Here is your chance Protestants!

[Lumen_Gentium]

I do not intend to join in the discussion of giving the Protestants the chance to assess the church history which the Catholic Church can trace back to the Apostles.

However, I would like to correct your distorted view on the “Rock” of the church because this issue is a theological foundation of the Holy Catholic Church.

Since you cannot and have not found St. Augustine’s commentary on John’s passage regarding the Rock to backup your distorted views and the Johanine christianity or theology and the two types of Christians you were talking about here, I suggest you to go and read the catholic.com’s commentary on the rock (Peter and the Papacy). Here is the link:

catholic.com/library/peter_and_the_papacy.asp

Please read carefully, and pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance and understanding.

I quote St. Augustine and his affirmation in Peter’s primacy from this link:
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9707frs.asp

AUGUSTINE:

“Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear ‘I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven’” (* Sermons* 295:2 [A.D. 411]).

You can read more about Peter, the Rock on these pages:

catholic.com/search.asp?searchType=file&target=peter

For how can we urge other christians to join the true, authoritative, and Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic church if we have a distorted view on our church’s very own foundation? But the foundation is solid and has withstand 2000 years and growing until this very day. God Bless.

PAX

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Lumen Gentium:

Since you cannot and have not found St. Augustine’s commentary…

In the “Retractions” which St Augustine wrote in his mature years to correct the theological errors in his earlier writings, he wrote that he had come to believe that Peter is NOT the Rock.

However, he also said that if others wanted to interpret the verse in that way, they had that freedom. But the fact is that the greatest theologian of the West personally denied that the Rock is Peter.

 

[vstar]

Heretic–A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.

The dictionary said it, not me.

The Oxford English Dictionary says:
Heretic, n. Holder of an unorthodox opinion (originally in the matter of religion)

Heresy, n. Opinion contrary to the orthodox doctrine of the Christian Church, or to the accepted doctrine of any subject.

What dictionary did you use to get your silly definition of “Heretic”?

 

[dennisknapp]

vstar:

The Oxford English Dictionary says:
Heretic, n. Holder of an unorthodox opinion (originally in the matter of religion)

Heresy, n. Opinion contrary to the orthodox doctrine of the Christian Church, or to the accepted doctrine of any subject.

What dictionary did you use to get your silly definition of “Heretic”?

If you were a Christian before 1600 you were a Catholic Christian (either Roman or Eastern Orthodox). There was no other option.

Peace

 

[oriel36]

Lumen Gentium:

I
Please read carefully, and pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance and understanding.

PAX

The Holy Spirit is not an external entity,the Holy Spirit is that Intuitive faculty which sorts and sifts all facets of Christ and Christianity.Once a person is born into the Spirit,come what may,there is no way to become unborn.

If you do not like Augustine there is always Paul,the man who never met Jesus in the flesh but could judge Peter.

"for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ…Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? "usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians3.htm

You use slogans like " pray to the Holy Spirit" carelessly as if you can’t comprehend the Trinity.

 

[dennisknapp]

CatherineofA:

Needed for well rounded study=Variety of historians who substantiate their views on documented evidence. Did you base all of your education in this matter in what you were instructed to cover at ISU? Did you conduct any personal study? Consult non ISU writers or professors? What about professors in your ISU history department outside of religious studies? I am not saying that you could not have had a good education. I have not said anything about that. You just stated that the historical evidence led you to embrace Catholicism. I just thought that you probably put a lot of study into your conversion examining a wide variety of information that included Catholic and non Catholic support using, or attempting to use, historical evidence. If I had all the answers and was sure one way or another, I wouldn’t be asking you. Could you please list some of the books or manuscripts you consulted (Catholic, non-Catholic, secular history, etc.) to come to your conclusions. I would like to read or consider what you used. I am looking to persue some resources. Thanks!

Here are a few of the books I used.

Writings of the Fathers

The Apostolic Fathers, Ed. by J.B. Lightfoot.
Early Christian Fathers, Ed. by Cyril C. RIchardson.
The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1-3 Ed. William A. Jurgens.
Christology of the Later Fathers, Ed. Edward R. Hardy.
Eusebious: The History of the Church.
A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, Ed. David W. Bercot.

History of the Church

The Christian Fathers, by Maurice Wiles.
The Doctors of the Church, by Bernard McGinn.
Doctrine and Practices in the Early Church, by Stuart G. Hall.
Church History, John C. Dwyer.
Christians as the Romans saw Them, Robert L. Wilken.
Hidden Gospels, by Philip Jerkins.
The Medieval Church, by Carl A. Volz.
Faith in the Medieval World, by G.R. Evans.

Catholic Apologetics

Crossing the Tiber, by Stephen K. Ray.
Apologia Pro Vita Sua, By John Henry Newman.
Letters Between a Catholic and an Evangelical, by Fr. John R. Waiss and James G. McCarthy.
Controversies, Ed. Karl Keating.

Hope this helps.

Peace

 

[dennisknapp]

oriel36:

The Holy Spirit is not an external entity,the Holy Spirit is that Intuitive faculty which sorts and sifts all facets of Christ and Christianity.Once a person is born into the Spirit,come what may,there is no way to become unborn.

If you do not like Augustine there is always Paul,the man who never met Jesus in the flesh but could judge Peter.

"for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ…Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? "usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians3.htm

You use slogans like " pray to the Holy Spirit" carelessly as if you can’t comprehend the Trinity.

Wait, the Holy Spirit is not an external entity, but a “Intuitive faculty?” Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is not a Person, but some kind of holy sifter?

And you comprehend the Trinity? Wow. Please, tell us what the Trinity is, if you can comprehend it so well?

You are way off my friend, please get a hold of a Catechism.

Peace

 

[oriel36]

dennisknapp:

Wait, the Holy Spirit is not an external entity, but a “Intuitive faculty?” Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is not a Person, but some kind of holy sifter?

And you comprehend the Trinity? Wow. Please, tell us what the Trinity is, if you can comprehend it so well?

You are way off my friend, please get a hold of a Catechism.

Peace

Physics numbskulls use that phrase ‘crack open a physics book’ as a means to a dull and dour end and now it appears as a Christian variant using the Cathechism.Any person who uses that tactic is no Christian much less a Catholic.

You know little of the Apostolic heritage of Christianity given that even if the Trinity cannot be rendered within intellectual bounds,it far exceeds it as part of the Christian Way and has been known to all Christians stretching back to Paul and the Johannine Christians.

There are so many descriptions of the action of the Holy Spirit ,some better than others that it does constitute a body of literature.The intellectual poorness of today’s way of guessing how the mind works and how it is influenced is almost hilarious compared to the exquisite seperating and meshing of natural reason and Spiritual Intuition known to Christians of all ages but the modern mind cannot bear the negations which are required to get to the affirmations and life becomes a fountain rather than a cistern.

CHAPTER IX
OF UNITY OF HEART

Of this ardour there springs unity of heart; for we cannot achieve true unity unless the Spirit of God blows to a flame His fire in our hearts. For this fire makes one with itself and like to itself all that it can master and re-shape.

Unity is this: that a man feel himself to be gathered together with all his powers in the unity of his heart. Unity brings inward peace and restfulness of heart. Unity of heart is a bond which draws together body and soul, heart and senses, and all the outward and inward powers and encloses them in the union of love.

ccel.org/r/ruysbroeck/adornment/adornment.htm

All these works I have shown you I once needed to set my experiences in order but I always present them with pride that they are part of my Christian heritage and then I go on to add my own contribution in another way.

 

[dennisknapp]

oriel36:

Physics numbskulls use that phrase ‘crack open a physics book’ as a means to a dull and dour end and now it appears as a Christian variant using the Cathechism.Any person who uses that tactic is no Christian much less a Catholic.

You know little of the Apostolic heritage of Christianity given that even if the Trinity cannot be rendered within intellectual bounds,it far exceeds it as part of the Christian Way and has been known to all Christians stretching back to Paul and the Johannine Christians.

There are so many descriptions of the action of the Holy Spirit ,some better than others that it does constitute a body of literature.The intellectual poorness of today’s way of guessing how the mind works and how it is influenced is almost hilarious compared to the exquisite seperating and meshing of natural reason and Spiritual Intuition known to Christians of all ages but the modern mind cannot bear the negations which are required to get to the affirmations and life becomes a fountain rather than a cistern.

CHAPTER IX
OF UNITY OF HEART

Of this ardour there springs unity of heart; for we cannot achieve true unity unless the Spirit of God blows to a flame His fire in our hearts. For this fire makes one with itself and like to itself all that it can master and re-shape.

Unity is this: that a man feel himself to be gathered together with all his powers in the unity of his heart. Unity brings inward peace and restfulness of heart. Unity of heart is a bond which draws together body and soul, heart and senses, and all the outward and inward powers and encloses them in the union of love.

ccel.org/r/ruysbroeck/adornment/adornment.htm

All these works I have shown you I once needed to set my experiences in order but I always present them with pride that they are part of my Christian heritage and then I go on to add my own contribution in another way.

Again, you have not answered my question: Is the Holy Spirit a Person or just a holy sifter?

Peace

 

[oriel36]

dennisknapp:

Again, you have not answered my question: Is the Holy Spirit a Person or just a holy sifter?

Peace

The Holy Spirit answers all questions

“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth.”

usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john16.htm

These words mean nothing to you or you would look on them with the base reasoning as is your custom and decide a meaning which dilutes it for your convenience or go to the other extreme and start guessing an answer.

There is not a trace of symbolic meaning in associating the Spirit and the Advocate for it is a direct declaration by Jesus.For those who can comprehend it,it is a Living miracle,truly !.

"I have told you this while I am with you. The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name–he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you. Peace 12 I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid. You heard me tell you, ‘I am going away and I will come back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater than I. "

usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john14.htm

Whether others can remain silent and watch the sacred writings cut to pieces so you can be justified is no longer my concern.In some ways it is good to remove the duplicity that would have somebody other than Christ at the center of faith and to this end I have presented orthodoxy while you adhere to something equivalent to the thinking of the Alogi.

 

[dennisknapp]

oriel36:

The Holy Spirit answers all questions

“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth.”

usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john16.htm

These words mean nothing to you or you would look on them with the base reasoning as is your custom and decide a meaning which dilutes it for your convenience or go to the other extreme and start guessing an answer.

There is not a trace of symbolic meaning in associating the Spirit and the Advocate for it is a direct declaration by Jesus.For those who can comprehend it,it is a Living miracle,truly !.

"I have told you this while I am with you. The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name–he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you. Peace 12 I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid. You heard me tell you, ‘I am going away and I will come back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater than I. "

usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john14.htm

Whether others can remain silent and watch the sacred writings cut to pieces so you can be justified is no longer my concern.In some ways it is good to remove the duplicity that would have somebody other than Christ at the center of faith and to this end I have presented orthodoxy while you adhere to something equivalent to the thinking of the Alogi.

I have never denied the Logos, so I am no Alogi. But you have never once answered any question directed at you with a straight answer. Why?

What orthodoxy have presented? I see no quotations from any Councils, Early Fathers (aside from an obscure Augustine qoute), or the CCC. These represent true Catholic orthodox teaching, not what you have been espousing on this thread.

Please, answer the following with a simple yes or no:

Should Protestant be allowed to take communion in the Catholic Church?

Is the Holy Spirit a Person?

Peace

 

[oriel36]

dennisknapp:

I have never denied the Logos, so I am no Alogi. But you have never once answered any question directed at you with a straight answer. Why?

What orthodoxy have presented? I see no quotations from any Councils, Early Fathers (aside from an obscure Augustine qoute), or the CCC. These represent true Catholic orthodox teaching, not what you have been espousing on this thread.

Please, answer the following with a simple yes or no:

Should Protestant be allowed to take communion in the Catholic Church?

Is the Holy Spirit a Person?

Peace

You do indeed represent the nightmare of the Alogi and your numbers are increasing.You hear the phrase ‘Logos’ and imagine that it shows you have some understanding above Catholics of simple faith but all you will ever do is amplify your baseness as your ‘question’ display little feeling for Christian heritage.

The Word cannot be affirmed or denied save that it comes as a Gift from God.It tells you directly.

The lamp of Western thinking is burning low at present as we pass through and the world is worse for it.The easy part is mistaking trivia for substance and indeed with that curious style which marks a legalistic culture,you look for evidence where only common sense is required.

I cannot profess that I am alarmed with the rise of the Alogi such as yourself and their eagerness to appeal to the cathecism but I can understand it as a consequence of a contemporary fad with a legalistic culture and the Church as a some sort of spiritual court willing to punish or reward from a given standard of behavior.That is not and never was my Church,for even though my Catholic community dwindles through the ageing of the community those great people by their presence never resorted to making themselves feel better by taunting fellow Christians about their practices.

I have answered your questions or rather the answers that are common to all Christians exist in various forms such as daily living,the sacred texts,the community of Christians and above all else the greatest life ever lived.

Christians are so busy with their own comprehension of that life and how it manifests Itself that they have little time to correct others on theirs.I deal with matters which undermine the basic tenets through cunning arguments designed to generate all heat and no light.Taking aim at the empirical tradition and the nightmare abstractions it introduced insofar as people are celebrating cartoon conceptions of natural phenomena reflects in the Western societies inability to comprehend simple Spiritual matters.In other words,where novelty exist and people are in awe of this pretensious nonsense they will have no time for the real Intuitive matters which are felt through the working of Spirit.

 

[dennisknapp]

oriel36:

You do indeed represent the nightmare of the Alogi and your numbers are increasing.You hear the phrase ‘Logos’ and imagine that it shows you have some understanding above Catholics of simple faith but all you will ever do is amplify your baseness as your ‘question’ display little feeling for Christian heritage.

The Word cannot be affirmed or denied save that it comes as a Gift from God.It tells you directly.

The lamp of Western thinking is burning low at present as we pass through and the world is worse for it.The easy part is mistaking trivia for substance and indeed with that curious style which marks a legalistic culture,you look for evidence where only common sense is required.

I cannot profess that I am alarmed with the rise of the Alogi such as yourself and their eagerness to appeal to the cathecism but I can understand it as a consequence of a contemporary fad with a legalistic culture and the Church as a some sort of spiritual court willing to punish or reward from a given standard of behavior.That is not and never was my Church,for even though my Catholic community dwindles through the ageing of the community those great people by their presence never resorted to making themselves feel better by taunting fellow Christians about their practices.

I have answered your questions or rather the answers that are common to all Christians exist in various forms such as daily living,the sacred texts,the community of Christians and above all else the greatest life ever lived.

Christians are so busy with their own comprehension of that life and how it manifests Itself that they have little time to correct others on theirs.I deal with matters which undermine the basic tenets through cunning arguments designed to generate all heat and no light.Taking aim at the empirical tradition and the nightmare abstractions it introduced insofar as people are celebrating cartoon conceptions of natural phenomena reflects in the Western societies inability to comprehend simple Spiritual matters.In other words,where novelty exist and people are in awe of this pretensious nonsense they will have no time for the real Intuitive matters which are felt through the working of Spirit.

A simple yes or no, please.

Peace

 

[Lumen_Gentium]

WHAT???
Who says the Holy Spirit is an external entity???
When all I said was “Pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance.”

For how can I not comprehend the Holy Trinity if I urge you to pray to the Holy Spirit? If one doesn’t comprehend the Holy Trinity, how can one recognize the Holy Spirit?

As much as I never mentioned that I didn’t like St. Augustine (He was actually my favorite saint when I was a kid, but then St. Ignatius of Loyola became my favorite when I turned into a young adult attending a Jesuit university), I urge you to read carefully my post (#220), for nowhere in that post is saying Peter is the foundation. The Catholic Church teaches “Jesus Christ” our Lord and Savior is the “FOUNDER” of the church and thus, affirming Paul in First Corinthians 3:11.

My friend Oriel, my post corrects your distorted view on Peter the Rock affirming Peter as the ROCK, in which this very foundation - the Church, of which Christ is the founder, is built upon.

PAX

oriel36:

The Holy Spirit is not an external entity,the Holy Spirit is that Intuitive faculty which sorts and sifts all facets of Christ and Christianity.Once a person is born into the Spirit,come what may,there is no way to become unborn.

If you do not like Augustine there is always Paul,the man who never met Jesus in the flesh but could judge Peter.

"for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ…Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? "usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians3.htm

You use slogans like " pray to the Holy Spirit" carelessly as if you can’t comprehend the Trinity.

 

[Lumen_Gentium]

Dennis,

I tell you, he cannot answer your simple yes or no simply because he seems to be that good example of a self proclaimed
intellectual theologian, who’s merely going around the bushes in many confusing words, in disguise and in his attempt to distort the truth and therefore confuse and mislead his victims. There are lots of 'em around here, so beware.

PAX

dennisknapp:

A simple yes or no, please.

Peace

 

[jimmy]

oriel36:

The Holy Spirit is not an external entity,the Holy Spirit is that Intuitive faculty which sorts and sifts all facets of Christ and Christianity.Once a person is born into the Spirit,come what may,there is no way to become unborn.

If you do not like Augustine there is always Paul,the man who never met Jesus in the flesh but could judge Peter.

"for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ…Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? "usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians3.htm

You use slogans like " pray to the Holy Spirit" carelessly as if you can’t comprehend the Trinity.

Oriel, it is a heresy to say we can’t pray to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the third person of The Trinity. Here is a prayer to the Holy Spirit by Saint Augustine.

Breathe into me, Holy Spirit, that my thoughts may all be holy. Move in me, Holy Spirit, that my work, too, may be holy. Attract my heart, Holy Spirit, that I may love only what is holy. Strengthen me, Holy Spirit, that I may defend all that is holy. Protect me, Holy Spirit, that I may always be holy.

Saint Augustine

There are several more at this link below. Many of them are by the saints.

ourcatholicfaith.org/prayer/p-holyspirit.html

 

[dennisknapp]

Lumen Gentium:

Dennis,

I tell you, he cannot answer your simple yes or no simply because he seems to be that good example of a self proclaimed
intellectual theologian, who’s merely going around the bushes in many confusing words, in disguise and in his attempt to distort the truth and therefore confuse and mislead his victims. There are lots of 'em around here, so beware.

PAX

I think you are right. Oriel39’s esoteric form of Christianity (if you can call it Christianity) seem totally incomprehensible, so it would follow that he cannot answer a simple question.

Honestly, all of Oriel36’s argument ring of Gnoticism. What does anyone else think?

Peace

 

[oriel36]

Lumen Gentium:

WHAT???
Who says the Holy Spirit is an external entity???
When all I said was “Pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance.”

For how can I not comprehend the Holy Trinity if I urge you to pray to the Holy Spirit? If one doesn’t comprehend the Holy Trinity, how can one recognize the Holy Spirit?

PAX

The Holy Spirit is a gift from God that connects the temporal with the Eternal through the Life of Jesus as both God and man.

We,at least those of us who are truly Christian,judge all things through the ground of the Holy Spirit in knowing where our temporal existence meshes and seperates from our Eternal existence.

You bring all things down to temporal existence and externalise those things such as Jesus,Spirit and God.Normally this is allowed so long as no attempt is made to present this Spiritual deficiency as a true reflection of Christ and Christianity.

You do not pray to the Holy Spirit,the Holy Spirit is that Intuitive guide in connecting Jesus to God and temporal existence to Eternal Life .

"Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God,and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world. "

usccb.org/nab/bible/1john/1john4.htm

Accepting two types of Christians with One Spirit is altogether different that arguing like spoilt children over denominational differences or trivia .You chant the slogan - “pray to the Holy Spirit” for guidance when clearly this looks odd to those who accept the complimentary Christian division as a necessary but provisional situation within Apostolic Christianity.

 

[dennisknapp]

oriel36:

The Holy Spirit is a gift from God that connects the temporal with the Eternal through the Life of Jesus as both God and man.

We,at least those of us who are truly Christian,judge all things through the ground of the Holy Spirit in knowing where our temporal existence meshes and seperates from our Eternal existence.

You bring all things down to temporal existence and externalise those things such as Jesus,Spirit and God.Normally this is allowed so long as no attempt is made to present this Spiritual deficiency as a true reflection of Christ and Christianity.

You do not pray to the Holy Spirit,the Holy Spirit is that Intuitive guide in connecting Jesus to God and temporal existence to Eternal Life .

"Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God,and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world. "

usccb.org/nab/bible/1john/1john4.htm

Accepting two types of Christians with One Spirit is altogether different that arguing like spoilt children over denominational differences or trivia .You chant the slogan - “pray to the Holy Spirit” for guidance when clearly this looks odd to those who accept the complimentary Christian division as a necessary but provisional situation within Apostolic Christianity.

Since when is saying the Holy Spirit is a Person “bring all things down to temporal existence”?

You said:

“You do not pray to the Holy Spirit,the Holy Spirit is that Intuitive guide in connecting Jesus to God and temporal existence to Eternal Life .”

The official teaching of the Catholic Church is:

CCC 685
"To believe in the Holy Spirit is to profess that the Holy Spirit is one of the persons of the Holy Trinity, consubstantial with the Father and the Son: “with the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.”

You my friend do not teach what is orthodox. You are not an Apostolic Christian.

Peace

 

[oriel36]

dennisknapp:

Since when is saying the Holy Spirit is a Person “bring all things down to temporal existence”?

You said:

“You do not pray to the Holy Spirit,the Holy Spirit is that Intuitive guide in connecting Jesus to God and temporal existence to Eternal Life .”

The official teaching of the Catholic Church is:

CCC 685
"To believe in the Holy Spirit is to profess that the Holy Spirit is one of the persons of the Holy Trinity, consubstantial with the Father and the Son: “with the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.”

You my friend do not teach what is orthodox. You are not an Apostolic Christian.

Peace

The Holy Spirit or Advocate is that faculty which connects Jesus and God or temporal life and Eternal Life together and teaches where they mesh and seperate.

The great Divine Will which accepts two types of Christians within the Apostolic community permits the lower interpretation until such time as the Spirit actually becomes manifest as Jesus says it does,not through any decision a person makes but as a gift of God.

The indulgence which facilitates prayer “to the Holy Spirit” is superseded by conversion in the Spirit ,there is no Holy Spirit to pray to because being born in the Spirit it is impossible to become unborn no more than it is possible to become physically unborn.

"111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."77 "
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a3.htm#III

The contemporary version of the Alogi certainly are present and this does present a nightmare.The heritage of contemplative Christianity no longer has place within a Church which is increasingly identified by the rules of the Cathecism which must suit those who have a legalistic bent,at least from the indications I have witnessed in this forum.

Attempting to make the Cathechism important and finding loopholes is about as far removed from Christ and Christianity as possible and where contradictions exists,apply a bit of common sense instead of being rabid.

Those who have remained silent and thought it better to see the sacred Christian writings cut to pieces for the cathechismal purposes should be ashamed of themselves.