Here is what I think about homosexuality and Christianity

[Chochy]

hi brother timothy. you seem the most knowlegable here. sounds like your probably a pastor. so i have to pick on you. lol! why is it we Christians only look at the externals? it seems the only sin people in todays day and age look at is sexual sin. and yes homosexuality is sexual sin. but so is hetorosexual premarrital sex. is there a difference? it seems at least the protestant churches are more lax on this sin. also people living together. while we are on it. what about the abomination of gluttony? are obese people seperated from the kingdom of God? what about the sin of indifference? i cant give you chapter and verse right now, but i believe God finds it an abomination to be complacent and uncaring. i truly believe that sexual sin, wheather it is homosexual or hetrosexual, is a symptom of a much deeper problem. and the Church, wheather protestant or Catholic, is somehow, dropping the ball. love in Christ. im interested in your thoughts. peace be with you.

I haven’t taken the time to read all of the responses so forgive me if I am repeating what someone else has already stated. Whenever a topic or situation is complex (and this sure is a complex topic) it is best to keep things simple. I believe that God gave us sex as a gift. Without a doubt that precious gift shared between one man and one woman creates a new life. Does every human being have a biological mother and a biological father? Yes. Are all human beings cared for and nourished by their biological mothers and fathers? No. Are there times when others can care for us far better than our biological mothers and fathers can? Absolutely!
I completely agree with you. Sexual sins, of any kind (along with sins of any other nature) are symptoms of much deeper problems. We do not live in a perfect world.
There are always other truths that can be argued. I am a woman. I can be a mother, a wife, a sister, an aunt, etc. I can have a husband, a son, a daughter, a nephew, etc. I cannot be a brother, an uncle or a husband. I cannot have a wife.
I believe that God is love. I believe that God supports love that is shared between His children regardless of the relationship that exists between those who love one another.
I am responsible for my actions. God can, does and will forgive all of us for our sins. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. He will judge, not us.
We have an obligation to protect one another from harm. We do the best we can, but people still get hurt. We should put our efforts, our concern and unlimited resources into stopping sexual activity that causes great harm to God’s children. Perhaps we should leave the rest to Him. Peace.

 

[apromisemade]

Do you not remember Peter’s vision allowing ALL food to be eaten, including lobster, pork, etc?

The day civil law is derived from biblical law is the day adulterous people are punished by being stoned to death.

Oh? Then explain why Jesus sent away the adulterous woman, who didn’t get stoned, with the warning “Sin no more.”

Simply further proof that everyone pays attention to some parts of the bible but not others.

 

[Dokimas]

hi brother timothy. you seem the most knowlegable here. sounds like your probably a pastor. so i have to pick on you. lol! why is it we Christians only look at the externals? it seems the only sin people in todays day and age look at is sexual sin. and yes homosexuality is sexual sin. but so is hetorosexual premarrital sex. is there a difference? it seems at least the protestant churches are more lax on this sin. also people living together. while we are on it. what about the abomination of gluttony? are obese people seperated from the kingdom of God? what about the sin of indifference? i cant give you chapter and verse right now, but i believe God finds it an abomination to be complacent and uncaring. i truly believe that sexual sin, wheather it is homosexual or hetrosexual, is a symptom of a much deeper problem. and the Church, wheather protestant or Catholic, is somehow, dropping the ball. love in Christ. im interested in your thoughts. peace be with you.

I thought the topic was about homosexuality not heterosexual sins or gluttony.​

BTW, (I know this is off topic but it’s a response to your suggestion that protestants are lax on heterosexual sins) I wonder how many unmarried young Catholic girls get pregnant. The Spanish communities in the USA is mostly Catholic, is it not? There are many, many unmarried young Spanish girls. What’s the CC doing about and for these young ladies? I’m sure if the CC disciplined them it would be all over the news.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

You are deciding here not about the option for christians to marry but about anyones option to marry including loads of people who are not following your religion. Not everyone is a christian. You push your so called morality on them too. Theres a lot of whining about people disliking christians and antitheism etc, problem is, when people get morals pushed on them they do not like it. You would also not like getting muslim rules pushed in your face.
Furthermore you are playing hypocrite here, you cannot passively let gay marriage happenf or people who are not christian, but I do not see you protest against divorce in the law.

You overlook the moral law giver, which is the creator of the heavens and the earth. Do you deny this statement?
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For ***since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. ***

That last part should create fear of the one that is able to literally create everything from nothing by just “speaking”.

Do you fit into one or more of these immoral categories routinely?

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, ***that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. ***

There is a reason that God repeats the following "the fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom, knowledge and understanding.

And to man He said, 'Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom, And to depart from evil is understanding."

The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever; The judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.

Let all the earth fear the Lord; Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.

Oh, fear the Lord, you His saints! There is no want to those who fear Him.

Teach me Your way, O Lord; I will walk in Your truth; Unite my heart to fear Your name.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments. His praise endures forever.

You who fear the Lord, trust in the Lord; He is their help and their shield.

He will bless those who fear the Lord, Both small and great.

The Lord takes pleasure in those who fear Him, In those who hope in His mercy.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of the Lord,

Then you will understand the fear of the Lord, And find the knowledge of God.

The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, To turn one away from the snares of death.

The fear of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom, And before honor is humility.

The fear of the Lord leads to life, And he who has it will abide in satisfaction; He will not be visited with evil.

You can see the importance of “fearing” God; for in it is life and without it is death, for the warnings are many and the benefits are greater for those who “fear the Lord”.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Or they simply know that their religion contradicts it but don’t think it’s wrong.
The day civil law is derived from biblical law is the day adulterous people are punished by being stoned to death.

The 10 commandments come from Exodus 20:1-17. Here is the verse:

And God spoke all these words, saying: "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

1. You shall have no other gods before me.
2. You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

*** 5. Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

1. You shall not murder.
2. You shall not commit adultery.
3. You shall not steal.
4. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
5. You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife
   , nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s."***

Notice that numbers 5 through 10 are civil law because this is the moral lawgivers command as to how people are to treat each other in the negative. The first 4 are how we are to treat God and Jesus summed it up in two commandments. The only commandment that does not pertain specifically to the NT is the sabbath, but that is a another discussion for another day. Notice that 6-10 are something you already know is true whether someone told you or not because it is built into the human heart.

Morality is civil law; it is a matter of who’s morality, the Christian follows the only true law giver, which is the creator of all things except evil.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

hi brother timothy. you seem the most knowlegable here. sounds like your probably a pastor. so i have to pick on you. lol! why is it we Christians only look at the externals? it seems the only sin people in todays day and age look at is sexual sin. and yes homosexuality is sexual sin. but so is hetorosexual premarrital sex. is there a difference? it seems at least the protestant churches are more lax on this sin. also people living together. while we are on it. what about the abomination of gluttony? are obese people seperated from the kingdom of God? what about the sin of indifference? i cant give you chapter and verse right now, but i believe God finds it an abomination to be complacent and uncaring. i truly believe that sexual sin, wheather it is homosexual or hetrosexual, is a symptom of a much deeper problem. and the Church, wheather protestant or Catholic, is somehow, dropping the ball. love in Christ. im interested in your thoughts. peace be with you.

Look, any church that is not teaching the whole council of God does not honor God in my opinion and most churches in the US are not honoring His word in this way in my experience. The good news is that God is never without a witness; but one must be diligent to find a church home that “Christ is building”; for if Christ is not building your church, then either man and or satan is.

As to you other points about over eating, smoking cigaretts, gambling etc are not explicit sin in the Bible. Paul put it this way concerning “Christian freedom” and I am paraphrasing. Everything the is not unlawful is lawful, but not everything that is lawful is profitable. So for those that are over eating and smoking cigaretts, they may not be sin, but they are not profitable and some would say down-right stupid; for if you smoke enough you might get lung cancer and if you continue eating too much you might have a heart attack. Where theses things become a sin is when it offends or causes another brother or sister, particular those that are new in Christ, to stumble. It can also be a sin if these things interfere and control a person to the point where they are not serving the Lord in whatever capacity the Lord has gifted the person. Gambling I think really fits into this category. I can show this from Scripture, but you can also find others who will argue that these are sin, no if ands or buts, but they will have difficulty proving from Scripture and the only verse they can use is “your body is a temple of the Lord”, which is true, but it is a spirituall cleansed temple; otherwise God could not dwell in a believer stained with sin…could He? No of course not. This is why when one is saved, it is a spiritual transformation in which the blood of Jesus cleans the believer from all unrighteousness; yet while in this body on earth we are outwardly stained in the flesh with sin till we receive our glorified bodies, which won’t that be a nice change…LOL

 

[apromisemade]

Notice that numbers 5 through 10 are civil law because this is the moral lawgivers command as to how people are to treat each other in the negative. The first 4 are how we are to treat God and Jesus summed it up in two commandments. The only commandment that does not pertain specifically to the NT is the sabbath, but that is a another discussion for another day. Notice that 6-10 are something you already know is true whether someone told you or not because it is built into the human heart.

Morality is civil law; it is a matter of who’s morality, the Christian follows the only true law giver, which is the creator of all things except evil.

Frankly I think that if something was “built into the human heart” it wouldn’t need to be dictated by law in the first place, by God or man. We don’t make laws because our intuition tells us that they are right, nor because the Bible said so. There were many “Christian” nations 400 years ago who instinctively knew it was right to execute people for herecy by tieing them to a stake and burning them to death.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Frankly I think that if something was “built into the human heart” it wouldn’t need to be dictated by law in the first place, by God or man. We don’t make laws because our intuition tells us that they are right, nor because the Bible said so. There were many “Christian” nations 400 years ago who instinctively knew it was right to execute people for herecy by tieing them to a stake and burning them to death.

You overlook what else god has said, “men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil” (paraphrased) “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory” of God and “no not one seeks after God”

What you think will never change the standards of the creator of the universe and you. He gives you a free pass; but you must recognize and deal with your sin His way or you will never find the Way, the truth and the Life, which is Jesus Christ.

Human wisdom is foolishness to God (paraphrased).

One of the great things of being a Christian is we know how the earth and universe were created and all that is in them, we know where the future is heading, and we know that all humans are eternal beings created in His image, but the bad news is that we know that most people will reject God and thus chose eternal torment rather than eternal bliss; this is how folloish man is.

 

[benedictus2]

Or they simply know that their religion contradicts it but don’t think it’s wrong.

But their opinion does not determine what is right or wrong.

Actually they are. In Leviticus, the same part of the bible that condems homosexuality, eating lobster is called an abomination. All of these other things are found in the bible as well.

Yes, but not in the NT.

The day civil law is derived from biblical law is the day adulterous people are punished by being stoned to death.

Maan, you call yourself a Christian and you do not know that Christ put a stop to that? That is one of the best known stories in the Bible.

Point out to me one spot in this entire thread where I suggested gay marriage was a Christian practice.

If you claim to be Christian and you are advocating for gay marriage, what else is one to deduce except to believe that you think that this is not against Christianity.

Are you suggesting homosexuals are the same as pedophiles?

I am saying that just because some people who commit sinX are nice does not make sinX permissible. When are you going to get that?

Just because some peadophiles are “nice” will never make paedophilia right.
Just because some homosexuals are “nice” will never make the homosexual act good.

 

[apromisemade]

But their opinion does not determine what is right or wrong.

My point is there are tons of people out there who justify non-Christian behavior to themselves and call themselves Christian at the same time.

Yes, but not in the NT.

Ya, actually they are, St. Paul, the same man who so clearly condemed homosexual behavior, also called eating lobster an abomination.

Maan, you call yourself a Christian and you do not know that Christ put a stop to that? That is one of the best known stories in the Bible.

He put a stop to one person being stoned. There are multiple spots in the Bible that explicitly state that if a person engages in X sin they shall be stoned to death.

If you claim to be Christian and you are advocating for gay marriage, what else is one to deduce except to believe that you think that this is not against Christianity.

Your logic if very skewed. My favorite food is grapes, could you then deduce that eating grapes is a Christian practice?

I am saying that just because some people who commit sinX are nice does not make sinX permissible. When are you going to get that?

Just because some peadophiles are “nice” will never make paedophilia right.
Just because some homosexuals are “nice” will never make the homosexual act good.

And I am saying you are drawing comparisons between people who engage in sins that destroy other lives and homosexuals who for all you know have never harmed a soul. That’s a very ignorant and unkind thing to do.

 

[benedictus2]

My point is there are tons of people out there who justify non-Christian behavior to themselves and call themselves Christian at the same time.

It is not what they call themselves that matter. It is whether they are actually are. I could say I am the queen of England but that would not make me one.

Ya, actually they are, St. Paul, the same man who so clearly condemed homosexual behavior, also called eating lobster an abomination.

Peter’s vision had put an end to that.

He put a stop to one person being stoned. There are multiple spots in the Bible that explicitly state that if a person engages in X sin they shall be stoned to death.

Not after Jesus.

Your logic if very skewed. My favorite food is grapes, could you then deduce that eating grapes is a Christian practice?

Huh! What has that got to do with what I wrote. Gay sex is a Christian no-no. Eating grapes is neither Christian nor un-Christian. Sorry, but it is your logic that is skewed.

And I am saying you are drawing comparisons between people who engage in sins that destroy other lives and homosexuals who for all you know have never harmed a soul.

Destroying “other” lives is not what makes a sin a sin. Also, that is because you look at “lives” as in physical lives. Very secular and limited view of life.

Sin destroys lives, period. That is why the wages of sin is death. The homosexual act is a sin, ergo, it destroys lives.

That’s a very ignorant and unkind thing to do.

Neither ignorant nor unkind. Just stating facts. The truth does not hurt unless it ought to.

You on the other hand have been trying to rationalize a sin. We never ever rationalize a good. Only that which is evil needs rationalizing; to enable us to live with ourselves when we commit them.

 

[apromisemade]

It is not what they call themselves that matter. It is whether they are actually are. I could say I am the queen of England but that would not make me one.

There are many who engage in non-Christian behavior. Can you make them do right? Does that give you the right to condemn them? Only one perfect Christian ever walked this earth. To decide if someone sins in error or in defiance is do judge their very heart.

Peter’s vision had put an end to that.

Not after Jesus.

So then it is okay to disregard certain portions of the Bible because there are other parts that negate them? Thank you for agreeing with me.

Huh! What has that got to do with what I wrote. Gay sex is a Christian no-no. Eating grapes is neither Christian nor un-Christian. Sorry, but it is your logic that is skewed.

The point is it makes no sense to assume I believe homosexuality is a Christian practice just because I call myself a Christian. I didn’t go to Church for twelve years because my parents stopped taking me when I was eight. I certainly wouldn’t claim that refraining from going to Church is a Christian practice. In one sentance you tell me I have a right to believe what I want but then ask me not to claim homosexuality is a Christian practice, which I can’t by your logic because I am in a double bind by believing what I want and loving the Lord Jesus at the same time.

Destroying “other” lives is not what makes a sin a sin. Also, that is because you look at “lives” as in physical lives. Very secular and limited view of life.

Sin destroys lives, period. That is why the wages of sin is death. The homosexual act is a sin, ergo, it destroys lives.

You are once again making presumptions. I was speaking strictly in the context of murder and rape. Those do in fact destroy lives, physically and emotionally.

Not everybody is a Catholic or even a Christian, therefore they may not necessarily believe that their souls are condemned for doing this or that. Heck, they may not even believe there is an afterlife. It is for them I am advocating. No one should be forced to conform to a doctrine or way of life they do not accept in their heart.

Neither ignorant nor unkind. Just stating facts. The truth does not hurt unless it ought to.

You on the other hand have been trying to rationalize a sin. We never ever rationalize a good. Only that which is evil needs rationalizing; to enable us to live with ourselves when we commit them.

You’ve made your position clear, you are arguing that it is a fact that homosexuals are on the same level as murderers and pedophiles.

Human beings are flawed and selfish creatures by nature, good always needs rationalizing. Good or evil has nothing to do with this anyway. Not everyone agrees with you as to what evil is or if there is even such a thing. But regardless of what they believe they should have equal rights to pursue happieness under the law that is meant to take into account the needs and rights of all citizens, not just Catholics.

And before you try to argue that someone could pursue happieness by trying to assault or rape someone else, I will say that unlike such things, two gay people being in a relationship never hurt anyone. That is the difference, homosexuality does not hurt other people.

 

[benedictus2]

There are many who engage in non-Christian behavior. Can you make them do right? Does that give you the right to condemn them? Only one perfect Christian ever walked this earth. To decide if someone sins in error or in defiance is do judge their very heart.

No I am not judging their heart. Only God can do that. I am judging what they do. And that we can very well judge because that is objective. It is not judgmental to call a sin what it is… a sin.

Neither am I condemning them. Humanity is weak. But to say that because we are weak then we must cease calling sins, sins, is ridiculous.

When you say that something that is sinful in Christianity is not sinful then how can you claim to be Christian.

If I were to commit adultery yet know and say that adultery is wrong then I can still claim to be Christian just not very good at following its doctrines.

But once I commit adultery and say that it is okay and it is not a sin, then I cease to be a Christian.

I hope you get the difference there. You fall in the latter category by saying that gay marriage is okay because you are in effect saying that the homosexual act is okay and permissible.

So then it is okay to disregard certain portions of the Bible because there are other parts that negate them? Thank you for agreeing with me.

No. But Christ clearly fulfilled the law. To be Christian is to follow Christ. As Christians we are no longer required to be circumcised or follow other Jewish customs, but we do acknowledge that the root of Christianity is Jewish. So therefore we can eat four legged animals with hooves etc, etc, but sorry to disappoint you homosexuality as a lifestyle is still OUT.

The point is it makes no sense to assume I believe homosexuality is a Christian practice just because I call myself a Christian.

Well then how can you promote homosexual marriage when it is completely in conflict with Christian values and still call yourself a christian. David McDonald who has built a website called Catholic bridge says he is a homosexual and yet he knows that homossexual sex is down right wrong. Him, I can definitely call a Christian, because should he fall and commit this sin, at least he know that it is a sin, a disordered act.

You are once again making presumptions. I was speaking strictly in the context of murder and rape. Those do in fact destroy lives, physically and emotionally.

And once again you miss the point. You are basically saying that what makes an act sinful or not is whether it destroy lives, physically or emotionally. Natural disasters do that but they are not sins.
The homosexual lifestyle destroy the lives emotionally and physically of the homosexual.

Only a very secular mindset would think that a gay lifestyle does not destroy lifves physically and emotionally.

N ot everybody is a Catholic or even a Christian, therefore they may not necessarily believe that their souls are condemned for doing this or that.

But you claim to be Christian.

Heck, they may not even believe there is an afterlife. It is for them I am advocating. No one should be forced to conform to a doctrine or way of life they do not accept in their heart.

I am sure the paedophiles who “sincerely believe that they are loving this children” will agree with you.

I am sure the adulterers who “sincerely believe that they are loving their paramours” will agree with you.

I am sure the polygamist cults will agree with you.

You’ve made your position clear, you are arguing that it is a fact that homosexuals are on the same level as murderers and pedophiles.

No, I am showing you the fallacy in your argument. You just keep failing to get it. Or insist on failing to get it.

Human beings are flawed and selfish creatures by nature, good always needs rationalizing.

Good does not need rationalizing. Evil does.
We are wired toward the good, to do what is good. To be able to do evil, what we do is we rationalize it to make it look good. Otherwise we would not be able to do it at all.

I’ve show above how some sins are rationalized by their perpetrators.

Good or evil has nothing to do with this anyway. Not everyone agrees with you as to what evil is or if there is even such a thing.

That is rather interesting for someone who claims to be a Christian to say.

People do not have to agree with me as to what is good or evil. They only have to conform to Gods’ will as to what is good or evil. As a Christian, I would have thought that you would think along those lines but it seems not. You prefer to be your own arbiter of morality.

But regardless of what they believe they should have equal rights to pursue happieness under the law that is meant to take into account the needs and rights of all citizens, not just Catholics.

Equal rights does not mean same rights. Morality is not about equality but what is right or wrong.

And before you try to argue that someone could pursue happieness by trying to assault or rape someone else, I will say that unlike such things, two gay people being in a relationship never hurt anyone. That is the difference, homosexuality does not hurt other people.

Two gay people in a homosexual relationship hurt more people more than you think because they proclaiming to the world that this SIN IS OKAY.

 

[apromisemade]

No I am not judging their heart. Only God can do that. I am judging what they do. And that we can very well judge because that is objective. It is not judgmental to call a sin what it is… a sin.

Neither am I condemning them. Humanity is weak. But to say that because we are weak then we must cease calling sins, sins, is ridiculous.

When you say that something that is sinful in Christianity is not sinful then how can you claim to be Christian.

If I were to commit adultery yet know and say that adultery is wrong then I can still claim to be Christian just not very good at following its doctrines.

But once I commit adultery and say that it is okay and it is not a sin, then I cease to be a Christian.

Once again, I never once said that homosexuality is a Christian practice. You completely ignored my example when I said that I did not go to church for over ten years, which is obviously a Christian practice. But I still called myself a Christian. I know homosexuality is not a Christian practice. And let’s assume for a second this semantical argument is right, that I cannot say I am Christian because I don’t match the dictionary definition. So what? What’s the implication? Am I supposed to stop praying to God? Am I supposed to stop loving Christ? Am I supposed to stop trying to love my fellow man as Christ loved us?
I don’t have any plans to do so.

No. But Christ clearly fulfilled the law. To be Christian is to follow Christ. As Christians we are no longer required to be circumcised or follow other Jewish customs, but we do acknowledge that the root of Christianity is Jewish. So therefore we can eat four legged animals with hooves etc, etc, but sorry to disappoint you homosexuality as a lifestyle is still OUT.

Once again, thank you for agreeing with me. This simply a rational for ignoring some parts of the Bible but agreeing with others, which is only logical anyway.

SIZE=3]And once again you miss the point. You are basically saying that what makes an act sinful or not is whether it destroy lives, physically or emotionally. Natural disasters do that but they are not sins.

Once again you are putting words in my mouth. I am saying what makes a human act unlawful is weather it hurts someone else.

The homosexual lifestyle destroy the lives emotionally and physically of the homosexual.

Only a very secular mindset would think that a gay lifestyle does not destroy lifves physically and emotionally.

Care to offer any objective evidence to back that statement up?

I am sure the paedophiles who “sincerely believe that they are loving this children” will agree with you.

I am sure the adulterers who “sincerely believe that they are loving their paramours” will agree with you.

Once again, pedophilia and adultery are not the same as homosexuality because they are not inherently harmful to anyone outside of the person. I am speaking in the context of modern day law and not biblical law. Not everyone believes in what the Bible teaches, but are still productive and responsible members of humanity, therefore under the law their needs must be considered as well.

Good does not need rationalizing. Evil does.
We are wired toward the good, to do what is good. To be able to do evil, what we do is we rationalize it to make it look good. Otherwise we would not be able to do it at all.

I’ve show above how some sins are rationalized by their perpetrators.

Once again, care to offer any evidence that human beings are inherently good and righteouss by nature? If we were we wouldn’t (to quote an old novel) “need a book to tell [us] the difference between right and wrong.”

People do not have to agree with me as to what is good or evil. They only have to conform to Gods’ will as to what is good or evil. As a Christian, I would have thought that you would think along those lines but it seems not. You prefer to be your own arbiter of morality.

Equal rights does not mean same rights. Morality is not about equality but what is right or wrong.

Two gay people in a homosexual relationship hurt more people more than you think because they proclaiming to the world that this SIN IS OKAY.

We are living in a country and society where people do not have to conform to a belief system they do not agree with to recieve equal consideration under the law. You share this country with Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, Pagans, the list goes on. If you are going to base law on morality than you are treading in very uneven water because everyone has a slightly different definition. Just because someone does not identify with Christianity does not mean they are automatically an evil person. I have faith in God but I respect those who do not because I am not so arrogant as to think I am above them because I attend church.

Homosexuality is not a Christian practice, but not all homosexuals are Christian.

This conversation is growing a little repetitive, since you seem to think that if someone doesn’t agree with you than they must just not understand. I think I will unsubscribe from this thread and spare myself the tedium.

 

[exan]

Once again, I never once said that homosexuality is a Christian practice. You completely ignored my example when I said that I did not go to church for over ten years, which is obviously a Christian practice. But I still called myself a Christian. I know homosexuality is not a Christian practice. And let’s assume for a second this semantical argument is right, that I cannot say I am Christian because I don’t match the dictionary definition. So what? What’s the implication? Am I supposed to stop praying to God? Am I supposed to stop loving Christ? Am I supposed to stop trying to love my fellow man as Christ loved us?
I don’t have any plans to do so.

Once again, thank you for agreeing with me. This simply a rational for ignoring some parts of the Bible but agreeing with others, which is only logical anyway.

Once again you are putting words in my mouth. I am saying what makes a human act unlawful is weather it hurts someone else.

Care to offer any objective evidence to back that statement up?

Once again, pedophilia and adultery are not the same as homosexuality because they are not inherently harmful to anyone outside of the person. I am speaking in the context of modern day law and not biblical law. Not everyone believes in what the Bible teaches, but are still productive and responsible members of humanity, therefore under the law their needs must be considered as well.

Once again, care to offer any evidence that human beings are inherently good and righteouss by nature? If we were we wouldn’t (to quote an old novel) “need a book to tell [us] the difference between right and wrong.”

We are living in a country and society where people do not have to conform to a belief system they do not agree with to recieve equal consideration under the law. You share this country with Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, Pagans, the list goes on. If you are going to base law on morality than you are treading in very uneven water because everyone has a slightly different definition. Just because someone does not identify with Christianity does not mean they are automatically an evil person. I have faith in God but I respect those who do not because I am not so arrogant as to think I am above them because I attend church.

Homosexuality is not a Christian practice, but not all homosexuals are Christian.

This conversation is growing a little repetitive, since you seem to think that if someone doesn’t agree with you than they must just not understand. I think I will unsubscribe from this thread and spare myself the tedium.

Great to see there are christians here who realise not everyone is a christian and still care for others. Who think like a human beeing and cares for other people instead of just their OWN spot in heaven. Quite some posters here are very extreme in their views. I have to say after spending a month or so on this forum, a lot of ppl here show a horrible side of religion, are judgemental, hatefull, intolerant towards ppl. They make christian religion something evil. Christ message of “love”? Many here are so obsessed with judging I see no “love” anywhere. Its good there are people like apromisemade, who still care about ppl, and are tolerant, but many are not. Some people here are fundamentalists, selfish and judgemental like crazy, even to “fellow christians”. “Thou shalt nog judge”. Right. While I keep having no issues with not judgemental religious, I am very well beginning to see why anti-theism is getting more and more popular, religion indeed can be a base for fundamentalism and hate. So far for the great message of “love”. Really disgusting. I’m leaving here too, this forum is way too extreme for my taste. No wonder atheists here become antitheists.

 

[benedictus2]

Great to see there are christians here who realise not everyone is a christian and still care for others. Who think like a human beeing and cares for other people instead of just their OWN spot in heaven.

If Christians think only of their OWN spot in heaven, they would not be out there trying to convince people of the error of their ways so that they will repent and thus be saved. Others on the other hand would rather not ruffle feather so are quite prepared to leave people in their delusion that what they are donig is morally right.

Quite some posters here are very extreme in their views. I have to say after spending a month or so on this forum, a lot of ppl here show a horrible side of religion, are judgemental, hatefull, intolerant towards ppl.

People here are not judgmental about other people but about sin. Some people however have no clue as to what being judgmental is all about.
One should judge actions, but one cannot judge hearts. Gay sex is action, a sin. That we can certainly judge. As for the homosexual person, only God truly know their hearts.

They make christian religion something evil. Christ message of “love”?

Christ message of “love” was real love. Not the mushy, schmaltzy one. One that is based on Truth because Christ say I am the Truth.

Many here are so obsessed with judging I see no “love” anywhere.

No you won’t see here the mushy feeling that pass for “love”, which is a counterfeit of what real love is all about.

Real love tells it like it is, admonishes the sinner, calls sin what it is sin, but loves the person all the same and enough, to not want them to lose their salvtion by persisting in their evil practices.

Schmaltz is not love.

Its good there are people like apromisemade, who still care about ppl, and are tolerant,

Being tolerant is not necessarily a good thing. Tolerating evil is not a good thing.

“Thou shalt nog judge”. Right.

As I have said above, this applies only to judging people. Not actions. One can judge actions. One can say that murder is evil, that adultery is evil, that lying is evil. And no one will ssay that it is wrong to do that.

You are confusing the issue.

While I keep having no issues with not judgemental religious, I am very well beginning to see why anti-theism is getting more and more popular, religion indeed can be a base for fundamentalism and hate. So far for the great message of “love”. Really disgusting. I’m leaving here too, this forum is way too extreme for my taste. No wonder atheists here become antitheists.

Atheists cannot be anti theists for how can one be against something one does not acknowledge exists.

 

[benedictus2]

Once again, I never once said that homosexuality is a Christian practice. You completely ignored my example when I said that I did not go to church for over ten years, which is obviously a Christian practice. But I still called myself a Christian. I know homosexuality is not a Christian practice. And let’s assume for a second this semantical argument is right, that I cannot say I am Christian because I don’t match the dictionary definition. So what? What’s the implication? Am I supposed to stop praying to God? Am I supposed to stop loving Christ? Am I supposed to stop trying to love my fellow man as Christ loved us?
I don’t have any plans to do so.

We are not talking about implications. All I am saying is one cannot say one is a Christian if one believe something that is contray to Christian belief.

I did not say you should stop praying to God.

Once again, thank you for agreeing with me. This simply a rational for ignoring some parts of the Bible but agreeing with others, which is only logical anyway.

You really don’t get it do you. Christ fulfilled the law. If you still don’t get that forget it. I am done explaining myself on that one.

Once again you are putting words in my mouth. I am saying what makes a human act unlawful is weather it hurts someone else.

Once again you are wrong. Whether an act hurts someone or not is not necessarily what makes a human act unlawful in the eyes of God. God alone has the right to say what is and is not lawful and God has spoken with regards homosexual sex.

 

[benedictus2]

Care to offer any objective evidence to back that statement up?

The act itself is depraved. Depraved acts destroy their perpetrators. A liar destroys himself by lying, an adulterer by his cheating, a murderer by his killing and so forth.
Ahh, but perhaps do not think spriritual destruction of oneself is really destruction.

Once again, pedophilia and adultery are not the same as homosexuality because they are not inherently harmful to anyone outside of the person.

Whether we harm others or we harm ourselves it remains a sin. We are suppose to not violate ourselves because we are temples of the Holy Spirit.

I am speaking in the context of modern day law and not biblical law. Not everyone believes in what the Bible teaches, but are still productive and responsible members of humanity, therefore under the law their needs must be considered as well.

Mordern day law is based on Biblical law because all laws are supposed to have their roots in God’s law.

This is why we find the Sharia law abhorent. Because it is so against what we know as lawful. And the only way we can compare is because western law is essentially Biblical law.

If we say we should respect each religion’s law, does that mean we should allow Muslims to pracitce sharia law in America. After all we are advocating for equality, right?

Once again, care to offer any evidence that human beings are inherently good and righteouss by nature?

God created everything, human beings included. God does not make antying evil. Genesis; God saw that it was good. This line was repeated after each act of creation.

If we were we wouldn’t (to quote an old novel) “need a book to tell [us] the difference between right and wrong.”
How about the fact this. We all tend to rationalize our faults. When we commit something awful the first thing that we think of is how to wiggle out of it.This we do because we know that it is wrong. If it is good, we would not be on the back foot trying to justify it.

Unless one is psychopath or a socio path, human beings are inclined to do good. So when they do evil, they try to make excuses for it so it will not seem so evil.

We are living in a country and society where people do not have to conform to a belief system they do not agree with to recieve equal consideration under the law. You share this country with Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, Pagans, the list goes on. [/qutoe]
Let’s put that to the test. Take the Muslims for example. Should we allow them to conform to their beliefs if their beliefs are contrary to ours? Honestly? Would you really like to see a woman stoned to death, or a thief’s hands chopped and the list goes on, just because they do not believe in our laws? Should we in the name of equality allow them to do that?

This conversation is growing a little repetitive, since you seem to think that if someone doesn’t agree with you than they must just not understand. I think I will unsubscribe from this thread and spare myself the tedium.

If you really want to spare yourself the tedium all you had to do was not respond and I will not respond back . Simple really.

What you mean is you want to have (or pretend to have) the last word that is why you are unsubscribing after your post.

 

[Chochy]

If Christians think only of their OWN spot in heaven, they would not be out there trying to convince people of the error of their ways so that they will repent and thus be saved. Others on the other hand would rather not ruffle feather so are quite prepared to leave people in their delusion that what they are donig is morally right.

People here are not judgmental about other people but about sin. Some people however have no clue as to what being judgmental is all about.
One should judge actions, but one cannot judge hearts. Gay sex is action, a sin. That we can certainly judge. As for the homosexual person, only God truly know their hearts.

Christ message of “love” was real love. Not the mushy, schmaltzy one. One that is based on Truth because Christ say I am the Truth.

No you won’t see here the mushy feeling that pass for “love”, which is a counterfeit of what real love is all about.

Real love tells it like it is, admonishes the sinner, calls sin what it is sin, but loves the person all the same and enough, to not want them to lose their salvtion by persisting in their evil practices.

Schmaltz is not love.

Being tolerant is not necessarily a good thing. Tolerating evil is not a good thing.

As I have said above, this applies only to judging people. Not actions. One can judge actions. One can say that murder is evil, that adultery is evil, that lying is evil. And no one will ssay that it is wrong to do that.

You are confusing the issue.

Atheists cannot be anti theists for how can one be against something one does not acknowledge exists.

People here can be very judgmental of other people.

God is love. He recognizes the love we have for one another and forgives us of our sins. I believe he forgives us of all our sins. I don’t think he forgives some and not others.

We call God our Father. As a father, I might be blessed enough to have three sons. I love my three sons with all my heart. My wife and I have raised them in a loving home.

Perhaps one son is now married and has two children. Another might live with his girlfriend and have two children out of wedlock. They do not believe in marriage. Perhaps my third son lives with another man in a homosexual relationship. They are hoping to participate in a same-sex marriage soon. They want to adopt children. I may be sad that these options are available to them.

Do I agree with all the choices my three sons have made for their lives? Probably not. Have their decisions caused me heartache, grief, shame and even despair at times? I’ll bet they have. Will I attend the celebration that is planned for the union between my homosexual son and his partner? Maybe not. This might make my son sad and angry but it isn’t something I am capable of accepting. I’ve communicated my position, beliefs and concerns for my sons very clearly. There are many issues we have had to agree to disagree on. Do I love my sons and their children any less? If I love them less because they have made choices that I am against, who benefits?

Does God love us less when we go against Him? Does He love us less when we are angry with Him?

I believe in Jesus. I believe He will come again to judge the living and the dead. All I can do is pray that my loved ones make choices that will allow us to be together for all of eternity.

 

[JohnMPhilomena]

People here can be very judgmental of other people.

God is love. He recognizes the love we have for one another and forgives us of our sins. I believe he forgives us of all our sins. I don’t think he forgives some and not others.

We call God our Father. As a father, I might be blessed enough to have three sons. I love my three sons with all my heart. My wife and I have raised them in a loving home.

Perhaps one son is now married and has two children. Another might live with his girlfriend and have two children out of wedlock. They do not believe in marriage. Perhaps my third son lives with another man in a homosexual relationship. They are hoping to participate in a same-sex marriage soon. They want to adopt children. I may be sad that these options are available to them.

Do I agree with all the choices my three sons have made for their lives? Probably not. Have their decisions caused me heartache, grief, shame and even despair at times? I’ll bet they have. Will I attend the celebration that is planned for the union between my homosexual son and his partner? Maybe not. This might make my son sad and angry but it isn’t something I am capable of accepting. I’ve communicated my position, beliefs and concerns for my sons very clearly. There are many issues we have had to agree to disagree on. Do I love my sons and their children any less? If I love them less because they have made choices that I am against, who benefits?

Does God love us less when we go against Him? Does He love us less when we are angry with Him?

I believe in Jesus. I believe He will come again to judge the living and the dead. All I can do is pray that my loved ones make choices that will allow us to be together for all of eternity.

Very well said.

Peace,
John Marie Philomena