Here we go again. Archdiocese being raided by authorities

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I’d imagine most dioceses within the U.S. will be investigated over the next few years, and if San Jose is any indication, coming out with the names of priests won’t stop others from making their own reports. We should get used to this kind of news for at least the next few years.
 
Sad but true. My confirmation Priest left the priesthood under a cloud in the early 70’s. Found out that he died in prison having been convicted of child molestation in the 90’s. this rot is extensive. But we are reminded that this is not just a 20th century nor 21st century problem. Read of St. Peter Damian here:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11764a.htm
 
I think it is time that the lay people take over management of the church, its finances and personnel. Our priests and bishops should concern themselves with religious activities only.

My mom left the church over the child molestation issue about 20 years before her death. She used to be very active in the church, but her opinion was that the church had become a “good old boys” group that protected each other to the detriment of children. At least I got her to see a priest on her death bed and she received the sacraments just prior to her death.

I am in my 60’s now and this is just not the church I grew up with.

I recently started a discussion on how the church needed to change because it is dying here in the U.S. and Europe. The topic was quickly shut down. I guess people were offended by the discussion, but my opinion is that we better start talking openly about the problems and coming up with solutions. The head in the sand approach is not working.
 
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beischel said:
I think it is time that the lay people take over management of the church, its finances and personnel. Our priests and bishops should concern themselves with religious activities only.
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I’m not a fan. It would be way too easy for the lay people doing the management to attempt to leverage finances and personnel management to affect religious change.

Edit: This is before considering that lay people aren’t immune from the same problems that got us here.
 
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I understand your concerns, but we have to try something different in how the church is managed. I think lay people need more of a say in management and operations. Now there is too much secrecy, no oversight, no checks and balances.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. We must do something different since what we are doing now is just not working.

We need to act like Jesus and go into the temple and throw out the money changers…so to speak.
 
beischel said:
I understand your concerns, but we have to try something different in how the church is managed.
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Except this “different”:
  1. Assumes that lay people are somehow immune to the same problems that got us here. They aren’t. It may seem that way in the current climate, but given the existence of similar sexual abuse and silence in other sectors - Hollywood among the most famous recently - the lay people clearly aren’t immune.
  2. Has a very clear avenue for lay people to abuse their power, not just in sexual abuse and coverups, but also to attempt to affect religious change. This is a massive oversight of the plan.
  3. Isn’t really that unique when taking into consideration the whole of Christianity. Plenty of systems have put the congregants, government, wealthy, or some other group in control of finances and management. While it sometimes doesn’t cause too many problems, pretty much every group has created problems.
Furthermore, attempts to bring about change did come in the Dallas Charter, and despite these revelations being recent, what they are revealing are not recent events. The vast majority of cases predate the Dallas Charter, and while there is still room for improvement, the American Church already isn’t approaching the issue the same way it did in the 80s.
beischel said:
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
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And it’s “the dumbest thing a smart person ever said”. Even then, as already noted, I’m not sure how your solution is at all any less insane by this definition.
 
ZMystiCat, first I would say it should be very different; but like anything, we’ll never know unless we try. Clearly what we are doing now is not working. In fact, I would tend to believe that they way things are today, it is no wonder they are NOT working.

Bishops and priests for the most part are not educated in business, accounting, personnel matters. Their post high school education for the most part is religious. Second, because they are not married, they do not have that spouse around keeping them in line and moral.

Anyone can abuse power. No one is immune from temptation. But with the mess we have today, we need to try something to see if we can have better oversight and a system of checks and balances.

The reason we have accounting firms audit the books is because we cannot trust management to oversee themselves and govern themselves properly. We need a lay board to oversee the churches and the archdiocese and dioceses. Bishops and priests should not be investigating themselves and overseeing themselves. We need “outside” people to provide a check and balance to the system and if you will audit the religious to make sure they are acting proper and in the best interests of the parish communities.

I also suspect that abuse has been happening for hundreds of years and has always been hidden away. Meaning even though the abuses are not recent as you state, if we don’t put in some checks and balances, the abuse will happen again as it is inevitable with the current management structure of the church.

As for the absolutely famous and well used quote on insanity, it is very common in the business world and makes a very valid point. It is far from the dumbest statement as it is incredibly insightful and absolutely correct.

Here’s another one I am sure you have heard, people who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it in the future.

I would like to point you to a Gallop Poll article. As you will see, Catholic Church attendance has been on a continual decline for the past 50+ years. Protestant attendance has remained flat.

You may believe that doing nothing is the best action. Kodak, Blockbuster Video, and many other companies and organizations thought the same way. Keep the course steady. They are all out of business or the organization ceased to exist.

Without a growing or even steady number of Catholics, we will never have the money contributed to support all the church programs. As is the Catholic School system is collapsing as families can no longer afford a Catholic eduction for their children. I also find it interesting as fewer and fewer children attend Catholic schools; fewer and fewer parent attend church on a regular basis. I think they go hand-in-hand. Without our Catholic schools, I know many parents feel that the church is just not that special from any other church and why many are moving to churches like Crossroads in the Cincinnati area. Our archdiocese even sent one of our priests to this megachurch to see why so many Catholic were going there instead of their parishes.


JMHO
 
It’s like surgery I guess.

We have to lay bare the root of infection in order to treat it.

Painful but necessary.
 
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beischel said:
but like anything, we’ll never know unless we try
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If you know before trying that it has problems, you don’t move forward without addressing those problems.
beischel said:
Second, because they are not married, they do not have that spouse around keeping them in line and moral.
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Are you serious? Are you seriously saying people need a spouse to stay in line? If so, I’m speechless.
beischel said:
Bishops and priests should not be investigating themselves and overseeing themselves.
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Investigation and financial management are not the same thing. And for what it’s worth, we do have third parties investigating the Church. They just aren’t working for the Church. That’s where these reports are coming from.
beischel said:
I also suspect that abuse has been happening for hundreds of years and has always been hidden away. Meaning even though the abuses are not recent as you state, if we don’t put in some checks and balances, the abuse will happen again as it is inevitable with the current management structure of the church.
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To be honest, I’m pretty sure the social media age will sort this out naturally. It’s a lot harder to hide now than it was even ten years ago. Ultimately, it comes down to whether or not the Church is willing to embrace the transparency necessary to avoid appearing like an accomplice to these horrors.
beischel said:
Here’s another one I am sure you have heard, people who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it in the future.
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I never said change shouldn’t happen. I said the changes that you proposed are a bad idea.
beischel said:
I would like to point you to a Gallop Poll article. As you will see, Catholic Church attendance has been on a continual decline for the past 50+ years. Protestant attendance has remained flat.
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And at this point I think you went off topic. I fail to see how lowered Church attendance is a sign that we need to put lay people in charge of the finances.
 
There is no way to know an idea will fail unless you actually make an effort. I suspect you have never successfully managed anything with that kind of attitude.

You also missed the point on the lower church attendance. If the church were doing so well it would attract people. What is happening is that it is chasing people away in this country and Europe. Just like Blockbuster and Kodak, when you don’t meet the needs of the people, they leave.

When people see their church is corrupt, not meeting their spiritual needs and the needs of their children, not listening to them, and govern the sheep with arrogance, they vote with their feet.

Your second to last sentence, well I agree with the first four words of your statement.

And yes seriously, spouses have done an excellent of keeping their other partner in line for thousands of years. It’s why my father would only hire married men in the businesses he successfully managed and I can say, even saved from going out of business. He knew a spouse helped steady the man, keep him grounded, and help him mature. Thus I can see how priests living alone could have wandered into some of the situations that have plagued the church. Who is watching out for them.

In any case, you don’t seem to like my suggestions, but I fail to see how the young people and social media are going to right the ship - especially when they are the group with the lowest attendance at mass.
 
Do you mean to say that the pedophiles in the church wouldn’t have molested children if they were married?

Pedophilia, which is an inclination, is not cured by marriage. A pedophile who gets married is a married pedophile. A lot of child molestation take place within families. A lot of pedophiles are married and have sadly molested their own children.

I am single and live alone. I have not turned into a pedophile.
 
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beischel said:
There is no way to know an idea will fail unless you actually make an effort.
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Yes, there is. You can consider similar or identical cases elsewhere. America already dealt with trusteeism, and there’s a reason that the American Church, and the Catholic Church in general, moved away from it.
beischel said:
I suspect you have never successfully managed anything with that kind of attitude.
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I have, and part of managing something is to challenge ideas. It isn’t just about trying something different.
beischel said:
You also missed the point on the lower church attendance. If the church were doing so well it would attract people.
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As far as I can tell, this is still totally divorced from any necessity to put lay people in charge of finances and personal management. I never said it wasn’t a problem, but I’m not going down this rabbit trail if you don’t clearly link it to the discussion at hand.
beischel said:
And yes seriously, spouses have done an excellent of keeping their other partner in line for thousands of years.
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And single people have lived morally for thousands of years.
beischel said:
Thus I can see how priests living alone could have wandered into some of the situations that have plagued the church.
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Are you saying that celibacy is leading them to sexually abuse people? If that were the case, we’d see a considerably higher rate of sexual predation compared to the general population, but we don’t.

Or are you saying that this is what’s keeping them quiet? Bear in mind, husbands doing bad things often don’t tell their wives the bad things that they’re doing. Even if they do, the wife may not disclose it.
beischel said:
I fail to see how the young people and social media are going to right the ship - especially when they are the group with the lowest attendance at mass
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I was not speaking in the context of Church attendance. I was very clearly addressing the hiddenness of abuse cases. I’m saying that it is a lot harder to keep such things secret today, and such a cultural shift might encourage more self-imposed transparency. It might not, but unlike trusteeism, we really don’t have a reference point for this.
Sarcelle said:
I am single and live alone. I have not turned into a pedophile.
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Yeah, as a single guy, I can say that these implications that single people are somehow inclined towards immorality is downright insulting.
 
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It beggars belief that the single person who cannot control himself or herself from falling into immorality due to being single can now suddenly prevent another from immorality when married.

If this were the case, we wouldn’t see the several posts of wives lamenting their husband’s addiction to porn. Worst is the implication that a wife whose husband is addicted to porn could be at fault for failing to prevent her husband from obtaining this addiction.
 
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beischel . . .
At least I got her (mom) to see a priest on her death bed and she received the sacraments just prior to her death.
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(Parenthetical addition mine for context.)

Nice work beischel! You did the right thing.

God bless.

Cathoholic
 
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Wow, so we’re off on trusteeism now. First, trusteeism is not what I am referring to. The issue with that system is that it still is under the complete control of the bishop so we are back to the issue of who has oversight of the bishop. Again, it lacks a system of checks and balances. In other words, who is overseeing the overseer?

The property owned by the church is acquired and built with the money of the people. The church does not generate any wealth on its own. Churches are closed at the will of the bishop with no (name removed by moderator)ut from the parishioners who built the church with their hard earned money. To make matters worse, the money that the parishioners donated for the expressed purpose of building and supporting the church is just taken away with the parishioners left with nothing. That practice is wrong. The lay need to have a say in these decisions.

As for the celibacy, homosexuality and pedophilia. Some recent studies have shown that the issue with pedophilia is more related to the large number of homosexual priests admitted to the priesthood in that children just became an easier target and maybe one they could more easily control than adults. This is not to say that some were not just pedophiles, but the issue is more complex and has a lot to do with priests who were just homosexuals.

I do think that forced celibacy is a cause and I do think that allowing priests to marry would reduce future issues around sex scandals of any type and allow a growth in the number of priests.
 
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Allowing priests to get married or ordaining married men?

Big difference between the two. Even the Orthodox churches do not allow priests to get married but they do ordain married men.

By the way, so does the Catholic Church.

As for forced celibacy, it’s not exactly a secret that celibacy is the norm for Catholic priests. No one is going around forcibly ordaining men to the priesthood. As far as I know, these men have made the choice to be a priest and in so doing also made the choice to be celibate.

If you want to talk about forced celibacy causing abuse, there are a lot of single men who are not priests who would love to get married but cannot. Do you see them with suspicion because according to you they are likely to be sex offenders due to forced celibacy?
 
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I just shake my head at the fact that this is Card. DiNardo’s diocese. The same man who heads the USCCB and is supposed to be leading the reform effort for the US church!!! :confused:😒
 
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