Here we go again. Archdiocese being raided by authorities

[twf]

Our archdiocese even sent one of our priests to this megachurch to see why so many Catholic were going there instead of their parishes.

Isn’t that one easy? Its entertaining (smoke machines and loud booming music and joke cracking charismatic pastors)…they preach a much easier Gospel…and you don’t have to think about the sex abuse scandal (unless one happens to break out in your local megachurch… but unlike the Catholic Church there is no umbrella institution to be impacted). On top of that, some of them promise the faithful health and wealth… yeah, on the surface its appealing. Its akin to asking why people eat Big Macs instead of steaks.

 

[ZMystiCat]

Wow, so we’re off on trusteeism now. First, trusteeism is not what I am referring to.

Honestly, you haven’t given a whole lot of details. The very little info you’ve given sounds like trusteeism, but as of right now, it’s a very vaguely-defined idea that you don’t seem particularly interested in fleshing out when challenged.

The issue with that system is that it still is under the complete control of the bishop

In what little capacity it remains, that is the case. Based on what admittedly little reading I’ve done of it, though, it was much more democratic during the early days.

This is not to say that some were not just pedophiles, but the issue is more complex and has a lot to do with priests who were just homosexuals.

So wait, now the problem is with people with SSA, not celibates?

I do think that forced celibacy is a cause

1. Celibacy doesn’t cause SSA.
2. Celibacy doesn’t cause pedophilia.
3. Celibacy doesn’t cause sexual abuse.

I’ve mentioned it before, and I’ll mention it again: The priesthood, even with the scandals in mind, has not an issue with this exceeding that of the general population. If celibacy were really a factor here, we’d expect to see noticeably higher rates than the general population.

 

[irenaeus1]

I have it on good authority that the archdiocese of Galveston-Houston has been cooperating with an FBI agent for the last two weeks to compile the requested files. The news story seems a bit sensationalized about seizing documents in a raid.

 

[beischel]

ZMystiCat, you have an excellent ability to twist things around much like many politicians I know.

First, when you say I have not given a lot of details. Frankly I am making general suggestions on possibilities. The Church here has significant issues. Gone are the days of Catholics being completely obedient to the dictates from the bishops. The bishops cannot be trusted; that is a fact. They have proven this over and over.

What we need are lay commissions working with the religious to come up with a management structure of checks and balances and that decisions on non-religious matters involve the lay people.

Second, humans are sexual beings. Celibacy is un-natural for most people. Can some people deal with celibacy? Surely. Can most people, no. In fact, the AMA has shown that sexually active men have a much lower rate of prostate cancer. Sexual relations are healthy for people.

Third, is celibacy the cause of the sexual issues within the Church. You can make your statement that it is not, but clearly you are not correct. Is it the cause in all cases? No, is it the cause in some cases? Yes, without a doubt and if you have ever had conversations with de-frocked priests who have been involved in some of these instances like I have, then you would have learned in some cases it IS the cause.

If the Church is going to base what they do on Apostolic Tradition, then allowing priests to marry is fully within the early tradition of the Church. Some of the Apostles were indeed married. Scripture even makes reference to Peter’s mother-in-law.

While celibacy is not the main issue that men do not become priests today, and I have it on great authority from the priest who used to run vocations for our archdiocese, money or lack thereof, is the main reason men are not becoming priests. If priest could marry I would have seriously considered becoming a priest. I know a deacon that told me he WOULD have become a priest if allowed to marry. So I know celibacy is one of the reason men are not becoming priests.

I just wonder how long the Church can continue with a continuing reduction in the number of priests? I know a parish priest in my area who said the bishop wanted him to take on another three parishes for a total of four and he told the bishop if forced to do so, he would retire. We are killing these men with the burden of having to do so much with so little time. Not to mention, the parishioners are not getting much benefit or spiritual guidance when their priest is just not available.

 

[Sarcelle]

You will have to back up your assertion that celibacy is the cause of sexual abuse in the Church.

Celibacy is present in the Church and in general society. Your assertion that celibacy is forced in the Church is also wrong. Celibacy is a discipline in the Church and no one is forcing men to become priests. When men choose to become priests, they also choose to be celibate.

Now let us focus on general society. There are men who are truly forced to become celibate. They had no choice in the matter. You may have heard of them. They’re called incels. If you look at conviction rates for sex offenders, are the majority of them incels?

Sex crimes are mostly about power and the assertion of power over the victims. It has very little to do with sex or the lack of it. Rapists and rape victim will tell you the same thing. An otherwise good man who has had not sex for any reason, will not turn into a sex offender.

Sexual relations do not prevent people from being sex offenders. Sexual relations do not prevent people from being addicted to porn. A lot of children are sexually molested by their own fathers.

 

[beischel]

Again, and I think I was clear in my statements. I did not state that celibacy was the only cause of sexual abuse or sexual activity with adults while in the priesthood, nuns, deacons, etc.

I will state this again: Celibacy can be just one of the causes of sexual abuse/inappropriate sexual behavior with children and/or adults. It is not the sole cause. It is one of the many causations of inappropriate sexual behaviors in the Church.

What causes a religious or lay person to take up inappropriate or abusive sexual behavior it very dependent on the individual person involved in said behavior.

So if we can eliminate one of the causations, then we reduce the potential for future problems.

 

[irenaeus1]

I will state this again: Celibacy can be just one of the causes of sexual abuse/inappropriate sexual behavior with children and/or adults. It is not the sole cause. It is one of the many causations of inappropriate sexual behaviors in the Church.

While celibacy may be one of the causes of the shortage of vocations to the priesthood, it is NOT a cause of sexual abuse in the priesthood. Are you claiming that if we had allowed these very same priests who have been credibly accused of sexual abuse (keeping in mind that slightly greater than 80% of the sexual abuse is with other males) to have wives, they would not have committed such sexually deviant behavior with minors, adolescents, other men, other seminarians, and/or other priests? Are you kidding me? As if these are the sorts of men who should be married, and their marriage would be a solution to their gross sexual deviancy and immorality.

 

[Sarcelle]

Below is a link that tell what law enforcement knows about sexual assaults.

https://www.meganslaw.ca.gov/mobile/Education_MythsAndFacts.aspx

Notice that it says most rape offenders are married.

 

[ZMystiCat]

Celibacy can be just one of the causes of sexual abuse/inappropriate sexual behavior with children and/or adults.

But you have yet to show that it is even one cause. Even if it is just one cause, there would still be clear evidence to support such a claim beyond mere intuition. Again, if celibacy is a cause of sexual abuse, we’d expect to see it at much higher rates among a mostly celibate population than among the general population. You have yet to show that that is the case.

 

[Sarcelle]

The basis for the assumption that celibacy is one of the causes for sexual assault is faulty.

As law enforcement and profilers know about sexual assault is that sexual gratification or the lack of it is not the primary motivation for attacks.

It is a sense of power and the power to violate another. Sexual assault is usually connected to psychopathology.

 

[beischel]

Sarcelle, your response is based on selective reading. I did not say it was the only reason and thus is not faulty. You correctly stated that lack of sexual gratification is not the primary motivation; but it is the motivation for some instances.

Also I am not referring to just molestation of children, but also the affairs that heterosexual priests have had with adult women and homosexual priests have had with men. Clearly, their desire is bases on gratification either physical or emotional.

Celibacy came about as the result of European inheritance laws hundreds of years ago and the fear of the Church losing property through inheritance; no heirs, no worry. Because if we based the decision of celibacy on Apostolic Tradition, then celibacy violates that since some Apostles were clearly married.

Forced celibacy is wrong and can be one of the issue impacting the church. Furthermore, violations of celibacy have most likely been happening in the Church for a very long time. But it has been well hidden in the past and only come to light in the last 50 or so years.

 

[Sarcelle]

I take issue with the fact that you imply that single people are somehow more prone to immorality than married people. The choice to exercise virtue or not is the same for both marrieds and singles. Married people are not exempt from sexual immorality.

I also still stand by the fact that men who go into the priesthood know that celibacy is required of them. They know it and they still got ordained. They freely made that choice so I don’t see how that celibacy requirement was forced upon them.

 

[beischel]

For are free to take issue with anyone’s position. We don’t all agree. But what you are trying to do is put everyone in the same box. You’re single and moral so everyone who is single and moral must also be moral. And I agree that everyone who is married is not moral. Neither are all single people. But like various causations can cause a married person to be unfaithful, there are also various causations that can make a celibate person to violate that way of life.

There are two issues with celibacy. First, it is indeed forced. To be a priest you must agree to not marry, not have sexual relations, live alone for the most part being without companionship of a woman. God commanded that humans are to “be fruitful and multiply.” Forcing someone to not be fruitful is not living up to the wishes of God. God did not command someone to be single nor did He command anyone to marry, so if you want to live single and not marry, that is your choice. It was not forced on you for the purpose of a particular career. If you are called to serve the faithful as a priest, you are forced to remain celibate.

Second, the Church bases much on Apostolic Tradition. If that is the case, the Church is in violation of that tradition because some Apostles were clearly married. Thus we are not following the tradition of the early Church and the early Church fathers like St. Peter.

 

[Sarcelle]

Actually celibacy was forced on me.

In spite of my desire to get married, my engagement was broken due to my other half getting cold feet.

I was able through God’s Grace live a chaste life. I am very sure I am not the only one. There are single lay people who in spite of their desire have not been able to get married. There are divorced people, who because of their spouse leaving them, are in a state of forced celibacy. They cannot get married again unless they get an annulment. Yes there are those of us who are technically free to get married but for whatever reason, cannot get married. If that is not forced celibacy, I don’t know what is.

There are lots of lay people and priests who are living a life of chastity suitable to their state of life.

We should blame the priests who have betrayed Christ and not the discipline of celibacy. Christ Himself would not have been celibate if celibacy itself is a bad thing.

 

[Here-I-am-Lord]

In spite of my desire to get married, my engagement was broken due to my other half getting cold feet.

Wow, this is sad.

Actually celibacy was forced on me.

Lol, I understand… Looks like we got a message contrary from what we have learned. The message from the top is that sinning is okay. If a priest is not celibate, that is easily forgiven. Consensual, they say and don’t care. But then lay people feel the same way. "Sexual transgression is no big deal. I am only following the example of my priest. "

Well, looks like we got a sure path to hell.

 

[prayerrider]

Absolutely. A married priest with a family, despite his best intentions, will always have big distractions.

 

[beischel]

What worse is that many priests today are so distracted trying to run two, three or four parishes. So would I rather have two married priests at EACH parish or a priest that is distracted by running multiple parishes? I’d rather have more priests. Even if distracted with their own family issues. At least they would be able to relate to me and the distractions I have with my family and work. The question is how are we going to be able to have a sufficient number of priests? Because what we are doing now is not working; we do not have enough priests and the situation does not appear to be getting better.

 

[Sarcelle]

The solution probably lies in ordaining married men.

Ordaining married deacons is a good start.

 

[Sarcelle]

I agree.

Ordaining married men may be a solution to the priest shortage.

 

[Sarcelle]

I agree.

What made the scandal into an even worst scandal was the cover-up that ensued after the abuse.

This was a mistake and shouldn’t be repeated.

As for this shortage, the priesthood is no longer seen as a desirable vocation in this increasingly secularized society.