if they make their best efforts, I am sure that God will reward them more than us who have less struggles. Each of us has to determine in his own mind whether or not he is trying his best to follow Christ.

As for the laws of a society, if we want to think of ours as being Christian, we must vote, when allowed to, for the values we accept in the Bible. It is proper to say, in our Christian society that gay marriage is illegal while at the same time showing compassion for gays by providing a reasonable level of benefits.

When I do wrong, I know it is wrong either right then or later when I reflect. I do not delude myself by saying it is right for me. It may be the best I can do, but I know it does not meet the standard. And THAT awareness can create frustration for me. My faith in Christ allows me to constantly seek His forgiveness, to ask for His Grace to help me live a more faithful life, to love others as best I can in the right way, to do as much good in the world as I can. I may never succeed, but it is the struggle and constant call to God that matters.

As long as I do not brag about my wrongs trying to convince others that I am correct, as long as I acknowledge my weaknesses (we all have them, just different ones) perhaps not publically to strangers but at least to myself and God, as long as I seek God’s forgiveness and mercy and continue to live up to other standards, I do have reason to hope for eternal salvation.

But if I reject God, as He has revealed Himself in the Bible, if WHAT I WANT comes first, last and always, then my chance for eternal salvation is greatly diminished.

Folks; this is a simple issue of sin. Let’s say we find genetic evidence that being a homosexual is part of the genetic make-up and no other influences, such as societal influence, sexual abuse etc played any role. Let’s take it a step further and say God made them that way…please forgive me God, just an example. How would this change the nature of the sin itself? Being attracted to the same sex is not the sin; it is the lust and/or actions associated with the attraction that make it a sin. As a married male; this does not preclude me from having the temptation to lust over another woman nor if I were tempted by another woman would it be a sin. The sin occurs when the temptation becomes lust or action (word or deed). Jesus was tempted in all manner as we are; yet without sin.

The temptations are what we are to resist and how do we do that? First; you must recognize your depravity before God and repent from your sin and ask for forgiveness and by faith ask God to cleanse you from all unrighteousness through the blood of Jesus Christ - now you have a Savior or do you? Secondly, there is the Lordship aspect which is the obedience aspect of our salvation. The one who is justified before God will be sanctified through God in the persons of the Trinity.

Making excuses before men and twisting the word of God to fit the sin will in no way change the standards God has set. Those standards are impossible to meet in the flesh, which is why we must be born again so the power of God working in and through us can achieve the impossible…thank God for Jesus Christ…amen

 

[Timothy_Piper]

That’s completely beside the point. The PP was stating that gay marriage is not a Christian belief and therefore I could not be Christian and believe in gay marriage, I was pointing out that there are plenty of people out there who identify as Christians but still engage in a multitude of non-Christian behaviors, does that then give you or anyone else the right to walk around dictating who does or does not have the right to call themself Christian?

Anyone can call themself a Christian and many do, but few actually are. I would be more concerned about my own spiritual condition before I was concerned about someone else.

Matthew 7:13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Who is the audience to which Jesus is addressing? Very religious people; not pagans. This passage of Scripture is riveting in my opinion and it is not like this is the only place in either the OT or NT where God basically tells those who “say” they believe in “God”, but fall short of entering the Kingdom of God. This is scary; we all better be sure of the path we have taken. Remember; it is never too late to change the road one may be on as long as they have earthly life.

If you move along in Matthew 7 in verses 21-23 where He says not everyone will enter who says “Lord, Lord”.

God bless all of ya!

 

[benedictus2]

That’s completely beside the point. The PP was stating that gay marriage is not a Christian belief and therefore I could not be Christian and believe in gay marriage, I was pointing out that there are plenty of people out there who identify as Christians but still engage in a multitude of non-Christian behaviors, does that then give you or anyone else the right to walk around dictating who does or does not have the right to call themself Christian?

Actually it is not. You completely missed the point. One cannot call oneself Christian if one does not believe in Christian precepts.

That would be like saying you believe murder is okay and yet still want to be referred to as Christian. Once you start believing that something that is forbidden is permissible then you cease to be a Christian. We don’t have a say on the matter on what is and is not permissible.

It is one thing to kill and believe that it is wrong to kill, and entirely another to believe that murder is not against Christian belief. You fall in the latter category as regards homosexual marriage.

If you believe homosexual marriage is okay then you really ought to stop calling yourself a Christian because you do not believe in one of the very basic tenets of Christian morality.

Christ said I am the Truth. Either we give assent to Christian truths or we give assent to lies. You are in effect saying let us make this lie the truth.

To emphasize: A person who claims to be a Christian, believes that it is a sin to kill but kills anyway, is what may be called a Christian who happens to have sinned.

Someone who does not believe murder is a sin cannot call himself a Christian (he is in fact a psychopath) because this is completely against Christian teaching.

It is one thing to fall and know that one has fallen and another to say that the fallen state is the benchmark, so therefore perfectly okay to remain in that fallen state.

 

[apromisemade]

Actually it is not. You completely missed the point. One cannot call oneself Christian if one does not believe in Christian precepts.

That would be like saying you believe murder is okay and yet still want to be referred to as Christian. Once you start believing that something that is forbidden is permissible then you cease to be a Christian. We don’t have a say on the matter on what is and is not permissible.

It is one thing to kill and believe that it is wrong to kill, and entirely another to believe that murder is not against Christian belief. You fall in the latter category as regards homosexual marriage.

If you believe homosexual marriage is okay then you really ought to stop calling yourself a Christian because you do not believe in one of the very basic tenets of Christian morality.

Christ said I am the Truth. Either we give assent to Christian truths or we give assent to lies. You are in effect saying let us make this lie the truth.

To emphasize: A person who claims to be a Christian, believes that it is a sin to kill but kills anyway, is what may be called a Christian who happens to have sinned.

Someone who does not believe murder is a sin cannot call himself a Christian (he is in fact a psychopath) because this is completely against Christian teaching.

It is one thing to fall and know that one has fallen and another to say that the fallen state is the benchmark, so therefore perfectly okay to remain in that fallen state.

If you presume to think you have the right to tell someone they can or cannot claim to be Christian, then you might as well stop calling yourself Christian because that’s very judgemental.

And don’t even try to compare murder to homosexuality, the two are not in the same category and to say that they are is extremely unkind to and stigmatizing of gay people.

 

[exan]

TIMOTHY PIPER at 191 above: VERY WELL SAID. You provided the most references to the Bible.

This Forum is a Catholic one where Catholics, other Christians, and non-Christians may comment and provide their analyses. It would be helpful if those who think that a gay life style, including gay marriage, is a first rate Christian behavior worthy of honor and respect, if they would analyze the Bible references and perhaps provide reference to noted theologians who have also analyzed the given Bible references.

Yet at the same time, we all should acknowledge that each person DOES have a role to play in God’s GOOD design for mankind. Some do have more demanding roles, but if they make their best efforts, I am sure that God will reward them more than us who have less struggles. Each of us has to determine in his own mind whether or not he is trying his best to follow Christ.

As for the laws of a society, if we want to think of ours as being Christian, we must vote, when allowed to, for the values we accept in the Bible. It is proper to say, in our Christian society that gay marriage is illegal while at the same time showing compassion for gays by providing a reasonable level of benefits.

When I do wrong, I know it is wrong either right then or later when I reflect. I do not delude myself by saying it is right for me. It may be the best I can do, but I know it does not meet the standard. And THAT awareness can create frustration for me. My faith in Christ allows me to constantly seek His forgiveness, to ask for His Grace to help me live a more faithful life, to love others as best I can in the right way, to do as much good in the world as I can. I may never succeed, but it is the struggle and constant call to God that matters.

As long as I do not brag about my wrongs trying to convince others that I am correct, as long as I acknowledge my weaknesses (we all have them, just different ones) perhaps not publically to strangers but at least to myself and God, as long as I seek God’s forgiveness and mercy and continue to live up to other standards, I do have reason to hope for eternal salvation.

But if I reject God, as He has revealed Himself in the Bible, if WHAT I WANT comes first, last and always, then my chance for eternal salvation is greatly diminished.

You are deciding here not about the option for christians to marry but about anyones option to marry including loads of people who are not following your religion. Not everyone is a christian. You push your so called morality on them too. Theres a lot of whining about people disliking christians and antitheism etc, problem is, when people get morals pushed on them they do not like it. You would also not like getting muslim rules pushed in your face.
Furthermore you are playing hypocrite here, you cannot passively let gay marriage happenf or people who are not christian, but I do not see you protest against divorce in the law.

 

[benedictus2]

If you presume to think you have the right to tell someone they can or cannot claim to be Christian, then you might as well stop calling yourself Christian because that’s very judgemental.

You completely missed the point again:

Take 3 this time with generics. Religion A forbids SinB. If you consider yourself a follower of ReligionA then you must consider SinB a sin. If you do not consider SinB a sin then you cannot rightly consider youself a follower of ReligionA.

And don’t even try to compare murder to homosexuality, the two are not in the same category and to say that they are is extremely unkind to and stigmatizing of gay people.

A sin, is a sin, is a sin. All sins result in spiritual death. What you want to do is blur the lines.

It is not about stigmatizing gays anymore than I would be stigmatizing heterosexuals if I said that adultery is a sin.

You really need to get your head around this distinction.

 

[mangy_dog]

I said many gay relationships are superior to straight ones. I did not say most. I am expressing the thought processes that brought me to understand that there is no Christian acceptance of homosexuality. Sodom was a long time ago, and Lot offering his daughters to would-be sodomite rapists is especially problematic for me. I am more convinced by the NT evidence. But our conclusions are the same.

There isn’t a single, actively homosexual relationship that is even in the same light as a marriage between man and woman.

No amount of committment, monogamy, fidelity will ever make an active homosexual relationship a good thing.

 

[thomasstuart]

Hi This is Thomas.
According to me, you and I seem to be reasoning along the same lines. When I say Jesus said nothing, that means just that. That “nothing” means there is no permission given. It is completely out of character for Jesus to have licensed something sexually novel. Indeed, had he said nothing about divorce, Christians would be free to divorce along the lines of Jewish law.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Hi This is Thomas.
According to me, you and I seem to be reasoning along the same lines. When I say Jesus said nothing, that means just that. That “nothing” means there is no permission given. It is completely out of character for Jesus to have licensed something sexually novel. Indeed, had he said nothing about divorce, Christians would be free to divorce along the lines of Jewish law.

You logic is flawed; just because Scripture is silent on something can mean either it is permissible or it could mean it is not permissible or it is irrelevent. But those which seem to be silent often are strongly implicit by other areas of Scripture. Jesus has a lot to say about homosexuality in both the OT and NT as I have proven from Scripture. Sodom was completely wiped off the planet for this abomination. This is why homosexuals are referred to as sodomites from sodomy. Like all sinners, they need a savior and treat him as Lord through obedience, not different than any other person that comes to the Lord and Savior.

 

[GratefulFred]

You are deciding here not about the option for christians to marry but about anyones option to marry including loads of people who are not following your religion. Not everyone is a christian. You push your so called morality on them too. Theres a lot of whining about people disliking christians and antitheism etc, problem is, when people get morals pushed on them they do not like it. You would also not like getting muslim rules pushed in your face.
Furthermore you are playing hypocrite here, you cannot passively let gay marriage happenf or people who are not christian, but I do not see you protest against divorce in the law.

America IS a Christian society. Our moral base IS the Bible. Our civil laws mostly comport well with the Moral Law established in the Bible.

America also recognizes that we have many religions in America and those who prefer no religion at all. America does provide a great deal of tolerance - freedom - for non-Christians, but total freedom is chaos. It is our job, as Americans, to preserve our moral base while doing what we can to provide for those who do not share that base. Our laws are voted by the majority consisting of Christians, non-Christians, and aethesists. But, we cannot abandon that moral base because a vocal minority rejects a moral code that has existed for at least 4,000 years.

In the Muslim world there is scarcely any tolerance of those who do not believe in Islam. If I choose to live in the Muslim world I must respect their standards or expect push back. They may tolerate my presence, but they would never extol me as being equal to them.

America cannot prevent gay sex or gay unions. America has even provided most of the tax benefits that hetrosexual households have. Gays do enjoy considerable freedom in America. But the term “marriage” has meant between a man and a woman for more than 4,000 years in hundreds of countries. It is totally unreasonable to refine the term “marriage” to accommodate a vocal minority. Maintaining the time honored definition of marriage IS NOT pushing Christian morals on gays. Rather, the push to refine marriage to suit the few is a push to tear down the moral base of America.

I do not address divorce because it is not the subject of this thread.

 

[apromisemade]

You completely missed the point again:

Take 3 this time with generics. Religion A forbids SinB. If you consider yourself a follower of ReligionA then you must consider SinB a sin. If you do not consider SinB a sin then you cannot rightly consider youself a follower of ReligionA.

A sin, is a sin, is a sin. All sins result in spiritual death. What you want to do is blur the lines.

It is not about stigmatizing gays anymore than I would be stigmatizing heterosexuals if I said that adultery is a sin.

You really need to get your head around this distinction.

People have called themselves Christian and openly advocated for shooting Mexicans in the head rather than allowing them into the country, plenty of Catholics find a way to justify using birth control in their minds, God knows how many Christian conquerers during the age of exploration used their religion to justify enslaving and slaughtering Native Americans by the tens of thousands, the list goes on.

And let me ask you this? Do you believe children should be executed for disrespecting their parents? Do you think homosexuals should be stoned to death for their “crime?” Do you think eating lobster is an abomination? Do you think everyone who ever touched a pig is going to hell?

If you answered no to any of these questions, you are just as much of a “cherry picker” as I am.

Bottom line, it is not your place to tell someone if they can or cannot call themselves Christian. And it is not your place to force someone to conform to a belief system that they may or many not accept by advocating that it be dictated by civil law.

And homosexuality is not the same as murder. A murder is a conciouss act that robs a human of their life, homosexuality is a genetically ingrained orientation that someone does not chose to have. To the contrary, the gay people I’ve met in my life have been kinder and gentler than most straight people.

 

[benedictus2]

People have called themselves Christian and openly advocated for shooting Mexicans in the head rather than allowing them into the country, plenty of Catholics find a way to justify using birth control in their minds, God knows how many Christian conquerers during the age of exploration used their religion to justify enslaving and slaughtering Native Americans by the tens of thousands, the list goes on.

You really still do not get it. Practice has nothing to do with it. The reason people justify their actions is because they know it is wrong. Other wise there would be no need to justifiy their actions.

If is one thing to acknowledge a sin (excuse oneself for doing it and commit that sin), it is another thing to say that it is not a sin.

And let me ask you this? Do you believe children should be executed for disrespecting their parents?

What does that have to do with any thing?

Do you think homosexuals should be stoned to death for their “crime?”

No. But do I believe that homosexual marriage is a sin? Yes. That is the whole point of this thread, that the practice of homosexual sex is a sin. But you do not want to consider it a sin so you can feel good while you do it.

Do you think eating lobster is an abomination? Do you think everyone who ever touched a pig is going to hell?
If you answered no to any of these questions, you are just as much of a “cherry picker” as I am.

Nope. Because these other sins are not considered sins by Christians. Homosexual sex is.

Bottom line, it is not your place to tell someone if they can or cannot call themselves Christian. And it is not your place to force someone to conform to a belief system that they may or many not accept by advocating that it be dictated by civil law.

Civil law derives from Biblical law until of course the politically correct decided to toy with it .

I am not forcing anyone to conform to a belief that they do not accept. But please do not claim that that belief is Christian because it is not. That is where the problem is.

You have every right to believe that homosexuality is okay but don’t claim that that is compatible with Christian doctrine. It is very clearly NOT.

And homosexuality is not the same as murder. A murder is a conciouss act that robs a human of their life, homosexuality is a genetically ingrained orientation that someone does not chose to have.

But they can CHOOSE NOT TO COMMIT THE HOMESEXUAL ACT.
To the contrary, the gay people I’ve met in my life have been kinder and gentler than most straight people.
Kindness, gentleness, etc, etc, has absolutely nothng to do with it. Paedophiles will tell you that they have a compulsion to have sex wtih children. Probably some of them are actually quite “kind” and “gentle”.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Oh benidict, I feel better!!lol

Now about the Army part, that is another story…
Go Navy! Beat Army!

God Bless!

My dad was in Vietnam in the Army and served until he retired four years ago. My grandpa was Army, too! Take it easy on the Army, sister! LOL

 

[apromisemade]

You really still do not get it. Practice has nothing to do with it. The reason people justify their actions is because they know it is wrong. Other wise there would be no need to justifiy their actions.

Or they simply know that their religion contradicts it but don’t think it’s wrong.

Nope. Because these other sins are not considered sins by Christians. Homosexual sex is.

Actually they are. In Leviticus, the same part of the bible that condems homosexuality, eating lobster is called an abomination. All of these other things are found in the bible as well.

Civil law derives from Biblical law until of course the politically correct decided to toy with it .

The day civil law is derived from biblical law is the day adulterous people are punished by being stoned to death.

I am not forcing anyone to conform to a belief that they do not accept. But please do not claim that that belief is Christian because it is not. That is where the problem is.

You have every right to believe that homosexuality is okay but don’t claim that that is compatible with Christian doctrine. It is very clearly NOT.

Point out to me one spot in this entire thread where I suggested gay marriage was a Christian practice.

But they can CHOOSE NOT TO COMMIT THE HOMESEXUAL ACT.

Kindness, gentleness, etc, etc, has absolutely nothng to do with it. Paedophiles will tell you that they have a compulsion to have sex wtih children. Probably some of them are actually quite “kind” and “gentle”.

Are you suggesting homosexuals are the same as pedophiles?

 

[benidict]

You logic is flawed; just because Scripture is silent on something can mean either it is permissible or it could mean it is not permissible or it is irrelevent. But those which seem to be silent often are strongly implicit by other areas of Scripture. Jesus has a lot to say about homosexuality in both the OT and NT as I have proven from Scripture. Sodom was completely wiped off the planet for this abomination. This is why homosexuals are referred to as sodomites from sodomy. Like all sinners, they need a savior and treat him as Lord through obedience, not different than any other person that comes to the Lord and Savior.

hi brother timothy. you seem the most knowlegable here. sounds like your probably a pastor. so i have to pick on you. lol! why is it we Christians only look at the externals? it seems the only sin people in todays day and age look at is sexual sin. and yes homosexuality is sexual sin. but so is hetorosexual premarrital sex. is there a difference? it seems at least the protestant churches are more lax on this sin. also people living together. while we are on it. what about the abomination of gluttony? are obese people seperated from the kingdom of God? what about the sin of indifference? i cant give you chapter and verse right now, but i believe God finds it an abomination to be complacent and uncaring. i truly believe that sexual sin, wheather it is homosexual or hetrosexual, is a symptom of a much deeper problem. and the Church, wheather protestant or Catholic, is somehow, dropping the ball. love in Christ. im interested in your thoughts. peace be with you.

 

[benidict]

My dad was in Vietnam in the Army and served until he retired four years ago. My grandpa was Army, too! Take it easy on the Army, sister! LOL

hi gurneyhalleck.lol! actually her husband is retired navy, and now in the airforce. had some good pm with her. shes pro military all the way. hooah! thank your dad and your grandpa for their service for me. im getting deployed middle of next year. peace be to you. hope you and yours had a great thanksgiving.

 

[charliebrown78]

We as christians are taught to love one another but with the same token are also yold to help our brother notice when he/she is not doing the right thing, not judge but simply try to help guide them to the path that Jesus set up for us! What path is that? To follow the will of GOD! And he said let there be man and woman. If a person choses a diferrent path or not is not for us to judge, but we cant stand and watch that person take the wrong path eather!

 

[Barry_Gabriel]

Or they simply know that their religion contradicts it but don’t think it’s wrong.

Actually they are. In Leviticus, the same part of the bible that condems homosexuality, eating lobster is called an abomination. All of these other things are found in the bible as well.

Do you not remember Peter’s vision allowing ALL food to be eaten, including lobster, pork, etc?

The day civil law is derived from biblical law is the day adulterous people are punished by being stoned to death.

Oh? Then explain why Jesus sent away the adulterous woman, who didn’t get stoned, with the warning “Sin no more.”

 

[Dokimas]

…

Now, back to Jesus. Again he said nothing. And since nothing else in his Gospels suggests that he would license novel sexual practices, it is hard to imagine that he would license homosexuality as an alternative to committed life-long heterosexual marriage.

I have wrestled with this for some time. I want to liberal and “fair”. I want to see gay relationships as close to equal to straight relationships, but I can’t. Study of scripture and a reasoned understanding of history shows me this is not possible.

And so, with some reluctance (really), I conclude that the case for homosexual marriage, or any openly accepted homosexuality in Christianity is at best not proven.

I am not about to abandon my church, either for another Anglican group or for Rome. I will stay as a reasoning witness.

Jesus spoke of marriage in terms of one man and one woman. He also spoke of sex outside of marriage as sinful. He may have not spoke about homosexuality specifically, but what He did say seemed to ‘speak volumes’ on the subject, IMO.​

God bless you as you seek His will.